Heresy 127

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 127, the latest edition of the thread that takes a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire and sometimes turns things upside down.

Heresy covers a wide variety of subjects, but is largely about questioning some of the popular assumptions that the Wall and the Nights Watch were created to keep the Others at bay - and that the story is going to end with Jon Snow being identified as both the lost Targaryen heir and as Azor Ahai – seated on a dragon. However, as the story has progressed it’s become clear that nothing is as it seems. For a start if the white walkers really are Craster’s sons then they’re clearly not an invading army but more akin to the Bloody Mummers - and that obviously raises the question of who is really behind them and why?

That’s just one example because heresy is about trying to figure out what’s really going on, by looking at clues in the text itself, and in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology such as the Cu Chulainn cycle, the Morrigan and the Mabinogion, all the way through to Narnia and the original Land of Always Winter.

Stepping into the world of Heresy might appear confusing, but we are engaged in an exercise in chaos theory. It’s about making connections, sometimes real sometimes thematic, between east and west, between the various beliefs and types of magick - and also about reconciling the dodgy timelines. While most threads in this forum concentrate on a particular issue, we therefore range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, in an effort to try and reach an understanding of what may really be happening through the resulting collision of ideas. However, beyond the firm belief that things are not as they seem, there is no such thing as an accepted heretic view on Craster’s sons or any of the other topics, and the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics

A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found essays on seven major topics in heresy, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each of the essays to the relevant discussion thread, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

[Black Crow]

And just for the continuity bit, Heresy 126 was latterly looking at the significance of Maester Aemon's abrupt volte face and how having revealed himself to Jon, [in what was a very powerful scene], to be Aemon Targaryen by way of bringing home to him that as a man of the Watch he had given up his family and his name, he then in an equally powerful scene he insisted that Jon should take command precisely because:

"You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

From where we've been exploring the strong evidence that just as there must be a Stark in Winterfell so it appears that there must also be a Stark on the Wall

[TheButcherCrow]

contd from H126

2. The old gods mark the CoTF with red or green eyes to receive the gift (Greenseer). Not sure I agree with your understanding here unless I am missing something.

" In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of a forest. by these signs do the old gods mark those they have chosen for the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. a thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers." Bran ADoD

It's me that's reading it wrong, I always took the "red eyes/green eyes" thing to mean "skinchanger/greendreamer" (respectively) but rereading it there, that's not at all what BR is suggesting and I'm left wondering why I ever came to that conclusion in the first place :dunno:

[Black Crow]

Its worth bearing in mind that red and green are related colours in that the commonest form of colour-blindness is an inability to distinguish between them

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

1.Har!!! Bran the new nights King and i agree he is definitely different :eek:

2. The old gods mark the CoTF with red or green eyes to receive the gift (Greenseer). Not sure I agree with your understanding here unless I am missing something.

" In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of a forest. by these signs do the old gods mark those they have chosen for the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. a thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers." Bran ADoD

3. GRRM has stated in an SSM that there is a reason for Hodor being the way he is and we will find out later in the books why that is. He also said that we would find out the reasons as to why he would not go down in to the winterfell crypts in a GoT and yet went down there with Bran and the gang in CoK.

Good questions and good post, redrose! I wondered the same thing about greenseer aging as I was reading through a Bran chapter the other day. It struck me as odd that, even though the caves only house "three score" Singers, Bran (as Hodor) finds an entire room full of what appear to be seated greenseers (of the Singer variety), apparently still living. At first glance, that didn't seem to jive with the line you quoted above - that a "gifted" singer is born only "once in a great while"... at least, the proportions seem a bit off. The simple resolution, I guess, is to say... well, Singers live a super-long time anyway (in human terms), so if their greenseers live even longer, then it's plausible to imagine scads of greenseer Singers still operational long after the other - uh, unplugged? - Singers dwindle away. I also wondered whether "three score" ends up being a large or a small number. I mean, Meera seems to think it's not that many... and the fact that Bran was brought there at all sort of leaves us thinking the place might be CotF HQ... but it's possible there are other Singer communities in other places. (But maybe all the greenseers are brought to HQ, and hardwired into the Weirnet mainframe? :dunno: )

And re: Hodor. I wonder about this off and on, and I do think Hodor fits a certain fairy tale archetype rather well - the human child "blessed" with knowledge of the fairy realm, able to see the fae creatures... but struck dumb and branded as "simple" by other men. A great example of this is the Bee Boy, in Kipling's Puck of Pook's Hill. Long ago, his umpteenth grandmother, the Widow Whitgift, helped the fairies in a time of great need out of the goodness of her heart - freely, not asking any bargain, etc. In return, the local fairy pledged that, "So long as Whitgift blood lasted... there would allers be one o' her stock that—that no Trouble 'ud lie on, no Maid 'ud sigh on, no Night could frighten, no Fright could harm, no Harm could make sin, an' no Woman could make a fool of." Or, as the family remembered it - "there was always to be one of 'em that could see further into a millstone than most." In Kipling's story, the Bee Boy (Hobden's son) is the heir of this blessing. His mother recognized that "when [she] first found he wasn't like others," and by reputation he sounds a lot like Hodor: he's "not quite right in his head, but... can pick up swarms of bees in his naked hands." He also knows and is known by the fairies, who remain hidden to other humans.

Now, what does Martin do with that? I don't know. Martin's (so far) remained very subtle with his magic... so maybe it's enough for now that Hodor can wander the caverns in the cave of bones to see and visit Singers that Bran himself can't. As you noted, he also seemed to have some awareness of danger in the Winterfell crypts beyond what Bran, Luwin, and Osha could sense. In a way, Hodor behaved more like a direwolf than a human, in terms of his unwillingness to descend those stairs (like Summer, at least - and like Ghost did at the Fist of the First Men) - as if he had a similar kind of sixth sense. So there's definitely more going on with this "stableboy" than meets the eye.

(BTW - If you have a link to Martin's comments on Hodor, I'd love to re-read what he had to say about it. Every now and then this topic comes up, but I haven't ever saved a copy of the SSM / interview...)

[Black Crow]

As I recall all that GRRM said that there was a reason why Hodor is that way and that we'd find out in due course. I have to agree with redrose that its most likely he went down into the crypts one day, passed up the offer of a piece of Lyanna's wedding cake and instead went down to the forbidden levels where he discovered that some things really do go bump in the night.

So yes, I think that Hodor's "condition" will turn out to be significant, not just in itself but in relation to what's really in the crypts.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Martin on Hodor and the crypts

HODOR AND THE CRYPTS

After rereading both AGOT and ACOK I was wondering about one question: Why was Hodor not afraid of the crypts under Winterfell at the end of ACOK? In AGOT Hodor was very afraid of the crypts, he wouldn't take Bran down there, but in ACOK he stayed with Bran and Rickon in the crypt for quite a while, how did he stay there if he was so afraid?

Hodor was only afraid of the crypts =at that specific time.= Not before and not after.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Hodor_and_the_Crypts

I wonder why he is saying "Hodor" all the time, his actual name is Walder isn't it? Does the word Hodor have a hidden meaning or clue of some sort?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

As I recall all that GRRM said that there was a reason why Hodor is that way and that we'd find out in due course. I have to agree with redrose that its most likely he went down into the crypts one day, passed up the offer of a piece of Lyanna's wedding cake and instead went down to the forbidden levels where he discovered that some things really do go bump in the night.

So yes, I think that Hodor's "condition" will turn out to be significant, not just in itself but in relation to what's really in the crypts.

Well, yes. There is the specific context - that particular time that Hodor was afraid to enter the crypts, and seemed to know something others did not. And then there are questions about Hodor more generally - his family heritage, his remarkable size and strength, the meaning of "Hodor," etc. I just can't help wondering whether the specific context and the larger mysteries are related in some way... and that's where my commentary came from.

Martin on Hodor and the crypts

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Hodor_and_the_Crypts

I wonder why he is saying "Hodor" all the time, his actual name is Walder isn't it? Does the word Hodor have a hidden meaning or clue of some sort?

Thanks! :)

[Ygritte]

Martin on Hodor and the crypts

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Hodor_and_the_Crypts

I wonder why he is saying "Hodor" all the time, his actual name is Walder isn't it? Does the word Hodor have a hidden meaning or clue of some sort?

Well, Hodr is a Norse god, FWIW.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6%C3%B0r

[redrose]

Good questions and good post, redrose! I wondered the same thing about greenseer aging as I was reading through a Bran chapter the other day. It struck me as odd that, even though the caves only house "three score" Singers, Bran (as Hodor) finds an entire room full of what appear to be seated greenseers (of the Singer variety), apparently still living. At first glance, that didn't seem to jive with the line you quoted above - that a "gifted" singer is born only "once in a great while"... at least, the proportions seem a bit off. The simple resolution, I guess, is to say... well, Singers live a super-long time anyway (in human terms), so if their greenseers live even longer, then it's plausible to imagine scads of greenseer Singers still operational long after the other - uh, unplugged? - Singers dwindle away. I also wondered whether "three score" ends up being a large or a small number. I mean, Meera seems to think it's not that many... and the fact that Bran was brought there at all sort of leaves us thinking the place might be CotF HQ... but it's possible there are other Singer communities in other places. (But maybe all the greenseers are brought to HQ, and hardwired into the Weirnet mainframe? :dunno: )

And re: Hodor. I wonder about this off and on, and I do think Hodor fits a certain fairy tale archetype rather well - the human child "blessed" with knowledge of the fairy realm, able to see the fae creatures... but struck dumb and branded as "simple" by other men. A great example of this is the Bee Boy, in Kipling's Puck of Pook's Hill. Long ago, his umpteenth grandmother, the Widow Whitgift, helped the fairies in a time of great need out of the goodness of her heart - freely, not asking any bargain, etc. In return, the local fairy pledged that, "So long as Whitgift blood lasted... there would allers be one o' her stock that—that no Trouble 'ud lie on, no Maid 'ud sigh on, no Night could frighten, no Fright could harm, no Harm could make sin, an' no Woman could make a fool of." Or, as the family remembered it - "there was always to be one of 'em that could see further into a millstone than most." In Kipling's story, the Bee Boy (Hobden's son) is the heir of this blessing. His mother recognized that "when [she] first found he wasn't like others," and by reputation he sounds a lot like Hodor: he's "not quite right in his head, but... can pick up swarms of bees in his naked hands." He also knows and is known by the fairies, who remain hidden to other humans.

Now, what does Martin do with that? I don't know. Martin's (so far) remained very subtle with his magic... so maybe it's enough for now that Hodor can wander the caverns in the cave of bones to see and visit Singers that Bran himself can't. As you noted, he also seemed to have some awareness of danger in the Winterfell crypts beyond what Bran, Luwin, and Osha could sense. In a way, Hodor behaved more like a direwolf than a human, in terms of his unwillingness to descend those stairs (like Summer, at least - and like Ghost did at the Fist of the First Men) - as if he had a similar kind of sixth sense. So there's definitely more going on with this "stableboy" than meets the eye.

(BTW - If you have a link to Martin's comments on Hodor, I'd love to re-read what he had to say about it. Every now and then this topic comes up, but I haven't ever saved a copy of the SSM / interview...)

The numbers don't add up? One in a million is a greenseer and here we are in a cave with 3 score CoTF. Unless I'm mistaken 3 score is 60 and as you pointed out Brodor walks through a cavern full of singers hooked up to the weirnet. He also notices half a dozen human skulls but I can't discern whether they were entwined in weir wood roots (greenseer become part of the godhead) or whether that was just the CoTF bones……as always the writing is too ambiguous to say for sure. Thats why i was asking Alienarena about the human greenseers as in textual terms we have only seen 1 human greenseer and that is BR who has the weir wood roots growing through his body. This is how I see the greenseers becoming part of the godhead as in they become part of the tree and its root system.

Thanks for posting the link Khaleesi as I'm rather computer illiterate. I have a lot more to add with regards the ambiguities in the last Bran chapter of ADoD but alas it is late in my neck of the woods and Bedfordshire is calling :cheers:

[Ygritte]

Well, Hodr is a Norse god, FWIW.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6%C3%B0r

As for how he could tie in, I'm wondering if Bran-warging-Hodor will shoot someone or something important with weirwood arrows (such as a dragon, or a major character).

[TheButcherCrow]

Just ran through all instances of the word/name "Hodor" in agot (73 in total). Here are the interesting ones:

Could be Hodor saw him, the talk is that boy’s been acting queer, but simple as he is…”

-Catelyn III

Bran wondered if he would shrivel up as small as his great-grandmother when he was old. It did not seem likely, even if Hodor lived to be a thousand.

-Bran IV

and here is the entire bit about him not wanting to go down inrto the crypts

The mention of dreams reminded him. “I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.”

“And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube.

“It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. “Hodor won’t go down into the crypts.” The maester had only been half listening, Bran could tell. He lifted his eye from the tube, blinking.

“Hodor won’t…”

“Go down into the crypts. When I woke, I told him to take me down, to see if Father was truly there. At first he didn’t know what I was saying, but I got him to the steps by telling him to go here and go there, only then he wouldn’t go down. He just stood on the top step and said ‘Hodor,’ like he was scared of the dark, but I had a torch. It made me so mad I almost gave him a swat in the head, like Old Nan is always doing.” He saw the way the maester was frowning and hurriedly added, “I didn’t, though.”

“Good. Hodor is a man, not a mule to be beaten.”

“In the dream I flew down with the crow, but I can’t do that when I’m awake,” Bran explained.

“Why would you want to go down to the crypts?”

“I told you. To look for Father.” The maester tugged at the chain around his neck, as he often did when he was uncomfortable.

“Bran, sweet child, one day Lord Eddard will sit below in stone, beside his father and his father’s father and all the Starks back to the old Kings in the North… but that will not be for many years, gods be good. Your father is a prisoner of the queen in King’s Landing. You will not find him in the crypts.”

“He was there last night. I talked to him.”

“Stubborn boy,” the maester sighed, setting his book aside. “Would you like to go see?”

“I can’t. Hodor won’t go, and the steps are too narrow and twisty for Dancer.”

“I believe I can solve that difficulty."

-Bran VII

I'll do the rest of the books in due course.

Really interesting (to me anyway) is that Hodor had been "acting queer" as early as Cat 3. That's just after the attempt on Bran's life btw, the quote is from Hallis Mollen talking to Cat, Robb & Theon.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

No problem redrose and snowfyre, though I didn't manage to find any other SSM about Hodor (where he said that we'd eventually get to know more about why he is like he is, or similar) so maybe he said that in some other kind of interview.

Well, Hodr is a Norse god, FWIW.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6%C3%B0r

As for how he could tie in, I'm wondering if Bran-warging-Hodor will shoot someone or something important with weirwood arrows (such as a dragon, or a major character).

That's true, it would be pretty similar to the mythological Hodr getting duped by Loki into unintentionally killing Baldr. But in-story so to say, could "Hodor" mean anything?

[Ygritte]

No problem, though I didn't manage to find any other SSM about Hodor (where he said that we'd eventually get to know more about why he is like he is, or similar) so maybe he said that in some other kind of interview.

That's true, it would add up pretty well. But in-story so to say, could "Hodor" mean anything?

Well, it doesn't ring any bells for me, in terms of reminding me of important words from the story. So maybe there's something I'm missing, or maybe it sounds like something in another language that will be revealed later.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Well, it doesn't ring any bells for me, in terms of reminding me of important words from the story. So maybe there's something I'm missing, or maybe it sounds like something in another language that will be revealed later.

Me neither. Though when looking around for that GRRM interview about Hodor I found a thread on these boards where someone mentioned that "Hodor" and "R´hlorr" sound a bit similar. But, that sounds like a stretch I think.

[butterbumps!]

I think magic is something atlease "worked magic" is something humans were already dabbling in, i think that link points to Essos.However i don't think they had the reverence for it when it comes to wisdom in its usage. It was not a means to an end it seems with them,just a wildly used means. I think and believe the grown men transformation as well,we only have to look at he ledgend of the Shrouded Lord/NK to see that it is possible atlease to me some men may have given their souls over to a manifestation of magic.I will draw again the parallel of the the goddess and the consort king.Kind of a "Great Rite'. In some traditions whomever the magic chose would take on the form of a woman to complete the "sacred marraige".

So i think there is a lot of transformation taking place and i bet it had to alot to do with something special in the bloodline period of people from Esoss. They have it in their blood and used that to do a lot of sorcery.I also find it highly unlikely that noone ventured over the land bridge exploring prior to the mass FM migration.

I completely agree that "dabbling" in magic by humans has been going on for a very long time. I'd gotten the impression that the CotF might have helped the FM start to dabble, while it might have been figured out separately in Essos. I'm not wed to that impression, though.

I really wonder where Martin's going with this in terms of origins. Will it be like with our own anthropology of several ancestors emerging in different locations, or is he going with a more singular "first man" genesis, from which all other men come? I think it's possible that he's giving us a "Cradle of Civilization" with the Vaes Dothrak area, but that's something different from the dawn of man, though would still give us at least a singular cultural origin.

I bring that up only because I think that anthropological question might be relevant in terms of whether Martin's designed everything so that it comes from a single source that then dispersed. Which would probably include magical dabblings, as well as religions and gods. That question's always been a bit of a mystery to me in terms of whether humans on both continents figured out how to work magic separately, or if that came from a single source. Especially because I had the impression the CotF might have taught a few things to the FM (we know they taught men to speak to ravens, but might they have taught them other things?).

Th religions suggest that a split from one might have occurred. The Dothraki worship the sun and moon; the FM's original gods (according to the Borrel on Sweetsister) are the "Lord of the Skies" and the "Lady of the Waves." "Lord of the Skies" makes a great deal of sense as a name for the sun, and "Lady of the Waves" makes sense to me as a name for the moon given that the moon causes tides. Of course, sun and moon are very universal, as is the idea of duality, and it might simply be a comment on the human collective consciousness that 2 separate places developed worship of 2 obvious natural elements. But I lean toward the possibility that everyone in ASOIAF may have actually come from the Vaes Dothrak region-- at least, this was the first civilization from which all come.

I guess the next question is whether man had mastered magic before of after that. Perhaps they had in some capacity, and the FM fled from the effects of that (oppression and so forth), only to have to deal with magic again when they found the CotF. I'm not sure about special bloodlines, though; I tend to think anyone could probably wield magic if conditions were right.

Before the waning hours of Heresy 126 comes to a close I just wanted to say that I'm filing this in the "keep" file. The contrasting differences in how the constellations are named and the possibilities that abound for the sword Dawn are becoming too interesting for me to ignore. As such, I am warming to @redriver's comet/meteorite theory and believe there are many more facts and tid bits of information hovering over the vast planes of Planetos that will provide us some guidance to understanding what has happened in the past. All we need to do is to raise our eyes to the sky.

Thanks butterbumps..... :cheers:

Oh thanks! Yea, I wonder what to make of these things. Cradle versus King's Crown, and Horned Lord versus Stallion especially. I'm not sure what the significance of Shadowcat would be to those South of the Wall, but Moonmaid is a major link-- from the Andal Maid fashioning a woman for Hugor of the Hill, to the Eastern association of the Moon with the female, and even the NK's lady who walked the walls at night.

Butterbumps, I did a quick google search of metals deposited by meteors. One white metal is nickel; searching further revealed nickel is added to steel for strength during forging. There are mines of the metal in the American Southwest. Thought it might plausible be your mystery metal.

I really enjoy your posts. Now back to lurking :-)

lol, thanks. That does make it sound more plausible. To the best of my knowledge, "milkglass" is this. That's at least what the sword looks like when the light hits it.

[TheButcherCrow]

This is not in anyway relevant to the current discussion but it just occured to me. The prince/princess that was promised, if this is as we suspect, a valyrian (spec' Targ) prophecy, isn't it a little strange that it's "prince" ? The valyrians didn't have princes, they were a freehold with no monarchy. The Rhoynar had princes but they were mortal enemies of the dragonlords. So, just a translation issue ? Or is it because the prophecy was made on Dragonstone after the Targs had started to assimilate into westerosi culture ?

[Ygritte]

Me neither. Though when looking around for that GRRM interview about Hodor I found a thread on these boards where someone mentioned that "Hodor" and "R´hlorr" sound a bit similar. But, that sounds like a stretch I think.

I wonder if Hodor is the name of the Great Other, the opposite of R'hllor.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Really interesting (to me anyway) is that Hodor had been "acting queer" as early as Cat 3. That's just after the attempt on Bran's life btw, the quote is from Hallis Mollen talking to Cat, Robb & Theon.

Yeah - the crackpot idea I floated last time we revisited that text was that Bran might not be the first to have skinchanged the stableboy. No support for that at all, really. But a little creepy to consider, nonetheless.

This is not in anyway relevant to the current discussion but it just occured to me. The prince/princess that was promised, if this is as we suspect, a valyrian (spec' Targ) prophecy, isn't it a little strange that it's "prince" ? The valyrians didn't have princes, they were a freehold with no monarchy. The Rhoynar had princes but they were mortal enemies of the dragonlords. So, just a translation issue ? Or is it because the prophecy was made on Dragonstone after the Targs had started to assimilate into westerosi culture ?

Here is my line of thinking on the background of this "prince / dragon" translational issue. To highlight the most relevant bit:

Maester Aemon's statement is... pointing to a gendered translation of the word "dragon" as the equivalent of either "prince" or "princess" in the common tongue. The original word was not necessarily "prince/princess" - but could have simply been "dragon" in a non-gendered language. The translation into Valyrian could have imported a gender association... and not until the Targaryens assumed the Westerosi throne would the word "dragon" have become synonymous with "prince." At that point, the male gender could have been retained primarily on the basis of Valyrian grammar or on the basis of Westerosi patriarchal traditions.

Regardless, Aemon's point (I think) is that the prophecy should more accurately be understood as "The Dragon Who Was Promised" - so all these proofs you read around here about how it must be so-and-so because he's a prince - or it can't be other-guy, because he's not a prince... well, they're argued straight from that error that "crept in."

[Ygritte]

Yeah - the crackpot idea I floated last time we revisited that text was that Bran might not be the first to have skinchanged the stableboy. No support for that at all, really. But a little creepy to consider, nonetheless.

By Bloodraven perhaps? He's been spying on Bran all his life, after all, and maybe he wasn't in a bird the whole time.