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Ashara Dayne


lyannaisalive

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Something that's always confounded me. If Harrenhal was a set up for Rhaegar to start talking to the High Lords, then why on earth wasn't Hoster there. You need the Riverlands if you're planning something

Maybe Rhaegar wants to give Riverlands to Whent and remove Tully?. But the talking was only Varys report, he could've lied to Aerys.

If Frey held a big tourney too, I bet Hoster Tully didn't came as well because the tourney only for Knights not High Lords

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Maybe Rhaegar wants to give Riverlands to Whent and remove Tully?. But the talking was only Varys report, he could've lied to Aerys.

If Frey held a big tourney too, I bet Hoster Tully didn't came as well because the tourney only for Knights not High Lords

We don't know if Hoster was ever knighted. He could have been.

But the Freys would be something completely different. Hoster doesn't like Walder Frey. The Whents are his family by marriage.

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Maybe Rhaegar wants to give Riverlands to Whent and remove Tully?. But the talking was only Varys report, he could've lied to Aerys.

If Frey held a big tourney too, I bet Hoster Tully didn't came as well because the tourney only for Knights not High Lords

We don't know if Hoster was ever knighted. He could have been.

But the Freys would be something completely different. Hoster doesn't like Walder Frey. The Whents are his family by marriage.

I also think that dangerous politically. If you're trying to oust your father, it might not be the best idea to pit the Riverlands Lords against each other and that exact moment. You need the Twins and you need Riverrun and Harrenhal

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I like the theory that Ashara Dayne is Lemore, who become the mother figure for Aegon, Elia's son.



For me, it's a fun theory to think about. Ned and Ashara hit it off at the Tourney in Harrenhal and made love (Barristan was pretty emotionally charged when it came to Ashara and probably had delusions of how she would act, much like how Robert thought of Lyanna. He probably heard rumors that she lost her virginity and assumed that she was dishonored). Ashara got pregnant with Ned's kid but miscarried. She would have been distraught.



Fast forward to the sack of Kings Landing. Elia consented for Varys to save her children and the baby switch with Aegon happened (I'll expand on my opinion of the baby switch at another time).



Ashara was a lady-in-waiting to Elia and wanted to honor her. Varys needed a mother figure for Aegon (in giving him a holistic upbringing) so he informed Ashara of what was going on and made her an offer to take on that motherly role she was deprived of and to honor Elia's memory. She faked her own death and donned the guise of Lemore to help raise Aegon.



Of course, I have nothing to really support this so it's more just a fun thought than me putting forward a viable theory.


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I like the theory that Ashara Dayne is Lemore, who become the mother figure for Aegon, Elia's son.

For me, it's a fun theory to think about. Ned and Ashara hit it off at the Tourney in Harrenhal and made love (Barristan was pretty emotionally charged when it came to Ashara and probably had delusions of how she would act, much like how Robert thought of Lyanna. He probably heard rumors that she lost her virginity and assumed that she was dishonored). Ashara got pregnant with Ned's kid but miscarried. She would have been distraught.

Fast forward to the sack of Kings Landing. Elia consented for Varys to save her children and the baby switch with Aegon happened (I'll expand on my opinion of the baby switch at another time).

Ashara was a lady-in-waiting to Elia and wanted to honor her. Varys needed a mother figure for Aegon (in giving him a holistic upbringing) so he informed Ashara of what was going on and made her an offer to take on that motherly role she was deprived of and to honor Elia's memory. She faked her own death and donned the guise of Lemore to help raise Aegon.

Of course, I have nothing to really support this so it's more just a fun thought than me putting forward a viable theory.

LOL. Yes it's a fun theory thought not one I tend to buy into.

I think if Ashara is alive she's just in hiding and we won't really get to know where or what she's doing. I think her story is more important to the past. She might always remain a mystery.

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Ran has debunked the idea that Ashara is Lemore.



Given that Lemore returned to Westeros with Aegon, yet no mention was made of Ashara Dayne's miraculous appearance, I have to say I'm pretty sure that they aren't the same person. If Lemore wore a ruby, and thus could possibly be glamoured, it could work, but I don't think she's ever described as wearing a ruby.


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Ran has debunked the idea that Ashara is Lemore.

2nd the call for a link.

AFAIK Ran has his own pet theory, which he just likes, rather than has detailed evidence for.

"Ashara Dayne is Quaithe, it is known"

Given that Lemore returned to Westeros with Aegon, yet no mention was made of Ashara Dayne's miraculous appearance, I have to say I'm pretty sure that they aren't the same person. If Lemore wore a ruby, and thus could possibly be glamoured, it could work, but I don't think she's ever described as wearing a ruby.

Because the Stormlanders couldn't fail to recognise an obscure Dornish noblewoman who was at court in KL for a while 20 years ago...

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2nd the call for a link.

AFAIK Ran has his own pet theory, which he just likes, rather than has detailed evidence for.

"Ashara Dayne is Quaithe, it is known"

I randomly found Ran's "theory" LINK

Unless he's given it more detail elsewhere, it's exactly what Corbon said.

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<snip

Because the Stormlanders couldn't fail to recognise an obscure Dornish noblewoman who was at court in KL for a while 20 years ago...

Obscure? The most beautiful woman in Westeros? The one who threw herself from a tower after her supposed lover returned her brother's sword? Yeah, I'm sure she'd blend right in with those "laughing purple eyes." After all, everyone in Westeros has purple eyes...

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Obscure? The most beautiful woman in Westeros? The one who threw herself from a tower after her supposed lover returned her brother's sword? Yeah, I'm sure she'd blend right in with those "laughing purple eyes." After all, everyone in Westeros has purple eyes...

Yes, obscure.

She was not 'the most beautiful woman in westeros'. Except perhaps in the mind of Barristan Selmy. Note that Catelyn Tully didnt actually know anything at all about her and had to ask about her, even at the height of Ashara's supposed 'fame'. And all she knows, even now, is that Ashara was 'tall and fair, with haunting purple eyes'. A basically meaningless description apart from the eye colour.

What she was was a (beautiful, but not necessarily famously so) minor noblewoman (the Daynes are a storied house, but not particularly powerful or important, and she's merely a younger sister of a Lord, and not even one than married up or anything) from a far off place (Dorne, for the Stormlands where fAegon and crowd are now) who was, nearly twenty years ago, a minor functionary (Handmaiden to the crown princess) at the court in KL (not the Stormlands). She was apparently disgraced and sent home. Not something to be famous for or make her more recognisable (no newspapers or internet flashing photographs in the gossip columns).

Having some dubious posthumous fame from the singers does not help anyone remember what you looked like. And indeed, makes it even more likely she would not be recognised, because that girl is famously dead.

Its also extremely easy to disguise purple eyes by doing literally nothing. Even the most famously violet eyed woman on earth, Elizabeth Taylor, didn't actually look like she has violet eyes most of the time unless she used makeup, clothing or accessories to bring out the colour. So take away 'purple eyes' from the general description of Ashara Dayne and what have you got? Nothing.

Its quite astonishing that anyone could possibly think Ashara Dayne would be widely recognisable in westeros nearly 20 years after her supposed death. Its doubtful more than 100 or so people outside KL court and Starfall were ever introduced to her and a fair proportion of them (and most of KL court) probably died in the civil war and intervening years.

Identity, and the ability to change it easily in a society lacking photographic representation, are a central theme in this series.

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Lemore is not .Ashara



Jon Connington knows Ashara personally. She could have realised that Lemore was her, specially for the eyes.



In none of his PoV chapters he thinks of her as Lemore, or as anyone important. In fact, he sounds like he would be glad to get ride of her because she was there only to teach the boy about the Faith and her works is done. If she was in fact Ashara Dayne, he wouldn't think of her at all. He would treat her like a noble lady.


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Lemore is not .Ashara

Jon Connington knows Ashara personally. She could have realised that Lemore was her, specially for the eyes.

In none of his PoV chapters he thinks of her as Lemore, or as anyone important. In fact, he sounds like he would be glad to get ride of her because she was there only to teach the boy about the Faith and her works is done. If she was in fact Ashara Dayne, he wouldn't think of her at all. He would treat her like a noble lady.

He does call her "lady" a few times.

Not saying that I believe Lemore=Ashara, though. But she seems to at least be a little by important and of high birth.

If Lemore was Ashara, you'd think JonCon would have made the connection Lemore/Elia at least vaguely once.

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Lemore is not .Ashara

Jon Connington knows Ashara personally. She could have realised that Lemore was her, specially for the eyes.

In none of his PoV chapters he thinks of her as Lemore, or as anyone important. In fact, he sounds like he would be glad to get ride of her because she was there only to teach the boy about the Faith and her works is done. If she was in fact Ashara Dayne, he wouldn't think of her at all. He would treat her like a noble lady.

Didn't I point out the flaw in this argument to you very recently?

Lemore is playinga role and hiding her identity. She indicates as much in one place. So Jon Con treats her outwardly and inwardly as that role and identity because thats what you have to do when playing a long undercover roll, as he well knows..

But he slips up once, for our benefit (via GRRM) I assume, when he calls her Lady.

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If Lemore was Ashara, you'd think JonCon would have made the connection Lemore/Elia at least vaguely once.

Why?

How often has he thought about Elia?

And if he did, wouldn't it most likely be in context of the early rebellion period, when Ashara was probably no longer at court having been disgraced post Harrenhal, and thus not come to mind directly?

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In an Arya chapter in A Feast For Crows there might be something to suggest that Prince Rhaegar and Ashara had a thing.

"He is a man of the Night’s Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. and the singer should be on the Wall".

I read an interesting theory once that the song could be about Duncan and Jenny. This is a situation the singers would know about unlike the details and what really happened with Ashara.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1yzhgz/spoilers_all_songs_lies_and_stupidity_epic/

ETA: Plus, it would be a little amusing if Arya had said that the lady should have killed the ones who killed her prince if theories are correct and the FM had something to do with what happened at Summerhall. It would also compare to the as mentioned other time she said stupid and she was really talking about herself without knowing it.

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Something that's always confounded me. If Harrenhal was a set up for Rhaegar to start talking to the High Lords, then why on earth wasn't Hoster there. You need the Riverlands if you're planning something

Wasn't Tywin trying to match Lysa and Jaime though? The tourney essentially cepebrated Jaime being named to the Kingsguard, which isn't something thay would please Hoster if there were plans to wed Jaime and Lysa
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Why?

How often has he thought about Elia?

And if he did, wouldn't it most likely be in context of the early rebellion period, when Ashara was probably no longer at court having been disgraced post Harrenhal, and thus not come to mind directly?

Not that often, that is true. It was mostly in regards to her pregnancies.
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