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Does a blackfyre have more claim to the IT than Daenerys ?


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#1 PirateVergo

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:14 AM

We know that no Women can sit on the Iron Throne since the Dance of Dragons unless they are the last heir alive.

If we use Targ laws does fAegon has a better claim than Daenerys?

Of course Blackfyre aren't targ but they still share the same blood and even if they are a bastard house they're still noble.

Going further, does a Targ male bastard (for example Jon if L+R weren't married) come before a women if we use Targ laws? 

 



#2 Gneisenau

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:30 AM

We know that no Women can sit on the Iron Throne since the Dance of Dragons unless they are the last heir alive.
If we use Targ laws does fAegon has a better claim than Daenerys?
Of course Blackfyre aren't targ but they still share the same blood and even if they are a bastard house they're still noble.
Going further, does a Targ male bastard (for example Jon if L+R weren't married) come before a women if we use Targ laws? 
 


The Blackfyre's were stripped of all claims by the Targs, so yes Dany is before fAegom, but not Aegon.

#3 Dany Girl

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:41 PM

No woman can sit the throne if there is a male to inherit. Blackfyres were stripped of all rights during the rebellions. So no, Dany would absolutely come before a Blackfyre.

Not to mention, if Dany takes the throne it'll be by force, not name. So any old Targaryen succession laws would be null and void. If she conquered the country she would not have to step down to either Jon or Aegon (presuming he's real, which I don't believe). After that, Dany can make whatever succession laws she wants. She can make it so only females can inherit the throne if that is her desire. But I think she'd go more the Dornish route, first born is heir, regardless of sex.

#4 WMarshal

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:41 AM

Yes, the Targs are thieves, the blackfyres are the true heirs of the black King, their blood is more senior.



#5 Mr Bell

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:44 AM

Going further, does a Targ male bastard (for example Jon if L+R weren't married) come before a women if we use Targ laws? 

 

No. No bastard has any claim to anything, ever, unless legitimized.

 

If we set aside that the Targ claim is practically nonexistent anyway, maybe a Blackfyre would have a better claim than Danaerys. However, we don't know how many generations they would be willing to go back just to avoid having a woman on the throne.



#6 RumHam

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:06 AM

No woman can sit the throne if there is a male to inherit. 

 

Until the worldbook or something else clarifies, I'm pretty iffy about this statement.  It's never been established in books, just in a SSM from eight years ago.  (A kinda suspect SSM, because the reporter lied about something else in the same report.)

 

I discussed it with some nice folks here:

http://asoiaf.wester...le-heirs/page-3



#7 Victarion Chainbreaker

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:08 AM

Faegon is also descended from the female line (Serra) and there are no precedents for whether a trueborn female has more claim than a male through the (bastard yet legitimized) female line.

You can make your guesses, but this is one of those things that George has yet to clarify.

Personally, I'd say it's moot as Jon is the rightful king.
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#8 David Selig

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:10 AM

Everyone has "more claim" than Daenyrys.

 

That's what you wanted to hear, right?



#9 Victarion Chainbreaker

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:17 AM

Everyone has "more claim" than Daenyrys.
 
That's what you wanted to hear, right?

Dany has all the claim she needs, and she has 3 of them.

#10 Universal Sword Donor

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:17 AM

A Blackfyre would only have a better claim if he had more dragons and a larger army. That's more or less what Dany's claim is riding on right now.



#11 DavosSeaworthy

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:26 AM

Dany, technically speaking, has zero claim to the throne.  She will have to take it by force.



#12 nastydream

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:27 AM

Areo Hotah is the true king! :bowdown:

But srsly as people already said a blackfyre has no rights to the throne.



#13 El Guapo

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:33 AM

Dany, technically speaking, has zero claim to the throne.  She will have to take it by force.

 

She does have a claim to the throne. So does Stannis, Aegon (if real) and Jon (once his parentage is revealed). All of them will have tot ake it by force if they want to press their claims.



#14 Epyon

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:38 AM

I would argue that Joffery took the throne from Stannis "by right of conquest" at the Battle of the Blackwater.

 

As such, any other claims, beyond those of Jaime and Cersie's other bastards (ie Current King Tommen) are all only to be won via blood of conquest, rather than blood of inheritance.


Edited by Epyon, 22 July 2014 - 11:38 AM.


#15 El Guapo

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:40 AM

Stannis never had the throne, so no Joffrey did not take it from him. According to the laws of Westeros both Joffrey and Tommen are the right born sons of Robert Baratheon.



#16 Red.Queen

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:41 AM

From the point of view of Targ succession, no. Dany would come first, since the Blackfyres are considered traitors.



#17 Mitbert Strangejoy

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:44 AM

The Blackfyre's were stripped of all claims by the Targs, so yes Dany is before fAegom, but not Aegon.

 

Sure, but the Targs were effectively stripped of all claims by the Baratheons.

 

The bottom line is that they all have colorable claims depending upon who gets to decide which edict, right of conquest, ancestral claim is legitimate.  Whoever sits on the iron throne and forces his/her rivals to bend a knee will get to make that decision.



#18 TheMysteriousOne

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:47 AM

For the trillionth time, a right is completely different from a claim. Daenerys has a claim to the Iron Throne as she is the only (confirmed) heir of the previous ruling House. She does not have a right to the throne, and arguably, no one else does either. 



#19 UnmaskedLurker

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:53 AM

 

Until the worldbook or something else clarifies, I'm pretty iffy about this statement.  It's never been established in books, just in a SSM from eight years ago.  (A kinda suspect SSM, because the reporter lied about something else in the same report.)

 

I discussed it with some nice folks here:

http://asoiaf.wester...le-heirs/page-3

I agree (but I am not sure the worldbook will answer this particular question). The issue of when a female comes in line under Targ inheritance remains somewhat unclear. I think we know that after DoD 1.0, potential female heirs come after potential male heirs. But there has to be some limit, I would imagine. How far back would one have to go in the analysis? Would descendants all the way back from Aegon I be necessary before a female could inherit? I don't think DoD 1.0 answered that question. I think a new Grand Council would have to meet if such a situation arose and two people had competing claims--presumably Dany, as the last surviving Targ, and some male who inherited through a male line, for example, the son of the son of the son of the son of Aerion Brightflame. I don't know who the GC would pick, but it might be Dany on the theory that a female can inherit if no male within a certain number of generations exists to inherit, and the other claimant is just too far removed. We simply don't know the answer to this question.



#20 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:54 AM

For the trillionth time, a right is completely different from a claim. Daenerys has a claim to the Iron Throne as she is the only (confirmed) heir of the previous ruling House. She does not have a right to the throne, and arguably, no one else does either. 

:agree:  A claim is your valid arguments to sustain your campaign. That's why not everybody goes around trying to take the throne. Except Euron, but Euron is a moron.