another Malaysian Airlines flight story...

[DanteGabriel]

My point, with which the poster you're addressing was agreeing, was not whether the missile system can be traced to Russia but rather to what extent Russia can be held culpable for what a third party whom they've armed and supported chose to do with it. This situation does have clear parallels with the situation in the Middle East where the US is arming and supporting similarly volatile third parties. If the world decides to hold Russia to account for the Ukrainian rebels' actions, the US should be similarly held to account for the Syrian rebels' actions.

I'm not saying that Russia shouldn't be forced to face the music for what has happened. I'm just saying that whatever justice is applied should be applied equally in each case.

Eh, fair enough. I don't think the US should be supplying weapons to any of these rebel groups in the Middle East, because of the predictability of blowback, as illustrated by Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.

Culpability, to me, is almost a pointless exercise. Punishment is doled out according to the might of the group seeking to render punishment, not on any judgment in world opinion. Fixing blame here is largely a matter of window dressing. I don't think that's right, and in fact it's a fact that drives me to despair sometimes, but that's how it is.

All that said, I am perfectly fine with discussions of culpability on internet forums where we all need to kill time and hone our talking-past-each-other skills.

[Mudguard]

I don't think he's supporting the theory in that I don't find his comments to be credible given that they read like him trying to deflect blame.

Unlike some of the other theories, this theory doesn't sound crazy on its face and seems possible. If the rebels or Russia can provide radar evidence or some other evidence that supports his claim that Ukraine military aircraft were in the vicinity, that Ukraine admits to or cannot convincingly refute, I'd seriously consider the theory. But I want to see some evidence either way.

[DanteGabriel]

If Ukrainian military jets were (and please note the gigantic if), in fact, using civilian aircraft for cover, it would be a strange parallel to Hamas using civilians as human shields, or even the armed Bundy Ranch protesters using women and children as their shields. Which may lead to some interesting mental gymnastics for people who've argued one side or the other on those topics.

I still don't think it would absolve the separatists of the blame for shooting down a civilian airliner.

[snake]

Unless the pilots were talking with or about the Ukrainian jets the Russians claim were there, all the data recorder is likely to show is everything fine then immediate cut to black.

The story kind of hinted at that. Pity.

[mormont]

My point, with which the poster you're addressing was agreeing, was not whether the missile system can be traced to Russia but rather to what extent Russia can be held culpable for what a third party whom they've armed and supported chose to do with it. This situation does have clear parallels with the situation in the Middle East where the US is arming and supporting similarly volatile third parties. If the world decides to hold Russia to account for the Ukrainian rebels' actions, the US should be similarly held to account for the Syrian rebels' actions.

I'm not saying that Russia shouldn't be forced to face the music for what has happened. I'm just saying that whatever justice is applied should be applied equally in each case.

But surely one of the main issues here is precisely whether and to what extent the 'rebels' here are a 'third party'? As opposed to being, pretty much, an auxiliary, non-uniformed Russian force?

The rebels in Syria are a totally different, and not really comparable, case to the Syrian rebels. The Russians are arming a group of rebels who are ethnically Russian, many of whom have Russian citizenship (indeed it's clear that some prominent rebels in the Ukraine aren't even Ukrainian citizens), whose aim is to annex a considerable chunk of territory to Russia itself. That's wholly different in all sorts of important ways to the Syrian situation.

And, of course, the Syrian rebels haven't shot down any civilian airliners.

[Shryke]

Unlike some of the other theories, this theory doesn't sound crazy on its face and seems possible. If the rebels or Russia can provide radar evidence or some other evidence that supports his claim that Ukraine military aircraft were in the vicinity, that Ukraine admits to or cannot convincingly refute, I'd seriously consider the theory. But I want to see some evidence either way.

He's now apparently denying he told Reuters what they reported.

I think it came up as part of his attempt to deflect blame and only afterwards did he realize what he'd admitted to and now he's in the shit from the rest of the rebels/Russia.

[Mudguard]

He's now apparently denying he told Reuters what they reported.

I think it came up as part of his attempt to deflect blame and only afterwards did he realize what he'd admitted to and now he's in the shit from the rest of the rebels/Russia.

Wow, seriously? I think it's a little late for take backs.

[Rorshach]

The rebels in Syria are a totally different, and not really comparable, case to the Syrian rebels.

Just to pick a nit, I think one of these Syrias should be Ukrania.

Otherwise, I agree.

[Fragile Bird]

Even if the pilots of the Malaysian flight were not talking to the Ukrainians, there could be cockpit chit chat about seeing Ukrainian fighter jets somewhere nearby.

[Mile]

That is a perverse line of argument. Are the police to be blamed then when someone is robbed?

But do tell us what do you think Ukraine was supposed to have done in this case. Maybe accompany each civilian place with their fighter jets as escort? Ban all international flights across its airspace? Obtain written notification of accepting risks from every passenger on a civilian plane?

Intellectual laziness. Everyone is at fault so no one is at fault. Fuck, those Malaysian Airlines guys should have known what was up, it's their fault too! Amirite?

OK, I feel like I'm being misunderstood here, so I want to clarify. Rebels are to blame (if and so on). Russia is to blame (if and so on). How much one can pursue in court depends on how much Russia will allow, IMO. EU (and other parties) could possibly bring to the court who ever made the mistake, gave the order. That is, IMO, what is achievable and what must be pursued to give some justice to the victims. For this, I believe, they must engage with Russia diplomatically. I don't think Russia will allow being treated differently than US.

All this doesn't mean that we are not allowed to ask any other questions, like:

Did Ukraine conduct airstrikes on the day? What altitude were their planes on? Did they or didn't they know of rebels' capabilities? Why did the US and UK airlines go around Ukraine, and other countries' airlines did not? This is not to "put blame" on Malaysia for example, but is a legitimate question for the future.

Mile,


So, by that statement, I take it you support Ukrainian military efforts to disarm the seperatists and regain control of their territory to prevent further reckless actions by the Seperatists?

Scot, you keep asking me questions that are somehow besides my position, so I will explain it a bit to you :)

I am completely biased in this Ukraine situation, because I'm from Croatia and we had our own Glorious Righteous Struggle not so long ago. The point is, I can identify with both sides in this conflict. A couple of examples:

• The secession of Croatia was not 100% legal. Legitimacy was largely given by the international community, way too hastily. In hindsight, I wish the international community (above all Germany and Vatican) showed more restraint. I feel that a lot of legitimacy was given to Ukraine's government by EU and US after the (shady, IMO) coup in February and before the elections in May.
• In the beginning, the Croatian army was also a rag tag force, with some shady elements in it. They acquired their weapons illegally, financed in large part by the ethnic Croats in diaspora. They changed the reality by fighting for it, much as the Russian rebels are trying to do.
• The shelling of the Croatian cities by Yugoslav People's Army (their OWN army) is perverse to many Croatians even today. The inadequate shelling of Serbian-held Knin was certainly controversial: Croatian generals were judged at ICTY for it (among other things). So yes, I find the Ukraine bad for shelling their own people, even if they have right to do it.
• The Ukrainian "sovereignty" is not alpha and omega for me. Yeah, they are not really sovereign with Russia. They won't be in the EU the way things are now. Croatia is not fucking sovereign. It is in the interest of Ukrainian citizens to have good relations with Russia, in the long term. Like anyone else will really buy what they have to sell. I wish Croatia had better relations with Serbia and others. Oh, and what does sovereign even mean, aren't the people supposed to be sovereign? Doesn't east Ukraine deserve some of that?
• Before Croatia gloriously freed the territory of SAO Krajina, there has been a proposal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-4_Plan. I regret that it didn't work, even if Croatians were at a brink of victory, had legitimacy, yadda yadda yadda. It's imperative IMO to start the peace process in Ukraine ASAP. In the long run it's for the best for all parties. Mind that I have no sympathy for the likes of Strelkov or others. But I do understand the people living there. There have been a lot of victims and refugees, and this is worth more than any one regime. Maybe I would approve more of the Ukrainian methods if the government was better. I don't trust them as far as I can throw them.

So there. I'm also biased against the US and pro Russia (but mostly just for standing up to US :D) but that's another thing completely.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mile,

Fair enough.

[snake]

Annnnnd here's Pepe!!! :D

[Davos OnionKing]

Annnnnd here's Pepe!!! :D

Quoted from your article:

"And as much as Washington doesn't give a damn about the current civilian slaughter in Gaza, it doesn't give a damn about the MH17 civilian deaths; the one and only obsession is to force Europeans to sanction Russia to death. Translation: break up Europe-Russia commercial and geopolitical integration. "

I think that sums up my reasons to question the official response by the West perfectly.

[Shryke]

Russia has done more to breakup Euro-Russia integration then anyone.

This whole issue started when Russia smacked the Ukraine around for trying to lean towards the EU instead of them. They are trying to form their own trading block in opposition to the EU.

That analysis don't make alot of sense.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

DOK,

Yes, this is a vast consipracy to divide Europe and Russia which is why Russia annexed Crimea.

[Ghjhero]

Latest news is the the Ukrainian cabinet has resigned includeding the prime minister.

[Ghjhero]

Russia has done more to breakup Euro-Russia integration then anyone.

This whole issue started when Russia smacked the Ukraine around for trying to lean towards the EU instead of them. They are trying to form their own trading block in opposition to the EU.

That analysis don't make alot of sense.

To my knowledge this whole thing started because the Ukrainian government was leaning towards closer ties with Moscow and then it all went from there with protests in Kiev to the situation today.

[Shryke]

To my knowledge this whole thing started because the Ukrainian government was leaning towards closer ties with Moscow and then it all went from there with protests in Kiev to the situation today.

Well, that's what started the Ukrainian internal problems. Yanukovych pivoted to Russia instead of the to the EU like it had seemed before hand (there's theories this is based on trying to cover his multitude of crimes up) and the populace (at least in the west of the country) were not happy about it. But that's all just internal political squabbling and has nothing to do with ties between Europe and Russia.

Europe-Russia ties doesn't come up till Russia decides to invade and annex Crimea. That's when the sanctions start and when european-russian relations suddenly start getting problematic. That's where the problems start.

And beyond that, of course, Russia was already trying to establish it's own set of economic allies in opposition to the EU long before any of this went down.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Separatists are barring searches for more bodies:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/24/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-bodies/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

From the article:

While 203 body bags have been transferred from the crash site in war-torn eastern Ukraine, "that doesn't really tell us that much about the exact number of victims that have been collected," Prime Minister Mark Rutte said a news conference Thursday evening.

"The chance is still very great that there are still victims at the crash site," Rutte said.

While investigators examine body bags in a fourth and final refrigerated train car parked in the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv, pro-Russian rebels who control the crash area banned recovery workers Thursday from searching for more bodies.

Monitors from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe and experts from Malaysia want to continue searching a debris field spanning several miles for human remains. "There's a lot of heavy debris still out there," spokesman Michael Bociurkiw said, "and we're not quite sure what could be underneath."

Sergey Bochkovskiy, the head of Ukraine's State Emergency Services, said Thursday that "terrorists" cut off access to the area after the train carrying remains from the crash site to Kharkiv left the crash site.

"You call them terrorists, we call them culprits, as they do not give us access to the site," said Jan Tuinder, head of the Dutch police team.

What possible reason can they have for cutting off access to the site?

[TerraPrime]

What possible reason can they have for cutting off access to the site?

The dead bodies that were loaded onto the plane for it to crash need to be deader?