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Breakdown of Dunk's Trial by Seven - Was Maekar a Kinslayer?


Mithras

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Team Aerion used short war lances to kill their opponents in the first tilt. Team Dunk used long tourney lances to unhorse their opponents. Note that a well-placed strike from a tourney lance can still knock an armored man down and make him unconscious.



The tourney lances are made to break upon impact, so after the first tilt; Team Dunk should dismount their horses and fight on foot (at least those who survive the first tilt). The code of chivalry prevents a mounted knight fighting a knight on foot. So, the fight continued on foot after the first tilt.



Prince Baelor specifically commanded that he meant to exploit the vow of the KG that prevent them to harm himself.



Dunk vs. Prince Aerion Targaryen



They were engaged with each other until the end.



Ser Raymun Fossoway vs. Ser Steffon Fossoway



They were engaged with each other until the end.



Ser Robyn Rhysling vs. Prince Daeron Targaryen



Prince Daeron had said he would withdraw his accusation and lay on the ground. Ser Robyn unhorsed his opponent in the first tilt and Daeron removed himself from the trial.



Ser Humfrey Beesbury vs. Ser Donnel of Duskendale



Beesbury was slain by Ser Donnel in the first pass.



We know these matches for certainty. The rest is a little speculative.



Ser Lyonel Baratheon vs. Ser Roland Crakehall



I think Ser Lyonel should match Ser Roland in the first tilt because both Baratheons and Crakehalls are traditionally large and strong men. Ser Lyonel probably landed a well-placed strike because he was a top class jouster. That did not finish Ser Roland but made him dizzy. Ser Roland managed to get up and engage in the melee fight.



This match also makes a stag vs. boar fight in which the stag won. The boars will have the rematch to the dismay of Robert.



Prince Baelor Targaryen vs. Prince Maekar Targaryen



They should face each other in the first tilt because no KG could point a war lance to Prince Baelor. He was a better jouster than Prince Maekar and he had the advantage of striking first with his long tourney lance. I think in the first tilt, Prince Baelor unhorsed Prince Maekar and stunned him for a while.



Ser Humfrey Hardyng vs. Ser Willem Wylde



Ser Humfrey was already unable to walk because of his broken leg. He was gravely wounded in the first tilt and died shortly after the trial. But I think Ser Humfrey managed to land a good hit before taking the war lance of Ser Willem. Ser Humfrey proved to be a very formidable jouster and he deserved his place among the likes of Leo Longthorn and the Laughing Storm in the first day of the tourney. That hit prevented Ser Willem to fight the rest of the trial at full capacity.



After The First Tilt



Dunk – Prince Aerion and Ser Raymun – Ser Steffon were closely coupled.



Prince Maekar and Prince Daeron were lying on the ground dizzy or retired. Ser Roland was trying to recover too.



Both Humfreys were dead or dying.



Ser Lyonel, Ser Robyn, Prince Baelor were standing unharmed in Team Dunk.



Ser Willem and Ser Donnel were standing unharmed in Team Aerion.



I think Team Dunk did not lose any time. They descended on the two KG with their numerical advantage. In addition, Prince Baelor exploited the vow of the KG and I think they managed to take Ser Donnel down completely unconscious.



By this time, Prince Maekar and Ser Roland recovered and joined the fight.



Since Ser Robyn was not in the sight at the end, he should be defeated before the end too. Also he was not in the same league with these top class fighters (I mean the KG and the likes of Ser Lyonel, Prince Baelor, Prince Maekar).



So, Team Dunk now suffered the numerical disadvantage. Two KG (Ser Roland and Ser Willem) descended on Ser Lyonel. Prince Baelor tried to defend Ser Lyonel and take out another KG. At the same time, Prince Maekar was trying to beat Prince Baelor with his mace and successfully landing him a lot of blows as the helm, shield and armor of Prince Baelor suggested in the end. I think the skull cracking blow came at this stage.



Normally, no two men can win a fight against such three men under such conditions but Ser Lyonel the Laughing Storm was a fooking Baratheon and Prince Baelor was no small a prodigy, both in strength and cunning. They managed to take out Ser Willem, though it cost a lot of blows to Prince Baelor and unfortunately one of them was the killing blow.



Once they were two against two, Team Dunk gained the upper hand. Ser Lyonel and Prince Baelor successfully disarmed Ser Roland and removed him from the trial. After Ser Roland was out, Prince Baelor and Ser Lyonel descended on Prince Maekar and just before they made him yield, Dunk finished the trial.



The End



One of the Kingsguard [ser Roland] knights was carrying a wounded brother [ser Willem] from the field. They both looked alike in their white armor and white cloaks. The third of the white knights [ser Donnel] was down, and the Laughing Storm had joined Prince Baelor against Prince Maekar.



“Has anyone died?”


“Beesbury,” Raymun said. “Slain by Donnel of Duskendale in the first charge. Ser Humfrey is gravely wounded as well. The rest of us are bruised and bloody, no more. Save for you.”


“And them? The accusers?”


“Ser Willem Wylde of the Kingsguard was carried from the field insensate, and I think I cracked a few of my cousin’s ribs. At least I hope so.”


“And Prince Daeron?” Dunk blurted. “Did he survive?”


“Once Ser Robyn unhorsed him, he lay where he fell. He may have a broken foot. His own horse trod on him while running loose about the field.”



Raymun did not say that any opponent died. Ser Willem was the one carried wounded by one of his brothers. Ser Roland definitely survived because he will appear in TMK too.



Ah, how can I forget. Prince Baelor died to a mace blow in the head, which could only be taken from Prince Maekar.



Speculation;



I think Prince Maekar remembered the killing blow too damn well. He probably tried to remove Prince Baelor from the trial by a hard blow in the head but all that feeling of inferiority and being overshadowed by Prince Baelor made his strike significantly harder than he anticipated. It was something momentary. I think he wanted to believe that the blow was unintentional but he could never be sure of that, which means it was partially intentional.



Maekar told that the people would curse him and Dunk alike at every misfortune because of killing the beloved Crown Prince. I don’t think anybody cursed Dunk, more like they adored him. Maekar’s reign started with full of promise as a long summer persisted but then a cruel and long winter came and he died against the Peakes from a boulder in the head launched by a catapult.



Karma is sometimes a bitch in ASOIAF too.


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Always wondered about this aspect. My guess is that he was, albeit unintentionally, as sworn vows ( such as KG's) are still valid during a trial, so I guess there is no exemption from the other laws of the gods aswell ( name kinslaying, since you cant break the guest right or have an incestuous relationship during a trial by 7).


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Another important thing to consider:

 

In a regular tourney, if a jouster unhorses the other with a good strike, the fallen one (if not unconscious) usually congratulates him and yields the match because of chivalry. Or in some cases, the unhorsed knight can challenge his opponent to face him on foot though this is not a common occurrence. For once, being hit by a lance in a jousting contest and falling to the ground from the back of a horse is not easy experience. Not many knights can rise up after this fall and keep their strength to fight on foot. Second, one must really have a good reason to not yield after being unhorsed. Appearing like a greedy fella who does not know how to lose, who does not respect the opponent’s skills is not chivalrous and the watchers would definitely protest such dishonorable knights.

 

Therefore, after being unhorsed, the common practice is to yield the match. But in a trial by seven, one should fight until the bitter end because it is not a game. That is why Maekar and Roland kept fighting although they were most probably unhorsed in the first tilt. Normally they would yield after being unhorsed if this was a tourney match. But they stood up and kept fighting.

 

That means the plan of Baelor to use tourney lances against war lances in a trial by seven was not as bright as one would presume. Unless you are a prodigious jouster, it is very hard to eliminate an armored opponent by hitting him with a wooden lance. After a short period of dizziness, that person should rise and keep fighting, especially if they have strong builds and high damage tolerance like Maekar and Roland had.

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I think Prince Maekar remembered the killing blow too damn well. He probably tried to remove Prince Baelor from the trial by a hard blow in the head but all that feeling of inferiority and being overshadowed by Prince Baelor made his strike significantly harder than he anticipated. It was something momentary. I think he wanted to believe that the blow was unintentional but he could never be sure of that, which means it was partially intentional.

 

Maekar told that the people would curse him and Dunk alike at every misfortune because of killing the beloved Crown Prince. I don’t think anybody cursed Dunk, more like they adored him.

 

1. Was Maekar a kinslayer? 

 

Technically, yes.  But realistically, no.  It was never his intent to kill his brother.  It's the difference between murder and manslaughter. 

 

2.  Maekar hit Baelor too hard in the head due to inferiority complex. 

 

Far too speculative for me.  No other real sign, as far as I know, that Maekar had this inferiority complex. 

 

3.  Nobody cursed Dunk, but loved him.

 

No.  I believe Dunk had to keep his head down for quite awhile.  He was probably detested by quite a few of the nobility who believed that Baelor died for a useless hedge knight. 

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I've actually learned the opposite. Intent is only icing to the cake of action.

It certainly matters if we are trying to decide if the result of an action is intentional, or accidental. 

 

Maekar hit Baelor on the side of the head with a mace.  The intent was to put him down or knock him out.  The subsequent death was accidental. 

 

What is Maekar guilty of?  Murder?  Kinslaying?  Or simply hitting his brother in the head? 

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It certainly matters if we are trying to decide if the result of an action is intentional, or accidental. 

 

Maekar hit Baelor on the side of the head with a mace.  The intent was to put him down or knock him out.  The subsequent death was accidental. 

 

What is Maekar guilty of?  Murder?  Kinslaying?  Or simply hitting his brother in the head? 

 

While true that its relevant in that part, I don't think that kinslaying is a matter of intent, but of action. If you killed your kin by mistake its still kinslaying.

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While true that its relevant in that part, I don't think that kinslaying is a matter of intent, but of action. If you killed your kin by mistake its still kinslaying.

I don't see how kinslaying could be considered such a great crime, in the case.  Is there a different word used when you DO kill your kin on purpose.  It seems to me that there is such a great criminal and moral gulf between the two actions, that they should require different words.  A boy who accidentally kills his brother in a football game or a boxing match is probably not going to even be charged with manslaughter unless their actions have be proven to be negligent.

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I think Prince Maekar remembered the killing blow too damn well. He probably tried to remove Prince Baelor from the trial by a hard blow in the head but all that feeling of inferiority and being overshadowed by Prince Baelor made his strike significantly harder than he anticipated. It was something momentary. I think he wanted to believe that the blow was unintentional but he could never be sure of that, which means it was partially intentional.

 

 

I like to think he did it when he was trying to get to Dunk when he thought he was going to kill Aerion, in papa Dragon mode (there is also description of Dunk's helmet being smashed to accompany it):

 

 

“I yield,” the dragon whispered, pale lips barely moving. Dunk blinked down at him. For a moment he

could not credit what his ears had heard. Is it done, then? He turned his head slowly from side to side,
trying to see. His vision slit was partly closed by the blow that had smashed in the left side of his face. He
glimpsed Prince Maekar, mace in hand, trying to fight his way to his son’s side. Baelor Breakspear was
holding him off.

(but my secret crackpot is that it was Lyonel when they both fought Maekar,lol)

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I don't see how kinslaying could be considered such a great crime, in the case.  Is there a different word used when you DO kill your kin on purpose.  It seems to me that there is such a great criminal and moral gulf between the two actions, that they should require different words.  A boy who accidentally kills his brother in a football game or a boxing match is probably not going to even be charged with manslaughter unless their actions have be proven to be negligent.

 

The issue I see with this is that we don't have the same kind of custom-based laws as Westeros does, and that family are a great deal more important in their society than in ours, and that just because both are termed kinslaying they are not always considered vile in the same degree. For example I don't think that Daemon Targaryen killing Aemond was considered such a horrible thing as Gregor's rumored slaying of his father and sister were. Both were kinslaying yet within different contexts that makes them be viewed at least somewhat differently.

 

Although to be fair we don't really know how Daemon's legacy was so it might be that he is indeed reviled for being a kinslayer.

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I did not saw parallela with stag and boar. Robert's death is even funnier now.

Maekar was obviously kinslayerbut people did not called him that because he was liked and he always was saying that he did not did it intentionally.

Kinslayer karma however is very hard in asoiaf world. Gerold Lannister killed his brother to become lord of casterly rock so two of his sons died and gerold itself died from inability to piss.

Maekar karma was very ironic as he crushed his brother head and he itself was crushed by rock. Heh.

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2.  Maekar hit Baelor too hard in the head due to inferiority complex. 

 

Far too speculative for me.  No other real sign, as far as I know, that Maekar had this inferiority complex. 

 

The Hedge Knight is full of signs of this inferiority complex.

 

3.  Nobody cursed Dunk, but loved him.

 

No.  I believe Dunk had to keep his head down for quite awhile.  He was probably detested by quite a few of the nobility who believed that Baelor died for a useless hedge knight. 

 

He didnot keep his head down. After the Spring Sickness and the drought, people were blaming everything on Bloodraven.

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