R+L=J v.89

[Lady of Dragonstone]

Depends on which interview you read. In this one, http://www.vulture.com/2014/07/sean-bean-legends-game-thrones-chat.html he no more than confirms that he feels, the interviewer's idea of Bran seeing him in a flashback is worthwile and he would be oh so happy if that was true.

added: yes he also confirms that he is Bran's father but not Jon's father. Just for completenes ... and not getting misunderstood.

and since I am at it, here's the other one: http://moviepilot.com/posts/2014/07/18/game-of-thrones-sean-bean-confirms-that-fan-theory-about-jon-snow-s-mother-2094244?lt_source=external,manual

I got up this morning, and this was the first thing I heard, saw, read. I died a little inside... due to happiness, of course. I was wondering if you fine people had seen this yet, and alas, you have... I am so unbearably excited right now...

a couple of my unsullied friends on Facebook were linking Bean's articles and some R+L = J theories from Buzznet and the like. Their reaction was "omg!! Mind. Blown!! How is this possible!!" I think it's going to be a genuine shock for the truly Unsullied.

I agree. My significant other has faithfully been watching and reading with me this whole time, but he still isn't 100% convinced of R+L=J. I cannot wait....

[Ser Creighton]

Alia couldn't help herself, and Rambo needs to stop because I don't think his face can keep up with him. :P

On topic and back to your point on second sons, I don't know if Viserys was on that list, but definitely a theme of these second sons having to step in and "clean up," as is also the case with Bran and Robb runs through the book.

There always should be an "spare to the heir," but I'm not sure if they are ever really properly prepared, though on occasion, some do a better job.

I'd say Viserys did not, and who is to say if Ramsey gets the job done because he is just that ruthless, or a psychopath. Either way, his extremes will undo him.

(Historically speaking, Henry VII was not fond of Henry VIII and was not groomed the way Arthur was.Henry was definitely his mothers son, to the point some have theorized that no one could ever replace the perfection that was Elizabeth of York hence his marital problems)

No that face can't take another mock up. Why do you think his movies are now called the Untouchables.

Second sons should switch to a spare tire as their sigil. Though it is interesting that early on and probably again the second sons and Storm Crows are her sell sword companies. Though who knows with Tyrion around.

A friend sent me this little tid bit which I thought was interesting,

Cersei Jaime Tyrion - Second son (girl, boy, boy)

Rhaenys Aegon Jon - Second son (girl, boy, boy)

Rhaegar Viserys Daenerys - First/Only (1) daughter (boy, boy, girl)(3)

It sort of works with the inverse thing I like to do.

It's just such a heavy theme and Martin likes to layer I figure there must be something to it.

With Vis I think I am one of the few people that is a Dany fan who feels bad for him. Honestly he never had a chance but he did keep Dany with him he did take care of her though he was cruel.

On and: Do you have a heir to spare? No I don't. Not one heir? You can't spare one heir? No, no I can't, I can't spare a heir, I don't have a heir to spare. Alright that's out of my system.

I just can't put my finger on what the whole second son thing is. If it was just some people but it's so many major characters and that damn sell sword company. Knowing my luck it's the name of his favorite hot dog stand or something like that. Still trying to figure out if that Sigil has something to do with the Mercy sword. Maybe a sort of twisted play on the Sword of Mercy being symbolic of forgiveness and Martins idea of the gift of Mercy. It's the second sons they have like the worst rep in Essos, nobody wants to hire them in the Free Cities, and they are famed for running from battle and switching sides. What is their motto we break before our swords do? Maybe it's suppose to hint at Mercy for the second sons? Like real mercy not I am sticking a knife into your heart.

Oh and yes Henry VIII had some issues.

[J. Stargaryen]

Second sons should switch to a spare tire as their sigil. Though it is interesting that early on and probably again the second sons and Storm Crows are her sell sword companies. Though who knows with Tyrion around.

The name Stormcrows would seem to lend itself to some kind of foreshadowing. For example, storm and crows have been combined elsewhere in the story, with Stannis at the Wall.

But also, Dany is Daenerys Stormborn, so maybe that accounts for the storm in Stormcrows. Or maybe it's both. Maybe they're Dany's now, but will change sides later, if/when they make it to Westeros.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

...about as substantial as Dany must find her bane at Storm's End since she is Stormborn...

additional material: Storm Crow (I never knew that...)

eta: fixed broken link

[teej6]

Sorry to go back to the Sean Bean interview topic but it seems like now the Jon Snow parentage mystery is on all the mainstream news coverage. Going back to the Alfie Allen interview about Jon being like Luke Skywalker, I never understood what he meant. But now that I think of it, he might have meant that Anakin was seen as the chosen one but not in the manner everyone was expecting. He did eventually bring balance to the force but through his son, Luke. Similarly, Rhaegar thought of himself, at least initially, as the tPtwP but the prophesy will be fulfilled not through him but rather through his son, Jon. Also, funny how the fathers' names in both instances are unique (I don't mean in the SW or ASOIAF universe) but the sons' names are common Judea/Christian names, which is probably just a coincidence.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

funny how the fathers' names in both instances are unique but the sons' names are common Judea/Christian names, which is probably just a coincidence.

Good find!

I don't believe in GRRM and coincidence, though.

So very few of them have yet been discovered...

[J. Stargaryen]

...about as substantial as Dany must find her bane at Storm's End since she is Stormborn...

additional material: Storm Crow (I never knew that...)

eta: fixed broken link

I posted some thoughts on Dany's link to the concept of storm, and how it might mirror Jon's arc going forward. - Link

[teej6]

BTW Luke means light, luminous, white and John means graced by God (in this case by the Gods, the old ones and the new I suppose)

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I posted some thoughts on Dany's link to the concept of storm, and how it might mirror Jon's arc going forward. - Link

Great essay! Thank you.

BTW Luke means light, luminous, white and John means graced by God (in this case by the Gods, the old ones and the new I suppose)

Lux - light is the latin equasion but the name is actually of ancient greek origin.

Allegedly meaning from Lucanus or from Lucania - thus from Southern Italy.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

89 versions of this theory....

Can I pass out now? :bs: :rolleyes:

[BearQueen87]

89 versions of this theory....

Can I pass out now? :bs: :rolleyes:

I'm confused. Do you object to R +L = J and do you have an alternative theory?

[mambru]

Sorry to go back to the previous closed topic, but I just wanted to reply to something BearQueen87 wrote to me in the last one:

Me:

To to me, the fact that they obeyed Rhaegar and stayed there MAY show that: 1) they feel that they MUST obey any order from the Royal family (like Rhaegar) as IF he were the king, regardless of whether such an order indirectly endangers the King, or 2) they have actually taken Rhaegar AS their king and are obeying HIS orders and not Aerys', or 3) they have agreed to fudge their vows and turn a blind eye to Rhaegar's stealthy removal of his father's KG so that he can dethrone his father without them having to openly violate their vows by taking Rhaegar's side against his father, or 4) still more exciting possibilities we may not have thought of yet.

BearQueen87:

Well...

Quote

...and I thought that was kind of funny. Because the Jon-is-Absolutely-King! Theory requires the assumption that the Kingsguard at the Tower ARE making up their own orders.

Think about it. The three KG at the ToJ initially stayed there guarding the Tower because Rhaegar (who was never king) ordered them to stay there guarding Lyanna from all comers. But if you believe Jon is the King and the KG are guarding him, then WHO gave them the order to attack Ned without attempting to parley first (which is a perfectly sensible military option when approached by an enemy willing to talk, and doesn't rule out battle if the enemy turns out not to be amenable to your terms)?

Jon is not capable of giving that order, or any order; he's a baby. Lyanna would NEVER give the order to the KG telling them to do their best to kill Ned. Ergo, either the KG were acting on Rhaegar's orders (which are now obsolete and endangering to Jon under the current circumstances) OR they were making up their own orders (since no one in the tower could or would give them the order to kill Ned).

And since you have just supplied the Word of God that the KG can't make up their own orders, then you leave me with only one option: the KG are obeying their last orders from Rhaegar to defend the Tower from all comers - even though those orders currently endanger Jon more than trying to parley with Ned.

And if the KG are more interested in following their last orders from a dead Crown Prince to the letter than doing what is more conducive to Jon's survival - then I think it's just more likely to believe they don't think Jon's the King. Just in my opinion.

[BearQueen87]

...and I thought that was kind of funny. Because the Jon-is-Absolutely-King! Theory requires the assumption that the Kingsguard at the Tower ARE making up their own orders.

Think about it. The three KG at the ToJ initially stayed there guarding the Tower because Rhaegar (who was never king) ordered them to stay there guarding Lyanna from all comers. But if you believe Jon is the King and the KG are guarding him, then WHO gave them the order to attack Ned without attempting to parley first (which is a perfectly sensible military option when approached by an enemy willing to talk, and doesn't rule out battle if the enemy turns out not to be amenable to your terms)?

Is Ned willing to talk? Are you sure? What does Ned "know" when he arrives at the tower? He "knows" that Lyanna is inside, having been kidnapped and raped hundreds of times in the intervening process. He "knows" that the men in white standing in front of him are guarding his sister for the Prince so that if the Prince were to return from battle victorious, the Prince can continue his raping of Ned's little sister.

Now, it is very possible that someone (Ashara) either flat out told Ned that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and in love. It's also possible that she just said, I know where your sister is and left it up to Ned to get get her. What Ned did or did not know is constantly up for debate; that's a huge missing piece of the puzzle. But what in the ToJ dream leads you to believe that he is wiling to talk?

But if the order from Rhaegar was "protect my wife and soon to be born child" then the KG aren't making up their own orders.They are following through with them. Now that Jon is born, they don't need new orders. It's just that Jon status has changed: he is now 1) born and 2) king because the 3KG know that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon are dead. So their vow to Rhaegar still stands but the first vow of the KG, to protect the king, is also firmly in place, probably above what Rhaegar told them.

Jon is not capable of giving that order, or any order; he's a baby. Lyanna would NEVER give the order to the KG telling them to do their best to kill Ned. Ergo, either the KG were acting on Rhaegar's orders (which are now obsolete and endangering to Jon under the current circumstances) OR they were making up their own orders (since no one in the tower could or would give them the order to kill Ned).

.

Nope, because the first KG order, protect the king, has kicked in. They don't need specific orders. The order they are following is the one they swore when the white cape goes on their shoulders: as Kingsguard I will do my upmost to protect the king, including die for him.

ETA: it's like the Night's Watch. Every morning do the brothers of the NW have to be told, "today, men, you will defend the Wall. Today, you will be the sword in the darkness. Today, you will be the Watcher on the Wall." No. Because they've sworn to do that once the take the Black. Well, once you take the white, you do not need to be told every single day that you must guard the King. It's your vow. It's what you are going to do every day for the rest of your life. You don't need orders for it.

[Ygrain]

89 versions of this theory....

Can I pass out now? :bs: :rolleyes:

Should this be reported as a trolling post?

[Ser Leftwich]

...and I thought that was kind of funny. Because the Jon-is-Absolutely-King! Theory requires the assumption that the Kingsguard at the Tower ARE making up their own orders.

Think about it. The three KG at the ToJ initially stayed there guarding the Tower because Rhaegar (who was never king) ordered them to stay there guarding Lyanna from all comers. But if you believe Jon is the King and the KG are guarding him, then WHO gave them the order to attack Ned without attempting to parley first (which is a perfectly sensible military option when approached by an enemy willing to talk, and doesn't rule out battle if the enemy turns out not to be amenable to your terms)?

Jon is not capable of giving that order, or any order; he's a baby. Lyanna would NEVER give the order to the KG telling them to do their best to kill Ned. Ergo, either the KG were acting on Rhaegar's orders (which are now obsolete and endangering to Jon under the current circumstances) OR they were making up their own orders (since no one in the tower could or would give them the order to kill Ned).

In the culture of the books, a parley is just threatening and posturing. Ned's dream is a parley, they threaten each other and decide to fight. We have the examples of Jaime at Riverrun, Stannis and Renly.

In world, we have both Criston Cole and Jaime, as LC of the KG, making fairly serious decisions about the royal family, war, etc. without a king or Hand or regent telling them explicitly what to do. The discussion is within the power range of the LC of the KG, then the decision to fight.

[IceFire125]

Sorry to go back to the Sean Bean interview topic but it seems like now the Jon Snow parentage mystery is on all the mainstream news coverage. Going back to the Alfie Allen interview about Jon being like Luke Skywalker, I never understood what he meant. But now that I think of it, he might have meant that Anakin was seen as the chosen one but not in the manner everyone was expecting. He did eventually bring balance to the force but through his son, Luke. Similarly, Rhaegar thought of himself, at least initially, as the tPtwP but the prophesy will be fulfilled not through him but rather through his son, Jon. Also, funny how the fathers' names in both instances are unique (I don't mean in the SW or ASOIAF universe) but the sons' names are common Judea/Christian names, which is probably just a coincidence.

I'm of the opinion that Jon was chosen and marked by the old gods, it is very rare that they will give such symbol. Ghost was that marked symbol given by the old gods.

“In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood... By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift... The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance...” - ADWD Bran III

Ghost was that rare gift to the chosen, Jon. In the words from Varamyr, upon looking at Ghost, "There would be a second life worthy of a king." But Jon needs to enter Ghost and apply that second life, which he did, and maybe after that, Ghost would have lived his purpose. His short days in the world were now numbered the moment Jon enter his conscious into him.

[teej6]

Now, it is very possible that someone (Ashara) either flat out told Ned that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and in love. It's also possible that she just said, I know where your sister is and left it up to Ned to get get her. What Ned did or did not know is constantly up for debate; that's a huge missing piece of the puzzle. But what in the ToJ dream leads you to believe that he is wiling to talk?

Well this is the problem with Ashara being the one to inform Ned about Lyanna's whereabouts. If she is the one who told Ned why didn't she elaborate. No matter how she got the information to Ned she could have told him that Lyanna was pregnant with Rhaegar's child and they were lovers/married. What if the person who informed Ned was the Littlefinger of that time. Who this person possibly could be, I do not know. Someone in another thread suggested that Brandon might have been given false information about Lyanna's supposed abduction by someone hoping/expecting Brandon to react the way he did. For Varys to have been playing the game for such a long period is bit of a stretch. Ashara sending Ned to the ToJ with the mistaken impression of his sister being kidnapped and raped was really poor judgement on her part. The only other possible explanation is that Ashara probably didn't have all the information. She may have actually also believed that Lyanna was kidnapped. Without an unseen hand/player, GRRM needs to write the occurance of so many unfortunate events/misunderstandings between so many otherwise decent people.

[teej6]

I'm of the opinion that Jon was chosen and marked by the old gods, it is very rare that they will give such symbol. Ghost was that marked symbol given by the old gods.

In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood... By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift... The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance... - ADWD Bran III

Ghost was that rare gift to the chosen, Jon. In the words from Varamyr, upon looking at Ghost, "There would be a second life worthy of a king." But Jon needs to enter Ghost and apply that second life, which he did, and maybe after that, Ghost would have lived his purpose. His short days in the world were now numbered the moment Jon enter his conscious into him.

:agree:

I don't think GRRM has anything against the hero's journey in most myths/fantasies. Contrary to what some believe, I don't think GRRM is out to destroy that. Jon exhibits all the signs of the hidden prince, chosen one, reluctant hero story lines from myths. For GRRM, it's all about how the hero finds his true self/identity, the conflicts within him as opposed to achieving greatness instantly.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

3 KG @ ToJ remark:

While there's a lot of argument about that the Kingsguard is there to protect the King, it is also quite the common sight that they protect the royal family.

Assuming R + L were married, Lyanna would have been under KG protection also after birth.

Baby boy or baby girl - in the latter case a princess would also have been in need of KG protection.

Their number - three - would have allowed for one of them to be with the King, one with Lyanna, and in case the King would have turned out to be Viserys, son of Aegon II, indeed, one could have stayed with the newborn princess.

Still in spite of my thoughts above they did not split up.
In the strange case of the baby being removed from his mother, all KG at ToJ might have been a desparate diversion maneuver.

Probably they meant to allow for 3 against 7 and to make sure, the odds did not turn out any worse.

[JonSnow4President]

3 KG @ ToJ remark:

While there's a lot of argument about that the Kingsguard is there to protect the King, it is also quite the common sight that they protect the royal family.

Assuming R + L were married, Lyanna would have been under KG protection also after birth.

Baby boy or baby girl - in the latter case a princess would also have been in need of KG protection.

Their number - three - would have allowed for one of them to be with the King, one with Lyanna, and in case the King would have turned out to be Viserys, son of Aegon II, indeed, one could have stayed with the newborn princess.

Still in spite of my thoughts above they did not split up.

In the strange case of the baby being removed from his mother, all KG at ToJ might have been a desparate diversion maneuver.

Probably they meant to allow for 3 against 7 and to make sure, the odds did not turn out any worse.

So... 3 kingsguard knew ahead of time that they would have to fight against 7 people?