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Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part IV: ADwD


MoIaF

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I just want to.make absolutepy clear, in case I have been misunderstood. I didn't link that thread to compare Dany to Tywin. I meant it as an illustration of the point that people love to hate the "villains". I didn't for a second mean to put Dany and Tywin in the same category, in case that is how it appeared.

No worries. I didn't take it that way, for one. It was a very "interesting" read so thanks for linkage.

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No worries. I didn't take it that way, for one. It was a very "interesting" read so thanks for linkage.

:) Your welcome. I haven't read it since I posted but I can imagine it went.in.odd directions

ETA: Sweet Seven. That thread is horrible. I see the same poster who calls Dany "Mad Bitch" all the time refers similarly to others. Oh, and one of the posters said not all of the Slavers should have been punished also says the Reynes and Tarbecks all deserved what they got...including babies? My word, some of the posts in that thread...Do these people genuinely accept these thoughts?

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:) Your welcome. I haven't read it since I posted but I can imagine it went.in.odd directions

ETA: Sweet Seven. That thread is horrible. I see the same poster who calls Dany "Mad Bitch" all the time refers similarly to others. Oh, and one of the posters said not all of the Slavers should have been punished also says the Reynes and Tarbecks all deserved what they got...including babies? My word, some of the posts in that thread...Do these people genuinely accept these thoughts?

Okay, I don't want to go too far down this road, but I can't resist a comment. I was on a political thread once where a few comments of this variety appeared: "I know what to do about Afghanistan. Pull our people out and H-bomb the whole place." There was an appropriate reply: "I did not realize that people in solitary confinement had Internet access."

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Okay, I don't want to go too far down this road, but I can't resist a comment. I was on a political thread once where a few comments of this variety appeared: "I know what to do about Afghanistan. Pull our people out and H-bomb the whole place." There was an appropriate reply: "I did not realize that people in solitary confinement had Internet access."

That's probably for the best :p

I would now like to apologise for linking that thread. In my defence, it hadn't deteriorated so much when I did link it

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And this is my problem with lumping Dany in with the likes of Tywin, Roose, and Ramsey (or, apparently Hitler and Pol Pot if one thread was to be believed...) I don't believe that those three in particular--and we can add in the Mountain and Euron Greyjoy--have redeeming qualities. They do what they do for power, their own personal honor, to keep their own status in the world, and in a few cases because they just sincerely love blood and gore and violence. We don't get inside their head because there is no reason to be there; they are what they are.

Well, bumping Dany with the likes of Tywin etc is mistly the job of people who "defends" her. The justification for Shavepate is Tywin, Mountain and Tickler doing the same. Well, guess what? If Tywin does it, that doesn't mean it is OK for Dany to do. And cross that with the idea that every charactet is morally same, you get by far one of the most dubious character defenses ever.

I simply believe that Dany does not need to be compared with Tywin, Qyburn, Ramsay to justify what she did. Just because they did it, doesn't mean it's OK. Sometimes, there are acts that are undefensable. And we should acknowledge them. Not negate them or create even worse arguments.

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I'm going to go ahead and repost this since the forum ate everything for the past 12 hours (eek)



A Dance With Dragons



Daenerys III



“Beware of Qartheen bearing gifts, especially merchants of the Thirteen.”



Summary



Daenerys Targaryen hosts Xaro Xhoan Daxos from Qarth. With him, Xaro has brought thirteen galleys that he will give to Dany if she promises to leave Meereen immediately. After consulting with her councilors, Dany rejects Xaro’s offer. On the following morning, Qarth declares war against Dany.



Analysis



Should I Stay Or Should I Go Now?



Xaro has come to Meereen with the intention of making Dany move on from Slaver’s Bay. While he might offer the olive branch of peace and friendship, neither party is being open and honest about their true intentions. During the opening interaction between the two, Dany’s real thoughts are voiced in her internal monologue:





I will not trust you, but I need you. I need your Thirteen, I need your ships, I need your trade.





Dany and Xaro are already at cross-purposes; neither has what the other wants. Meereen’s trade has “dwindled away to nothing” now that slavery has been abolished. The two products Dany can offer Xaro—wine and salt—are of little use to him and Qarth; he will gladly take olives and olive oil, however olive trees were put to the torch by the Slavers before Dany took the city. When Dany finally asks Xaro what he wants, if not trade and the friendship of Meereen, Xaro makes Dany an enticing offer:





”Tell me true, old friend, why did you seek me out if not to trade?”


….


“The gift you begged of me in Qarth. Ships. There are thirteen galleys in the bay. Yours, if you will have them. I have brought you a fleet, to carry you home to Westeros.”


….


“When you are satisfied, swear to me that you shall return to Westeros forthwith, and the ships are yours. Swear by your dragons, and your seven-faced god and the ashes of your fathers and go.”





Westeros is home for Dany; it is the fulfillment of dreams to find where she belongs. She longs to return to the lands from whence her family came, a land she’s never seen, only heard about in stories, and take back her family’s throne. Westeros has been the goal for almost 5 full books now; the ships from Xaro are a very powerful gift. There are reasons why Dany should take the ships and reasons why she will not.



1. Why Dany should leave



It’s a harsh reality, but Xaro does not beat around the bush:





A poor city [Meereen] that once was rich. A hungry city that once was fat. A bloody city that once was peaceful.”





“Daenerys, let me be honest with you, as befits a friend. You will not make Meereen rich and fat and peaceful. You will only bring it to destruction, as you did Astapor.”





While Dany had noble and good intentions in taking Slaver’s Bay, some of the effects of that conquest have not been good. Astapor is a mess; the Yunkai’i have bought new sellswords, and Xaro informs the Queen that Tolos and Mantarys have formed an alliance against her. At this point, it might be better for Dany and those serving her to cut their losses and run. If Westeros is Dany’s true desire, as it has been since before she decided to stay and rule Meereen, then this “knot” is only keeping her from her destiny.



The idea of going home is a very powerful allure for Dany. Her entire mood changes to one of joy and hope:





The next morning Dany woke as full of hope as she had been since first she came to Slaver’s Bay. Daario would soon be at her side once more, and together they would sail for Westeros. For home.





I believe this is an indication that somewhere deep inside her, Dany knows that she’s not where she belongs. She could spend her entire life trying to keep the peace in Meereen, and have it all undone when she dies—but still she fights. There is only one way to secure a fragile peace in Meereen, and it is foreshadowed here: “everyone agrees that I must marry.”


Also, once again, we see that Dany has an imagined version of Daario in her head. Daario’s home isn’t Westeros, at all. She’s lumping him in with her idea of home, but he stands apart from it in reality.



2. Why Dany should NOT leave



There are two reasons presented why Dany cannot leave Slaver’s Bay; one is practical and one is ethical.



From a purely logistical standpoint, 13 ships will not cut it. Unlike when Dany left Qarth at the end of Clash, she now has her “khalasar, eight thousand Unsullied, a thousand sellswords, and a vast horde of freemen.” And, of course, two dragons, three if she can find Drogon. The ships would only carry part of her host across the Narrow Sea, and I suspect Xaro knows this. He is less concerned about her taking the Iron Throne and more about the bloody situation in Slaver’s Bay. Had Xaro truly wanted Dany to reclaim her birthright, he’d have brought a hundred ships. There is some debate over how the logistical problem could be solved—Grey Worm says the Unsullied could march on land and the Dothraki could ride—but in the end, it is the ethical reasons that strike a chord in Dany.



From an ethical standpoint, Dany still feels responsible for the people of Meereen, as their “mother.” When Dany meets with her councilors, Reznak tells Dany what her departure would mean for those left behind:





”The Yunkai’i will restore the Great Masters the instant you are gone, and we who have so faithfully served your cause will be put to the sword, our sweet wives and maiden daughters raped and enslaved.”





Dany will not suffer her people to be put back into chains.





”No one will be left to die. You are all my people.” Her dreams of home and love had blinded her. “I will not abandon Meereen to the fate of Astapor. It grieves me to say so, but Westeros must wait.”





Even though some in the city are outright and violently rejecting her, she still considers them to be her people. Were she to pack up and leave, Dany would carry the guilt of knowing that slavery had returned for the rest of her life.



However, one more thing Dany could not predict would be Xaro and Qarth’s reaction to her rejection. While Dany still hopes for a friendship between their two cities, Xaro makes it clear that if she does not leave, they will be enemies, informing her that he should have slain Dany while she lived in his house. And with that, Dany has one more enemy to fight.



This seems to be a reoccurring theme with Dany: no one is giving her all the advice. Even if she still rejected Xaro, no one in her presence brings up what might happen with Qarth if they reject the offer. “Dany would not lack for council” but she does not have the right sort of council. This brings up something we’ve said repeatedly: Dany needs a Hand and a Maester.



But, the big question: Did Dany make the right decision? I believe so. Even if she would be willing to cut her losses and run, accepting defeat in Slaver’s Bay (which Dany would not do at present), it would mean sacrificing large parts of her army either over land or over sea. She’d arrive in Westeros with less than what she had, and probably fail in her suit for the Iron Throne. What’s the point in going home if it’s only to leave again?



If You Give a Slave Their Freedom…



There is quite a bit of interesting philosophizing about the nature of slavery and slaves themselves in this chapter. Xaro tells Dany a story about a friend he ran into in Meereen. In a previous life, this man was a merchant and wealthy. He is now reduced to digging ditches. When this man sees Xaro, he begs the merchant prince to buy him (as a slave) and take him from Meereen. While GRRM is obviously not trying to make a case for the justification of slavery, this passage helps illuminate a certain philosophy that slavers have used.





”Ask yourself, if all men must grub in the dirt for food, how shall any man lift his eyes to contemplate the stars? If each of us must break his back to build a hovel, who shall raise the temples to glorify the gods? For some men to be great, others must be enslaved.”





It’s a disturbing philosophy but not one that was uncommon in the real world. If you want a world full of art, music, poetry, and beauty then you need slaves to deal with the hard labor so that “great men” might prevail. For the Great Masters, Dany has not only upset their livelihood but their status at the top of the proverbial food chain. The fact that it was a young woman who did this is even more of an ego bruise.



Dany’s response to this is interesting, and provides a lot of insight into how Dany rules in general: “He was too eloquent for her. Dany had no answer for him, only the raw feeling in her belly.” Dany’s heart rules her, and sometimes her head struggles to keep up. Slavery is wrong. Let’s not mince words: it is abhorrent and tragic and should be stomped out. Dany’s liberation is based on the injustice she saw and those injustices will never seem just to her—to matter what the pretty words are; even though she’s being presented with evidence to the contrary, Dany continues to see the world in black and white. Her fault is trying to shut out contradictions, not in the actual act of freeing slaves or trying to maintain their freedom.



The Queen vs the Woman



There is quite a bit of sex or “romance” in this chapter; the first instance of this sets up the others. The dancers Xaro has brought to Meereen perform an erotic dance that ends with copulation. But it’s all a ruse. This is not the act of love, but the performance of it. Why are we reading about a mummer’s performance of love? Because Xaro has come, supposedly, out of love for Dany to give her a great gift, but it’s only an act. He simply wants her out of Meereen. And Dany, for her part, will pretend that she is pleased to see Xaro and hear him out, but she will not trust him. Xaro, of course, goes through all the platitudes to which we grew accustomed in Qarth, though we know that Xaro has no interest in sex with Dany. When Dany wants to think on his offer of the ships, he touches her breast and offers to help persuade her, another act in this performance of love and desire. Dany, at least, fully recognizes what Xaro is doing and rejects him; she does consider the offer, though not because she wants Xaro:





For a moment she was tempted. Perhaps the dancers had stirred her after all. I could close my eyes and pretend that he was Daario. A dream Daario would be safer than the real one.





Daario, a character we have yet to see in Dance thus far, keeps rearing his blue mustached face in this and previous chapters. Dany thinks of Daario when she watches the dancers have sex; she longs “to see his face, to stroke his three-pronged beard, to tell him her troubles;” she pictures them sailing to Westeros—to HOME—together. One of Dany’s biggest arcs in Dance is her attempt to reconcile different parts of herself: is she a dragon or a harpy? She cannot be both, though she is trying. Along with this is Dany’s notion that she cannot be Queen and a woman both. In order to be Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, The Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, ect she cannot be Dany, the woman who dreams of a house with the red door where she is safe and warm and loved.



Notice in the passage where Dany longs to see Dario’s face, stroke his beard, ect, that it’s “the queen” who wishes to do these things. But those actions are not of a Queen and her supplicant but of a woman and a man. Her sexual desires are rooted in the fact that she is a woman and if (and indeed when) she gives into them in a few chapters, it won’t be as a Queen.



We’ve seen this internal conflict before back in Clash and Storm. In Clash, when Jorah tells Dany of his second wife and say that Lyneese Hightower looked a bit like Dany, Dany thinks “he doesn’t love me like a knight loves a queen; but as a man loves a woman.” When Jorah kisses her on the ship, her reaction is not one of disquiet because Jorah is kissing her but because he is treating her as a woman, not his Queen. And in this Dance chapter: “Ser Jorah would not turn his eyes away [from her bare breast]. He loved me as a woman, where Ser Barristan loves me only as his Queen. Mormont had been an informer, reporting to her enemies in Westeros, yet he had given her good counsel too.”



In Dany’s head, if you love Dany as a woman, you cannot love her as a Queen, and if you love her as a Queen you cannot love her as a woman. Dany doesn’t believe the two can be reconciled. It’s something that we should keep an eye on in the coming chapters, especially since Dany gets a report that Daario is returning from his mission.



Miscellaneous Musings



1. Dany dons the Qartheen drees of keeping one breast bare. She is now a dragon, pretending to be a harpy, pretending to be Qartheen. More floppy ears, more identities that crush who she really is.



2. Irri remarks that, “a khalessi must have a khal.” This recalls the Tyrion II chapter Mladen analyzed and the missing king statue.



3. Dany speaks of her desire to plant and harvest. I often think her critics overlook this. She is not content to sit on her laurels and rule; she wants to cultivate and grow, make Meereen fat and happy.



4. Pyat Pree set out for Pentos after Dany/Drogon upset the Warlocks of Qarth. I’m sure this will not lead to anything bad.



5. Xaro gives Dany a very large map of Planetos before the Doom. Will it be useful down the line?


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Thank you for posting your analysis again, what a pain. Also, thanks to cade who had my post saved. Here it is again...

BearQueen87, on 20 Jul 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:snapback.png


A Dance With Dragons

Daenerys III

snip

Great analysis! Thank you BearQueen87. :thumbsup:

2. Why Dany should NOT leave

There are two reasons presented why Dany cannot leave Slaver’s Bay; one is practical and one is ethical.

From a purely logistical standpoint, 13 ships will not cut it. Unlike when Dany left Qarth at the end of Clash, she now has her “khalasar, eight thousand Unsullied, a thousand sellswords, and a vast horde of freemen.” And, of course, two dragons, three if she can find Drogon. The ships would only carry part of her host across the Narrow Sea, and I suspect Xaro knows this. He is less concerned about her taking the Iron Throne and more about the bloody situation in Slaver’s Bay. Had Xaro truly wanted Dany to reclaim her birthright, he’d have brought a hundred ships. There is some debate over how the logistical problem could be solved—Grey Worm says the Unsullied could march on land and the Dothraki could ride—but in the end, it is the ethical reasons that strike a chord in Dany.

From an ethical standpoint, Dany still feels responsible for the people of Meereen, as their “mother.” When Dany meets with her councilors, Reznak tells Dany what her departure would mean for those left behind:


”The Yunkai’i will restore the Great Masters the instant you are gone, and we who have so faithfully served your cause will be put to the sword, our sweet wives and maiden daughters raped and enslaved.”

Dany will not suffer her people to be put back into chains.


”No one will be left to die. You are all my people.” Her dreams of home and love had blinded her. “I will not abandon Meereen to the fate of Astapor. It grieves me to say so, but Westeros must wait.”

Even though some in the city are outright and violently rejecting her, she still considers them to be her people. Were she to pack up and leave, Dany would carry the guilt of knowing that slavery had returned for the rest of her life.

However, one more thing Dany could not predict would be Xaro and Qarth’s reaction to her rejection. While Dany still hopes for a friendship between their two cities, Xaro makes it clear that if she does not leave, they will be enemies, informing her that he should have slain Dany while she lived in his house. And with that, Dany has one more enemy to fight.

This seems to be a reoccurring theme with Dany: no one is giving her all the advice. Even if she still rejected Xaro, no one in her presence brings up what might happen with Qarth if they reject the offer. “Dany would not lack for council” but she does not have the right sort of council. This brings up something we’ve said repeatedly: Dany needs a Hand and a Maester.

But, the big question: Did Dany make the right decision? I believe so. Even if she would be willing to cut her losses and run, accepting defeat in Slaver’s Bay (which Dany would not do at present), it would mean sacrificing large parts of her army either over land or over sea. She’d arrive in Westeros with less than what she had, and probably fail in her suit for the Iron Throne. What’s the point in going home if it’s only to leave again?

If You Give a Slave Their Freedom…

There is quite a bit of interesting philosophizing about the nature of slavery and slaves themselves in this chapter. Xaro tells Dany a story about a friend he ran into in Meereen. In a previous life, this man was a merchant and wealthy. He is now reduced to digging ditches. When this man sees Xaro, he begs the merchant prince to buy him (as a slave) and take him from Meereen. While GRRM is obviously not trying to make a case for the justification of slavery, this passage helps illuminate a certain philosophy that slavers have used.


”Ask yourself, if all men must grub in the dirt for food, how shall any man lift his eyes to contemplate the stars? If each of us must break his back to build a hovel, who shall raise the temples to glorify the gods? For some men to be great, others must be enslaved.”

It’s a disturbing philosophy but not one that was uncommon in the real world. If you want a world full of art, music, poetry, and beauty then you need slaves to deal with the hard labor so that “great men” might prevail. For the Great Masters, Dany has not only upset their livelihood but their status at the top of the proverbial food chain. The fact that it was a young woman who did this is even more of an ego bruise.

Dany’s response to this is interesting, and provides a lot of insight into how Dany rules in general: “He was too eloquent for her. Dany had no answer for him, only the raw feeling in her belly.” Dany’s heart rules her, and sometimes her head struggles to keep up. Slavery is wrong. Let’s not mince words: it is abhorrent and tragic and should be stomped out. Dany’s liberation is based on the injustice she saw and those injustices will never seem just to her—to matter what the pretty words are; even though she’s being presented with evidence to the contrary, Dany continues to see the world in black and white. Her fault is trying to shut out contradictions, not in the actual act of freeing slaves or trying to maintain their freedom.

Dany can't leave her people. She's made herself responsible for them and now she just can't turn around and leave them defenseless. I thin kBarristan makes an interesting point when he says something along the lines that: "She has freed you, it's now your job to defend yourself."

This is very practical and it many ways it's true. However, this would be plausible if Dany had indeed rooted out the majority of the slaving cities including Yunkai. It's not to say that there wouldn't be Master scheming to get back into power, however, if the infrastructure of slavery had been crippled in that manner it would be easier for freedmen to defend themselves. But alas the slaving industry is still too well established in Slaver's Bay to allow the freedmen to survive.

The Queen vs the Woman

There is quite a bit of sex or “romance” in this chapter; the first instance of this sets up the others. The dancers Xaro has brought to Meereen perform an erotic dance that ends with copulation. But it’s all a ruse. This is not the act of love, but the performance of it. Why are we reading about a mummer’s performance of love? Because Xaro has come, supposedly, out of love for Dany to give her a great gift, but it’s only an act. He simply wants her out of Meereen. And Dany, for her part, will pretend that she is pleased to see Xaro and hear him out, but she will not trust him. Xaro, of course, goes through all the platitudes to which we grew accustomed in Qarth, though we know that Xaro has no interest in sex with Dany. When Dany wants to think on his offer of the ships, he touches her breast and offers to help persuade her, another act in this performance of love and desire. Dany, at least, fully recognizes what Xaro is doing and rejects him; she does consider the offer, though not because she wants Xaro:


For a moment she was tempted. Perhaps the dancers had stirred her after all. I could close my eyes and pretend that he was Daario. A dream Daario would be safer than the real one.

Daario, a character we have yet to see in Dance thus far, keeps rearing his blue mustached face in this and previous chapters. Dany thinks of Daario when she watches the dancers have sex; she longs “to see his face, to stroke his three-pronged beard, to tell him her troubles;” she pictures them sailing to Westeros—to HOME—together. One of Dany’s biggest arcs in Dance is her attempt to reconcile different parts of herself: is she a dragon or a harpy? She cannot be both, though she is trying. Along with this is Dany’s notion that she cannot be Queen and a woman both. In order to be Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, The Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, ect she cannot be Dany, the woman who dreams of a house with the red door where she is safe and warm and loved.

Notice in the passage where Dany longs to see Dario’s face, stroke his beard, ect, that it’s “the queen” who wishes to do these things. But those actions are not of a Queen and her supplicant but of a woman and a man. Her sexual desires are rooted in the fact that she is a woman and if (and indeed when) she gives into them in a few chapters, it won’t be as a Queen.

We’ve seen this internal conflict before back in Clash and Storm. In Clash, when Jorah tells Dany of his second wife and say that Lyneese Hightower looked a bit like Dany, Dany thinks “he doesn’t love me like a knight loves a queen; but as a man loves a woman.” When Jorah kisses her on the ship, her reaction is not one of disquiet because Jorah is kissing her but because he is treating her as a woman, not his Queen. And in this Dance chapter: “Ser Jorah would not turn his eyes away [from her bare breast]. He loved me as a woman, where Ser Barristan loves me only as his Queen. Mormont had been an informer, reporting to her enemies in Westeros, yet he had given her good counsel too.”

In Dany’s head, if you love Dany as a woman, you cannot love her as a Queen, and if you love her as a Queen you cannot love her as a woman. Dany doesn’t believe the two can be reconciled. It’s something that we should keep an eye on in the coming chapters, especially since Dany gets a report that Daario is returning from his mission.

This is a very interesting topic. In one hand Dany does need to choose between being a harpy or a dragon because being both didn't work out. On the other hand does she also need to choose between being a mother to her children and being the mother of dragons? Can she find a way to be both the protector of the freedmen and also the Dragon Queen? Because perhaps this all comes down to definition. I think Dany sees the mother figure as a soft, caring, naturing person and this perhaps is the ideal that she has because she didn't have a mother. However, as we know mothers are also be fierce protectors and fighters for their children. Perhaps it's about understanding when to be nurturing and when to be a fighter. When she conquered Meereen her job in Slaver's Bay was not done, there was still unfinished business. She wanted to be the nurturing mother when at that moment she still needed to be the protective mother.

If You Give a Slave Their Freedom…

There is quite a bit of interesting philosophizing about the nature of slavery and slaves themselves in this chapter. Xaro tells Dany a story about a friend he ran into in Meereen. In a previous life, this man was a merchant and wealthy. He is now reduced to digging ditches. When this man sees Xaro, he begs the merchant prince to buy him (as a slave) and take him from Meereen. While GRRM is obviously not trying to make a case for the justification of slavery, this passage helps illuminate a certain philosophy that slavers have used.

It’s a disturbing philosophy but not one that was uncommon in the real world. If you want a world full of art, music, poetry, and beauty then you need slaves to deal with the hard labor so that “great men” might prevail. For the Great Masters, Dany has not only upset their livelihood but their status at the top of the proverbial food chain. The fact that it was a young woman who did this is even more of an ego bruise.

Dany’s response to this is interesting, and provides a lot of insight into how Dany rules in general: “He was too eloquent for her. Dany had no answer for him, only the raw feeling in her belly.” Dany’s heart rules her, and sometimes her head struggles to keep up. Slavery is wrong. Let’s not mince words: it is abhorrent and tragic and should be stomped out. Dany’s liberation is based on the injustice she saw and those injustices will never seem just to her—to matter what the pretty words are; even though she’s being presented with evidence to the contrary, Dany continues to see the world in black and white. Her fault is trying to shut out contradictions, not in the actual act of freeing slaves or trying to maintain their freedom.

Xaro is the biggest slim ball that ever was or will ever be. I felt like I needed to take a shower after reading about him. Dany knows what he is so at least she is alert to that. However, as SeanF has mentioned in many occasion Xaro is a sophist and Dany was completely out of her depth in that conversation.

As you mentioned Dany acts/reacts with her gut, which has both served her well but also gotten her into a lot of trouble. She can be very bright and clever, however, she lacks the intellectual knowhow to deal with some of these citations. This is were a really good Hand and Maester would be oh so helpful to her. She should't be expected to know everything, but she should be expected to know when she is out of her depth and when to consult with people who know more. Sadly, there really isn't anyone in Slaver's Bay who can really offer her that kind of help.

"Beware men with cold hearts and blue lips. You had not been gone from Qarth a fortnight when Pyat Pree set out with three of his fellow warlocks, to seek for you in Pentos.”
I think this might be a warning both about the warlocks but also about Euron (who we are told captured some warlocks).
"Dany had never known a home. In Braavos, there had been a house with a red door, but that was all."
I find this quote very interesting because although Dany enjoyed her time in the Dothraki Sea with Drogo (and it was described by her one of the happiest times in her life) she still doesn't consider that home. Home to her is the fantasy, the dream of the House with the Red Door.
“Is that meant to frighten me? I lived in fear for fourteen years, my lord. I woke afraid each morning and went to sleep afraid each night … but my fears were burned away the day I came forth from the fire. Only one thing frightens me now.”

And we are reminded once again of what a crappy childhood Dany truly have. To always be afraid and running for your life, no wonder she was so meek in Pentos. However, in true Dany fashion she kept on going, Dany is many things but she's not a quitter, she is a fighter. That's the only way she knows how to survive.

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Great analysis! I'll add more later but first I just had to address the whole usurper's dogs/collective guilt topic...



Honestly, I don't think it matters (currently, at least) whether Dany comes to re-evaluate her views on Ned Stark. He's dead, she's on the other side of the world, and at the moment she has far more pressing concerns. What's important is that Dany is not a hypocrite. She calls Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister the "usurper's dogs", and pretty much declares that they're equally guilty because they're both doing the work of the usurper. And then she extends that to herself. Without saying it out loud, she equates herself to the "usurper" with the dragons as her "dogs", thus accepting the blame for the death of Hazzea.



Is Dany wrong to liken Ned to Tywin? Of course. And I also think she's wrong to compare them with regards to the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon - that was Tywin's work, and he in fact had his own dogs... But how can we criticise Dany's view on Ned Stark's guilt if she's accepting the same level of blame for the death of Hazzea as she gives to Ned? Like Dany, Ned certainly wasn't responsible for their deaths... but had he not rebelled in the first place, it never would have happened. We can criticise this view (and I certainly think she SHOULD change her view), but the important thing is that Dany accepts the blame for Hazzea's death. This isn't about Ned Stark, it's about Daenerys and how the black and white view she's had of the world is being radically challenged.


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Good job, BearQueen. Thanks for staying with things through the technical glitch.



At this point in the story, there are a great many things to comment on, review and reinforce from past chapters, compare to events elsewhere in Planetos, etc. Here I'll list some matters of interest to me. I'll discuss them (or some of them) in later posts.



1. Xaro is not a mustache-twirler. He is a bad guy. Possibly, he believes at least some of his own propaganda. Surely, there are people involved in the slave trade who believe it. They are not all purely evil. The Qartheen fellow is a sophist. His arguments look good on the surface, but when you examine them closely, they fall apart. Unfortunately, Daenerys is unable to do the needed examination.



2. We see other reasons for Dany's problems: As I said earlier, she failed to take control of the situation in Meereen. And she shows a disappointing lack of ability in negotiations. This isn't a unique problem with the dragon queen. In Westeros, negotiations are usually a matter of making demands, or pulling tricks, or telling the other side, "Do what we want, or we will kill your father"...or other such stuff. Dany should be able to do better. Back in Qarth, she wanted 1/3 of all the ships in the world in exchange for one dragon. For some reason or other, she lost all of the relevant bargaining skill in Meereen. One thing to do here would be to make a counter offer. Thirteen ships aren't enough? Ask for three hundred. Xaro could do the usual Qartheen thing:



"Three hundred ships?? Oh wah, oh boo hoo, my friend has gone crazy. Pah, pah I say!"



Then the two sides could get down to hammering out a deal. I don't say that this would have worked, but it should have been tried.



3. In this thread, we've discussed the matter of comparing characters. Such discussions have their drawbacks, but they also have worthwhile points. Look again at this quote:



"If a child is set upon by a pack of hounds, does it matter which one tears out his throat?"



Compare it to this:



"If you step in a nest of snakes, does it matter which one bites you first?"



The Queen of Meereen and the Lord of Dragonstone have a good bit in common. This relates both to strengths and weaknesses. It is due to the fact that they are members of the same class, living at the same time.



Also, Daenerys Targaryen is in a big city. It is a foreign place to her. A situation has developed where she has great difficulties and she is dependent on enemies for help. Does this remind you of anything? I say that it is very similar to Lord Eddard Stark's situation in King's Landing.



4. Finally, we have the related issues of unreliable narration and a lack of POVs from certain groups of people.



"It was these calamities that transformed my people into slavers."



Oh, really? One should certainly not accept Galazza Galare as an objective source. There are no quotes from authoritative texts which mention the soil of Slaver's Bay blowing away in thick red clouds. We don't have any POVs, or even any sort of testimony, from others who could give us worthwhile information. What about slaves who have worked harvesting olives? What about masters and others who live in the hinterlands? Their take on things would likely be different. I suspect that the agricultural productivity of the land is considerably greater than the Green Grace indicates. We should be very skeptical about this tale of how the poor Ghiscari were forced into the slave trade.

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Thank you for posting your analysis again, what a pain. Also, thanks to cade who had my post saved. Here it is again...

Great analysis! Thank you BearQueen87. :thumbsup:

Great analysis! I'll add more later but first I just had to address the whole usurper's dogs/collective guilt topic...

Good job, BearQueen. Thanks for staying with things through the technical glitch.

Thanks, all. And yeah, I'm glad I had the analysis in a word DOC or else I would be very sad right now.

“Is that meant to frighten me? I lived in fear for fourteen years, my lord. I woke afraid each morning and went to sleep afraid each night … but my fears were burned away the day I came forth from the fire. Only one thing frightens me now.”

And we are reminded once again of what a crappy childhood Dany truly have. To always be afraid and running for your life, no wonder she was so meek in Pentos. However, in true Dany fashion she kept on going, Dany is many things but she's not a quitter, she is a fighter. That's the only way she knows how to survive.

I've been thinking about what her one fear might be. If all her old fears were burned away then the fear of being on the run is no longer present. So what is this one thing Dany fears now. Being a bad Queen? The Taint? Being a bad Mother? Or maybe a combination of all three: that she is going crazy and therefore a bad mother and queen.

Good job, BearQueen. Thanks for staying with things through the technical glitch.

At this point in the story, there are a great many things to comment on, review and reinforce from past chapters, compare to events elsewhere in Planetos, etc. Here I'll list some matters of interest to me. I'll discuss them (or some of them) in later posts.

1. Xaro is not a mustache-twirler. He is a bad guy. Possibly, he believes at least some of his own propaganda. Surely, there are people involved in the slave trade who believe it. They are not all purely evil. The Qartheen fellow is a sophist. His arguments look good on the surface, but when you examine them closely, they fall apart. Unfortunately, Daenerys is unable to do the needed examination.

Her education--which most likely did not include rhetoric and debate--stems from Viserys' tales of Westeros, her life experiences, and her own sense of justice and right/wrong.

Also, Daenerys Targaryen is in a big city. It is a foreign place to her. A situation has developed where she has great difficulties and she is dependent on enemies for help. Does this remind you of anything? I say that it is very similar to Lord Eddard Stark's situation in King's Landing.

I'm sure the Harpy/Green Grace would say that she serves the realm, same as Varys, yet you shouldn't overly trust him. And the sons of the Harpy are serving their land/culture but they also seem to enjoy the chaos its creating, a la Litterfinger.

I really like that comparison.

ETA: before the meltdown today, there was a post by SeanF who pointed out that Dany's lack of proper high born education means she can't point out to Xaro that there are places--Braavos, The Reach--that is economically powerful without the reliance on slaves. Dany might be able to talk about these places myths and knightly stories but not the economy.

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3. Dany speaks of her desire to plant and harvest. I often think her critics overlook this. She is not content to sit on her laurels and rule; she wants to cultivate and grow, make Meereen fat and happy.

4. Pyat Pree set out for Pentos after Dany/Drogon upset the Warlocks of Qarth. I’m sure this will not lead to anything bad.

5. Xaro gives Dany a very large map of Planetos before the Doom. Will it be useful down the line?

3. We saw this earlier in her first pOV in ACoK when she thinks of staying in Vaes Tolorro, tending the gardens and watching her dragons grow.

4. Euron

5. I think Dany will visit the ruins of the Freehold in TWoW.

I agree Dany had good reasons for not accpeting the deal. The thirteen galleys are too small to carry her people, and while most of her forces could travel by land, they can't walk on water across the Narrow Sea to Westeros.

We are replanting, but it takes seven years before an olive tree begins to bear, and thirty years before it can truly be called productive.

Olive trees are symbols of peace, and Dany planting olive trees is referencing to her attempts at peace. As the quote reveals, real peace takes years to be successful.

"'She is come,' they will shout to one another, in glad voices. 'Prince Rhaegar's sister has come home at last."

Barristan, we all love you, but you should be more honest with Dany, and try not to give her unrealistic expectations.

Goody job, BearQueen87

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"'She is come,' they will shout to one another, in glad voices. 'Prince Rhaegar's sister has come home at last."

Barristan, we all love you, but you should be more honest with Dany, and try not to give her unrealistic expectations.

Goody job, BearQueen87

I love both her knights but one is unrealistic (Barristan) and the other is ruthlessly pragmatic (Jorah with his "the peasants don't care what games the high lords play" speech). Neither knight is really correct. Some of the houses might rejoice to see Rhaegar's sister come home but mostly it mean more WAR; and they do care what games the high lords play because they always get involved and they do have certain loyalties. Also, from Barristan's perspective it's telling that he ties her to Rhaegar. It's not "The Targaryen's have come home at last!" but that her real power lies in her brother's name which is interesting given that she has 2-3 dragons on hand.

And thanks!

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Cade kindly saved my post which got deleted:-

For Dany to accept Xaro's offer would be an admission of defeat. 13 ships might carry a couple of thousand soldiers at most. That's a large escort, not an army. She'd be very much the junior partner in any schemes that Illyrio might have, assuming she got back to Pentos. Any soldiers she sent marching overland would be surrounded by enemies. The sellswords would surely prefer to offer their services to the Great Masters, if she departed. She was right to reject the offer.

Xharo is a gifted liar, whose defence of slavery should be viewed in that light. Perhaps his "friend" who he saw working in the fields is a fiction. He begins by begging to know "why did you abandon me?". The answer is that he'd told her to return his gifts, leave his house, and quit Qarth. Dany is sensible enough not to be taken in by his lies, but she struggles to find the arguments to refute him. This shows her lack of education. As it happens there are cultured and economically advanced places, like Braavos, the Reach, and Old Town, which don't depend on slavery to survive.

The chapter shows how dangerous her position is becoming. A huge coalition is assembling against her, while her potential ally, Cleon of Astapor, has begun a hopeless war against Yunkai, and been defeated. The Yunkish army is a joke, but the legions of New Ghis and the sellswords they hire are formidable. Dany would have been better off seizing control of Yunkai. But, Xharo, for once, is not telling lies when he points out the dangers of marching to assist Astapor.

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Good job, BearQueen. Thanks for staying with things through the technical glitch.

Oh, really? One should certainly not accept Galazza Galare as an objective source. There are no quotes from authoritative texts which mention the soil of Slaver's Bay blowing away in thick red clouds. We don't have any POVs, or even any sort of testimony, from others who could give us worthwhile information. What about slaves who have worked harvesting olives? What about masters and others who live in the hinterlands? Their take on things would likely be different. I suspect that the agricultural productivity of the land is considerably greater than the Green Grace indicates. We should be very skeptical about this tale of how the poor Ghiscari were forced into the slave trade.

As a matter of fact, Meereen has plenty of food. The climate is hot and dry, but it's certainly not impossible to grow food. For one thing, there's a massive river flowing through the city, and Meereen's rule extends for 150 miles along it. The reference to estates being worked in the hinterland certainly shows that food is grown locally. The reference to olive trees suggest a Mediterranean climate, rather than a desert climate.

The coast might well haver suffered environmental damage, (much of it done by the Great Masters during Dany's campaign) but the hinterland seems fertile enough.

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I've been thinking about what her one fear might be. If all her old fears were burned away then the fear of being on the run is no longer present. So what is this one thing Dany fears now. Being a bad Queen? The Taint? Being a bad Mother? Or maybe a combination of all three: that she is going crazy and therefore a bad mother and queen.

You're right, according to a previous draft:

She looks at Ser Barristan and tells him that she told Xaro that she feared only one thing, though she would not tell the merchant what. Ser Barristan guesses that she only fears her dragons.

"Myself," Dany tells him.

"'She is come,' they will shout to one another, in glad voices. 'Prince Rhaegar's sister has come home at last."

Barristan, we all love you, but you should be more honest with Dany, and try not to give her unrealistic expectations.

He continues in the next chapter: “In Westeros you will be the lost child who returns to gladden her father’s heart. Your people will cheer when you ride by, and all good men will love you.”

From ASoS: "Your Grace, you have no need of slaves. Magister Illyrio can keep you safe while your dragons grow, and send secret envoys across the narrow sea on your behalf, to sound out the high lords for your cause.”

“Those same high lords who abandoned my father to the Kingslayer and bent the knee to Robert the Usurper?”

“Even those who bent their knees may yearn in their hearts for the return of the dragons.”

“May,” said Dany. That was such a slippery word, may. In any language.

It seems likely that Xaro's offer was a trap, as Dany suspected, but Barristan tried convincing her otherwise. Even if he was right, she would've lost most of her army, and what about the dragons? They're too wild to trust at sea, and Drogon is missing. There are also extreme dangers to Dany staying, but Barristan seems oblivious to the extent of them even though they were predictable after Dany attacked the slave trade. She became the threat of a good example, a symbol to the millions enslaved and therefore an existential threat to the slaver alliance that encircled her for thousands of miles. Short of fleeing or renouncing her opposition to slavery, I think war was inevitable, a war Dany was doomed to lose sans outside intervention or taming a dragon.

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Ser Barristan really is naïve about politics. There are nobles who are sympathetic to a Targaryen restoration, but no one is going to rise up for her unless they think she has a realistic chance of winning. Turning up in Westeros with a few hundred Unsullied won't convince people that she's a winner.


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Ser Barristan really is naïve about politics. There are nobles who are sympathetic to a Targaryen restoration, but no one is going to rise up for her unless they think she has a realistic chance of winning. Turning up in Westeros with a few hundred Unsullied won't convince people that she's a winner.

I agree with this. And as for the common folk, I think they just crave any King or.Queen who will give them peace (e.g. the Riverlands man that Arya meets, who wishes Aerys was King again. He gave the Realm peace, until the Rebellion happened)

ETA: The dragons are probably a key part of convincing people she is a "winner". People will be either intimdated or.awed by them, and flock to her cause (if she offers them better alternatives than the currentpy receive under Aegon, Cersei, Euron etc. Which imo rules out the likes of the Tyrells as they currently stand). I also think that if she shows those sides of her which are classed as "Rhaegar's sister" that will also help her. Afterall, the Essosi are spreading their lies about her in Dance (we see this in Quentyn's chapter) and from the Winds spoilers

There are already malicious, grossly misinterpreted rumours about her brothers death. Which, incidentally, I suspect Varys of spreading

So she is probably going to need to do some serious PR work

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Ser Barristan really is naïve about politics. There are nobles who are sympathetic to a Targaryen restoration, but no one is going to rise up for her unless they think she has a realistic chance of winning. Turning up in Westeros with a few hundred Unsullied won't convince people that she's a winner.

He really is naive about politics. He's a very good knight, but at the end of the day, that's all he is. A good knight who understands battle and war more than he could ever understand the Game.

I agree with HelenaAndTheMachine; the dragons are going to be key to her "winner" persona. Showing up with Dothraki, Unsullied, and sell swords doesn't scream "I am here to save Westeros." But show up with three dragons and people will take notice.

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Good job, BearQueen. Thanks for staying with things through the technical glitch.

At this point in the story, there are a great many things to comment on, review and reinforce from past chapters, compare to events elsewhere in Planetos, etc. Here I'll list some matters of interest to me. I'll discuss them (or some of them) in later posts.

1. Xaro is not a mustache-twirler. He is a bad guy. Possibly, he believes at least some of his own propaganda. Surely, there are people involved in the slave trade who believe it. They are not all purely evil. The Qartheen fellow is a sophist. His arguments look good on the surface, but when you examine them closely, they fall apart. Unfortunately, Daenerys is unable to do the needed examination.

bout masters and others who live in the hinterlands? Their take on things would likely be different. I suspect that the agricultural productivity of the land is considerably greater than the Green Grace indicates. We should be very skeptical about this tale of how the poor Ghiscari were forced into the slave trade.

I dont know, Xaro may not be a mustache twirler, but he's still a big selfish baby. When Dany was staying at his house, all he wanted was her to have his baby and her dragons. He lusted after what she could give him. Then when she turned him down, he sulked and cried and kicked her out. NOW Dany has stopped the slave trade. which means that beautiful perfect Qarth is suffering and will now declare war on her unless she leaves. And what will happen if she leaves? All of SB and the surrounding cities will go right back to their old ways. Astapor will start making Unsulied again and the slave trade will resume. It will be as if Dany was never there and everything she has been working towards for the last book or so will be completely superfluous. This would make no sense. Anyway, XXD is still being a baby. He is crying to Dany because she will not give him what he wants, which is for her to leave so that XXd and all his friends can be rich again from selling and trading humans. If Dany had decided to leave right now while the chips are down and everything looks bleak it would have been a stain on her IMO. I could not be happier that she is staying and dealing with whats happening in SB. Yes I agree that everything is fucked up and not going her way, but that is when we show our true colors, not when everything is going perfectly and life is a dream.

Dany is sticking it out, she wants to go home, she doesnt like Meereen at all, or the people in it, but she has a cause and she is not wimping out. I think it is such a credit to her to make this decision. She is clearly 100% saying NO to what she wants and saying YES to what is hard and inconvenient. So props to her for making a tough decision.

”Ask yourself, if all men must grub in the dirt for food, how shall any man lift his eyes to contemplate the stars? If each of us must break his back to build a hovel, who shall raise the temples to glorify the gods? For some men to be great, others must be enslaved.”

^^THis is a great quote. It really does sum up how ridiculous SB is and the slave trade in general, and it is simply not true. All they have to do is exchange the word 'enslaved' for 'working class'. What is so wrong with paying these men who 'grub in the dirt'? Why does it have to be slaves or nothing? Because that would make the 'great men' slightly less rich? I'm sorry but fuck you 'great men' . That is the worst excuse for slavery I have ever heard, plus I dont think the term 'great' could ever be applied to someone stupid enough to say that sentence. But it does sum up very well how all the Great Masters feel about what Dany is doing, bottom line: It will cost them money, and they want to keep all their money for themselves. They dont want to pay people to work for them, they want to whip people to work for them. The slaves greatly outnumber the slavers in SB, so for Dany to leave and just let XXD have what he wants means that the ruling class would be happy and that the majority of people living there will go back in to chains. Dany is staying for them, and she is brave to do so.

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