Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part IV: ADwD

[Parwan]

I agree. Oberyn would have made Dany listen more than Quentyn does, but he still ultimately would have failed because Dany is too invested in Meereen and the people of Meereen.

In response to the bolded part: "Dorne couldn't wait that much"? Perhaps, but I'd suggest that "Dorne wouldn't wait that much" might put the matter better.

Don't forget the general issue that some of us have brought up. There is a problem with diplomacy in Westeros. It isn't a skill that is much practiced. Doran didn't send a group of skilled negotiators. I don't think that any powerful person in the Seven Kingdoms would have done so. It appears that there were precious few skilled negotiators in the whole place. A proper way for the Dornishmen to proceed would have been something like this: We have an interest in overthrowing the current order. You have an interest in overthrowing the current order. Let's get together and work out a deal. Instead the approach was: Here is an agreement that you were not involved in making, have not been informed of, and which did not originally include you anyway. We have modified it according to our desires. We hope you accept the modified form of the agreement.

Would Oberyn or some other person have had enough sense and skill to say, "Okay, you won't accept the marriage. Can we still arrange some kind of alliance?" I don't know, but it is possible. As with other matters on this thread, we'll have more to discuss after a few more chapters.

[MoIaF]

Volunteers Needed

I need volunteers to review 7 of Tyrion's chapters and 1 Quentyn chapter. Please PM if you are interested and let me know if you can review multiple chapters.

Thanks!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Volunteers Needed

I need volunteers to review 7 of Tyrion's chapters and 1 Quentyn chapter. Please PM if you are interested and let me know if you can review multiple chapters.

Thanks!

I'm doing 2 more, c'mon posters :) We just need a few volunteers!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Daenerys IV

In this chapter we find Dany Meeting with the GG up in her terrace. They are being served by Dany’s hostages whom she has grown fond of. Dany and GG are discussing options for Meereen and Dany and the oncoming battle. The Green Grace wants Dany to marry a noble of old Ghiscari blood, she thinks it will heal the city, stop the killing, appease the harpy, and tame Dany. GG has chosen Hizdahr so Loraq. Dany is annoyed that the GG is presuming so much. Hizzy comes to talk to Dany and he convinces her that marrying him is the right way to heal Meereen, that he will give her 90 days of peace. There will be no killings from the Harpy for 90 days and on the 91 she will wed him. She does not love him, this is no secret, but she agrees to do it for peace and her people. Hizzy says he can make the killings stop, but that he is not the Harpy. She asks how he can get the killings to stop unless he is the harpy. He never answers her.

After he leaves Barristan enters and tells her he does not agree with this marriage, that he wants her to go to Westeros. She says she cannot leave SB. She desires peace and she knows that leaving will ruin everything she has worked for.

Barristan leaves and sends in Daario. Dany makes herself beautiful before he comes up. She wants him, lusts after him and she knows that he wants her. But she knows he is not right for her, being with or marrying Daario would not solve any problems in Meereen. Daario presumes too much while he is talking to Dany and she sends him away. This is a fairly short chapter, without a ton to analyze.

We just see Dany over and over choosing what must be done as opposed to what she wants. I dont get the criticisms of her being so reckless and selfish, reading her thoughts it's easy to see that she constantly chooses the path that is best for Meereen and not her own desires.

Analysis

Dany does not want to kill her child hostages like Skahaz wants. Is this really such a bad thing?

Dany desires peace more than anything, We see her say so several times. Whenever she is pressed to describe what it is that she desires, ‘peace’ is always her answer.

“Tell me, can this king puff his cheeks up and blow Xaro’s galleys back to Qarth? Can he clap his hands and break the siege of Astapor?”

“Peace is my desire. You say that you can help me end the nightly slaughter in my streets. I say do it. Put an end to this shadow war, my lord. That is your quest. Give me ninety days and ninety nights without a murder, and I will know that you are worthy of a throne. Can you do that?”

“It is not my place to choose your husband.” (Barristan)

“It is not,” she agreed, “but it is important to me that you should understand. My people are bleeding. Dying. A queen belongs not to herself, but to the realm. Marriage or carnage, those are my choices. A wedding or a war.”…….

“I know. I do.” Dany did not know how to make him see. She wanted Westeros as much as he did, but first she must heal Meereen. “Ninety days is a long time. Hizdahr may fail. And if he does, the trying buys me time. Time to make alliances, to strengthen my defenses, to---“

“And if he does not fail? What will your grace do then?”

“Her duty.”

“That one?” Daario chuckled. “Why not Grey Worm, if you want a eunuch in your bed? Do you want a king?

I want you. “I want peace. I gave Hizdahr ninety days to end the killings. If he does, I will take him for a husband.”

Daario would not make a good match for Dany and she knows it. He would be bad for business to say the least. He makes it obvious to her why he would be a bad choice with this quote;

“Then winkle them out of their pyramids on some pretext. A wedding might serve. Why not? Promise your hand to Hizdahr and all the Great masters will come to see you married. When they gather in the Temple of the Graces, turn us loose upon them.”

Dany was appalled. He is a monster. A gallant monster, but a monster still. Do you take me for the Butcher King?”

“Better the butcher thant he meat. All kings are butchers. Are queens so different?”

“This queen is.”

[BearQueen87]

Daenerys IV

Very nice job!

I'm curious. How many of us believe that the Green Grace is the Harpy and Hizdzhr is her most loyal servant?

Dany's conversation with the Green Grace is interesting; coming off the heels of her approval to sharply question the wineseller's daughter (a low point for Dany), her refusal to kill some of her hostages, for me, shows that Dany isn't cold, calculating, harsh, and without mercy. Even the Grace acknowledges this:

And yet your Radiance has found the courage to answer butchery with mercy. You have not harmed any of the noble children you hold as hostage.

Above all Dany's concern is the children: "what good is peace if it must be purchased with the blood of little children?" Dany does not want to be a butcher queen, she has a gentler heart as Jorah told her the first time Dany decided to step up and rescue a hurt and crying people: the Lamb Men. If I had to pick one moment from the series that defines Dany it might be that one. "You cannot claim them all," Jorah tells her, and Dany's response is more or less, "the hell I can't." Since then she has been claiming people: the slaves, the children, the weak and unprotected. She wants to save them all. Maybe Jorah, ever the pragmatist, is right and you can't claim them all, but Dany is going to try. And so long as these hostages are under her roof, she is going to try and save them from the Shavepate. I think this is something people forget when they begin listing Dany's crimes. If it means marrying a man she does not love or, I think, even remotely like, then she'll marry Hizdahr. If it means chaining her dragons (and her metaphorical dragon) then she'll do that.

A lot of times I see people calling Dany a woefully inept ruler. I do think she needs to stop being so trusting of people who aren't quite on the level, like the Green Grace with her presumptions nature. But what other course does she have in Meereen? She can leave the city, and allow those she swore to protect be put back in iron and chains. She can butcher all those who oppose her and have the city drown in blood. Why are people eager to put her down for trying to stem the blood? I'm not a political expert (I'll leave this to the others here who are far and away better than I at that) but I honestly don't know what else she is supposed to do in this situation.

We have a conversation with Barristan after Hizdahr leaves. We've talked in this thread about Dany's reluctance to hear about the past and her own family. But we've also had instances where Dany does seek out those stories, but something happens that forces her to focus on something else. In this case, we have both.

You saw my brother Rhaegar wed. Tell me, did he wed for love or duty?

This question posed to Selmy leads to several points that Dany was unaware of

1) that Rhaegar was "fond" of Elia

2) That Aerys II and Rhaella were not fond of each other

3) That Jaehaerys II forced them to wed because of a woods witch

4) Something happend at Summerhall (a word "fraught with doom")

Notice that this is all information that Dany listens to before dismissing Selmy (something to do with Summerhall and I'd bet dollars to donuts it's because GRRM isn't ready for his audience to hear about Summerhall yet). But Dany shows that she is willing to hear about the past and have her own imagined realities taken down by the truth.

As always one of my main focuses on Dany chapters is her ongoing relationships with the various men in her life. In this case, Daario has returned. (oh...joy)

I want to make a list of words or phrases Dany uses to describe Daario and herself before talking about their relationship.

• "my captain"
• "I need to change, to make myself beautiful."
• Starlight and seafoam..a wisp of silk that leaves my left breast bare for Daario's delight. Oh and flowers in my hair.
• "somehow the compliments meant more coming from Daario than from the likes of Reznak"
• I have missed you so much
• The girl in her wanted to kiss him so much it hurt. His kisses would be hard and cruel...and he would not care if I cried out or commanded him to stop.
• She always felt a little foolish when she was with Daario. Gawky and girlish and slow-witted. What must he think of me?
• He made her want to be his wanton
• Fickle, faithless, brutal. He will never be more than he is. He will never be the stuff of kings.

Why, Daenerys Targaryen..I do believe you are a teenager.

Dany's relationship with Daario is an important one (shudder) even though it's maybe my least favorite romantic relationship for Dany. Back in my own analysis of Dany III, I talked about her queen vs woman mentality and how she feels she cannot be both. Here we have Dany struggling to be a queen vs a girl. I think this is a big difference. Daario stirs in her the fact that she is very young and, despite having seen and done things that are truly out of this world, a young girl who is enamored of tales of princes and knights.

The image Dany has in her head of Daario is one of a dashing captain who will take her home, build her a house with a red door, and make passionate love to her. The problem is when Dany's imagined reality smacks up against reality. Daario is a sell sword; he's rutheless, blood thirsty, cruel. He wouldn't care if she commanded him to stop kissing her, he'd keep after her. He is 100% okay with trying to seduce Dany in her own rooms. He delights in titillating her with his swords. He openly calls her Daenerys. Notice that Daario even gives her some of the same flattery as Xaro ("it is enough for me to feast upon your beauty") but Dany is much more open to these lines.

There is a quite a bit of "opposite of Jorah" going on here (if you'll excuse my divergence into my favorite Dany pairing). Jorah's kisses are soft and sweet; Daario's would be cruel. Jorah never sought to kiss her again after their kiss on the ship, even though he wanted to; Daario would not stop even if she commanded. Jorah is overly pragmatic but not bloodthirsty; Daario is a monster. Jorah is not handsome but gives good counsel; Daario is dashing and gives horrifying counsel. Jorah loves her as a woman; Daario makes her feel like a girl.

Now do I think Dany is some sort of masochist who delights in cruelty? Um. No. In fact I think Dany is pretty much the opposite of that--never forget that her dream is a house with a red door where she is safe and loved. What Dany is, though, is confused. Her first ever encounter with love was Drogo and Daario is a lot a like him. Both were incredibly cruel; there is a violent streak to both of them. I have no doubt that both have done their share of raping and murdering. Both have distinguishing hair-characteristics (bells and blue/purple). Both would give Dany a kingdom based on blood and brutality and skulls:

I will kill the men in the iron suits and tear down their stone houses. I will rape their women, take their children as slaves, and bring their broken gods back to Vaes Dothrak to bow down beneath the Mother of Mountains.

Dany, GoT

"You are fighting shadows when you should be fighting the men who cast them," Daario went on. "Kill them all and take their treasures, I say. Whisper the command and your Daario will make you a pile of their heads taller than this pyramid."

Dany IV, ADWD

A lot of people take this to mean that Dany likes violent thuggish brutes. But in the end, she rejects Daario for her duty, and I maintain that Dany romanticizes her own relationship with Drogo, seeing past his nasty habits, because of the guilt she feels over her sun-and-star's death. Dany doesn't mind strong protective men, but it's the wanton violent nature of Daario that gives her serious pause.

What neither Daario nor Drogo have, though, is Dany's shared desire for home. Drogo would take his men across the Narrow Sea to take the Iron Throne because until he does, Dany's life is in danger from whoever holds the Throne. And Daario will take her home because he's a sellsword who likes money, killing, and hopes to bed Dany in return and conquering Westeros allows him those opportunities .

So what is the importance of her relationship with Daario? I've said this before: he is her in-between. Before Dany can reconcile being a Queen and a woman (which I believe she will do before series end) she has to play at both. By marrying Hizdahr she will be queen, but not a woman. With Daario, she wants to be nothing more than a girl/woman but cannot be the Queen with him.

ETA: holy crap, I just wrote a lot about Dany and her relationships with men. *ducks tomatoes*

[MoIaF]

Volunteers Needed

I need volunteers to review 7 of Tyrion's chapters and 1 Quentyn chapter. Please PM if you are interested and let me know if you can review multiple chapters.

Thanks!

I have found volunteers to cover all the pending chapters. Woo hoo!

I want to thank the amazing BearQueenn87, the fantastical HelenaAndTheMachine and the super flygirl Suzanne Stormbrn. :cheers: :smileysex: :love:

[Parwan]

...

Dany's conversation with the Green Grace is interesting; coming off the heels of her approval to sharply question the wineseller's daughter (a low point for Dany), her refusal to kill some of her hostages, for me, shows that Dany isn't cold, calculating, harsh, and without mercy. Even the Grace acknowledges this:

...

A lot of times I see people calling Dany a woefully inept ruler. I do think she needs to stop being so trusting of people who aren't quite on the level, like the Green Grace with her presumptions nature. But what other course does she have in Meereen? She can leave the city, and allow those she swore to protect be put back in iron and chains. She can butcher all those who oppose her and have the city drown in blood. Why are people eager to put her down for trying to stem the blood? I'm not a political expert (I'll leave this to the others here who are far and away better than I at that) but I honestly don't know what else she is supposed to do in this situation.

...

I'll go back to some earlier points.

First off--Dany started by taking revenge. She should have started by taking control. One might maintain that this doesn't answer the question of what other course she has. Instead, this was a course she had. She didn't take it. Too bad, but what can she do now?

I don't agree with this analysis. Dany should have required that all of the former leaders swear allegiance to her. She should never have let potential enemies keep their locations of power in the pyramids. The second mistake is easily the more important one, but both can be rectified. There is no doubt that she is now the leader of the city. If she doesn't have sufficient control, then she has to take steps to gain it. There is no doubt that the city has enemies that have chosen to make war against it. This is clearly a situation when Queen Daenerys can say that those who are not with her are against her.

Furthermore, they are against Meereen. That's a second point which I have made before. The new leadership--Dany, her advisers, her soldiers, all of them--should state forcefully that the current residents of Meereen are Meereenese. They live together. They have to work together. They are all under siege. The Green Grace's comment, "Storms rage within the walls as well as without," is insufficient. The city is at war. During a war, what does one call people within the city who murder its citizens? Why shouldn't such people be called what they are--traitors? They are definitely aiding the enemy.

Furthermore, those who do not actively aid in bringing traitors to justice should not expect to retain positions of wealth and power. That's a third point. In post #230 of the last thread, I had this to say:

If rich people reduce the wages of your supporters and kick the sick and old out of their residences, then these rich people can be reminded in very strong terms of the power of the state to redistribute income.

I'll add this: The state can redistribute not only income, but also wealth, land ownership, titles, etc. In fact, this is pretty much SOP after a conquest. Dany, of course, has no intention of founding a republic. She wants to maintain some Meereenese traditions and to draw on the abilities of the Meereenese nobility. That does not mean that the former hierarchy of people and families has to be maintained as it was. The queen herself points out to Galazza Galare that "Skahaz is is noble born as well." Well, Skahaz is Kandaq, Hizdahr Loraq. Okay, but the crucial question is not which family was more noble in the past. The question is which family is loyal now? The Green Grace says, "We are an old people. Ancestors are important to us." Fine, would the ancestors want to see their city cut off by an enemy fleet and starved? Would the ancestors approve of the murder of citizens during a war? If these questions are answered "yes," then maybe Meereen needs to establish new traditions and start working on a better future. Then its descendants will have better ancestors.

There is also the matter of hostages. I'll deal with that later.

[Fire Eater]

Good job, Suzanna Stormborn.

GG

Dany telling the GG the hostages were a bluff was a major political mistake. She ended up telling the Hapry to her face that the hostages were a bluff, and undoing her endgame/ Of course, one must take into account that Dany doesn't know that.

to you, a secret was only a choice tale to whisper to Garin and Tyene in your bed of a night. Garin gossips as only the orphans can, and Tyene keeps nothing from Obara and Lady Nym. And if they knew . . . Obara is too fond of wine, and Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. And who might the Fowler twins confide in? I could not take the risk.

Still, barring that Dany doesn't know the GG is the Harpy, taking what Doran said, the GG would have told her family, and who would her family confide in? It would spread amongst the pyramids and eventually reach the Sons of the Harpy. A wise king keeps his own counsel as Cat said, and the same applies to queens.

The cowards broke in on some weavers, freedwomen who had done no harm to anyone. All they did was make beautiful things. I have a tapestry they gave me hanging over my bed. The Sons of the Harpy broke their loom and raped them before slitting their throats.

Those are likely the same freedwomen weavers whom the GG's cousin had asked for a portion of their earnings, and Dany had responded by making him buy them a loom. The connection is there.

The hostages

"Only a fool makes threats he's not prepared to carry out."

Jaime's words to Ryman Frey who threatens to hang Edmure every day. There is no point to hostages if you won't carry out the threat. I understand Dany doesn't want to kill children, she is decent human being, but if she doesn't want to kill children then she shouldn't have picked children as hostages.

Let's say she did kill one of the hostages. The GG may have been cornered, if she had the Sons of the Harpy strike again she could risk being ratted out by one of the members of the Great Masters out of fear for their children's lives, and that is without mentioning that the GG would be putting her own niece and nephew's lives at stake.

Even that was preferable to the answer of Mantarys, which came by the way of caravan in a cedar chest. Inside she had found the heads of her three envoys, pickled.

Yunkai'i complains about Dany setting fire to their envoy Grazdan's tokar, yet raise no such complaints when one of their allies actually kills envoys, because hypocrisy is a game anyone can play.

[cade]

Fire Eater,

Dany telling the Green Grace she wouldn't kill the hostages made no difference, as the Harpy had raped and murdered three freedwomen the night before.

I agree that it was a mistake to take child hostages, though it would've been an infinitely greater mistake to kill any of them. I fully agree with Parwan that Dany should've taken total control of the city and only allowed power to those loyal to a New Meereen. Hizdahr's immediate and total success in stopping the Harpy's attacks all but confirms that the Harpy is a top-down organization run and funded by elite slaver families.

[HexMachina]

TYRION VI, A Dance with Dragons

Summary:

The chapter opens with Tyrion dreaming of the Shrouded Lord. In his dream, the Shrouded Lord and his father are one and the same. He wakes up with Haldon in the room with him, and learns that Lemore has been washing him with vinegar in order to reduce his risk of greyscale.

The Shy Maid is docked at Selhorys, and Aegon is sullen at not being allowed ashore with Yandry and Ysilla. There are fears from the Triarchs of Volantis that the Dothraki will attack Selhorys.

Tyrion goads Aegon into a game of cyvasse, and learns that the babe whose head was smashed on the walls by Gregor Clegane was a tanner’s son sold to Varys for a jug of Arbor Gold.

They discuss Aegon’s claim to the Iron Throne, and the impending marriage to Dany. Tyrion plants seeds of doubt in Aegon’s mind that Daenerys will simply accept him as her consort. Aegon believes that she must accept him, claiming Tyrion does not know her. Tyrion then points out various attributes that led to his conclusion.

Aegon adamantly insists that he trusts Lord Connington as one of his blood, trusts him to make the marriage, and Tyrion tells him that he is a fool, that he should trust no-one – not the crew of the Shy Maid, not Varys/Illyrio, not even Dany. He then lays out what he would do himself: travel West to land in Dorne, raise his banners and have lords/knights flock to his cause. Then Dany will come join them with her dragons, and accept Aegon as her consort.

Tyrion then beats Aegon at cyvasse through deception, reiterating the point that he should trust no-one…and that he should keep his dragon close.

Yandry and Ysillia return to the boat, with the news that Dany remains in Meereen, surrounded by foes. There are rumours that the Volantenes mean to join the war against her. Haldon and Tyrion are sent ashore to learn the truth of these rumours.

In Selhorys, a Red Priest preaches for the Volantenes to go to war, but for the Lord of Light, not the Triarchs. He says they need to help Daenerys. Benerro of Volantis has sent forth word that her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy – she is Azor Ahai returned.

Tyrion and Haldon meet Qavo, the customs officer at Selhorys and learn that the Yunkish have sent emissaries to Volantis, and have already bought Triarch Nyessos. The real reasons for Volantis to go to war with Dany are because they are so dependent on slaves/slavery. In addition to Volantis, other foes have joined the cause against Dany – Elyria, New ghis, Tolos and even the Dothraki.

After they leave, Tyrion asks leave to visit a brothel, which Haldon allows. The chapter concludes with Tyrion seeing Jorah Mormont in the brothel, who declares his intentions to take Tyrion to the Queen.

Analysis:

The Pisswater Prince:

The lad flushed. “That was not me. I told you. That was some tanner’s son from Pisswater Bend whose mother died birthing him. His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. He had other sons but had never tasted Arbor gold. Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my mother and carried me away.

Here we get the tale of how Aegon was whisked away from King’s Landing. The story goes that he was switched with another man’s babe for a jug of Arbor gold. There are several occasions in the series where Arbor Gold is connected with lying, as laid out clearly in the Food Code of Ice and Fire. Of course, it is unknown how legitimate this “code” is, but it could be taken, among many other hints, to suggest this tale is not entirely true.

“And when the pisswater prince was safely dead, the eunuch smuggled you across the narrow sea to his fat friend the cheesemonger, who hid you on a poleboat and found an exile lord willing to call himself your father. It does make for a splendid story, and the singers will make much of your escape once you take the Iron Throne … assuming that our fair Daenerys takes you for her consort.”

This is an important quote imo. It shows us that even if Aegon is real, it is the marriage to Daenerys that will make his claim. Tyrion suspects that people will be sceptical of Aegon’s legitimacy, but knows that if he weds Daenerys this won’t truly matter. And he is accurate in this assessment, because from the Winds of Winter spoilers we know:

That even Doran Martell is reluctant to believe Aegon’s identity.

The marriage to Dany is therefore very important to Aegon/Varys/Illyrio's campaign.

“Must” is not a word Queen’s like hear:

Tyrion makes Aegon doubt Dany’s willingness to marry him. In this, he gives perhaps a more accurate assessment of her than any other character in the books, including Illyrio who has actually met her.

“Must?” Tyrion made a tsking sound. “That is not a word queens like to hear. You are her perfect prince, agreed, bright and bold and comely as any maid could wish. Daenerys Targaryen is no maid, however. She is the widow of a Dothraki khal, a mother of dragons and sacker of cities, Aegon the Conqueror with teats. She may not prove as willing as you wish.”

Aegon is the perfect Prince, a fine match for some like a Game of Thrones Sansa – not so much for the Mother of Dragons. Dany appears to like that sense of adventure and danger in her partners, and Aegon, whilst handsome enough, doesn’t really offer this. In addition, we know that this venture was likely doomed from the start, as Dany is unwilling to abandon Meereen. It would be interesting to consider whether the Golden Company and her “nephew” could convince her to abandon the city. Personally, I think not.

The Dragon Queen:

"I know that she spent her childhood in exile, impoverished, living on dreams and schemes, running from one city to the next, always fearful, never safe, friendless but for a brother who was by all accounts half-mad … a brother who sold her maidenhood to the Dothraki for the promise of an army."

I really like this quote, and I think it contrasts with Varys’ discussion of Aegon in the epilogue:

“…He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid.”

Oh does he really? I’m sure Dany could tell him a thing or two about being afraid, hunted and hungry.

I know that somewhere out upon the grass her dragons hatched, and so did she. I know she is proud. How not? What else was left her but pride? I know she is strong. How not? The Dothraki despise weakness. If Daenerys had been weak, she would have perished with Viserys.

Again, this is very accurate. When she hatched the dragons, she was born anew. She is a strong woman, of course she is. Regardless of her inner doubts, she is an inspiring and strong leader, hence why her Dothraki followed her across the Red Waste to Qarth.

I know she is fierce. Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen are proof enough of that. She has crossed the grasslands and the red waste, survived assassins and conspiracies and fell sorceries, grieved for a brother and a husband and a son, trod the cities of the slavers to dust beneath her dainty sandaled feet.

I’ve quoted this because it sums up what we have seen Dany experience across the novels in a few short sentences, which is always nice. Quite the list of achievements under her belt.

Now, how do you suppose this queen will react when you turn up with your begging bowl in hand and say, ‘Good morrow to you, Auntie. I am your nephew, Aegon, returned from the dead. I’ve been hiding on a poleboat all my life, but now I’ve washed the blue dye from my hair and I’d like a dragon, please … and oh, did I mention, my claim to the Iron Throne is stronger than your own?’”

Put so bluntly like this, Aegon’s quest seems foolish from the very beginning. In my opinion, this is because nobody seemed to truly understand Dany. Certainly not Illyrio, who housed her and her brother; to him she was first a timid little girl, and later a ruthless yet pliable woman who would abandon her people in Meereen. As Tyrion rightly points out, Aegon brings her only a small army, even smaller than that she has already acquired without his help. Dany is many things, and she does crave this sense of family, but just roll over for him? I'm not so sure.

The Rescuer:

…and she will fly to your side as fast as wind and water can carry her. You are the last of her line, and this Mother of Dragons, this Breaker of Chains, is above all a rescuer.

This is Tyrion’s first possible misstep. He believes she would willingly abandon Meereen if Aegon landed in Dorne and raised his banners. I do not believe that this would be the case, as we see later on that she is set on fixing Meereen's problems, rejecting Quentyn's marriage proposal. It is possible that this could spur her to send someone she trusts to speak with Aegon, but I doubt she would leave Meereen and her “children”.

However, it is also possible he is lying to Aegon here, because the following statement goes completely against the plan he just laid out:

“I lied. Trust no-one. And keep your dragon close.”

Azor Ahai Returned:

"Haldon nodded. “Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …”

This is the first time that we learn of the Red Priests proclaiming Dany AAR. A lot of people take this of confirmation of the opposite: that because of this, she cannot be AAR. However, I think it is important to be realistic about these things, there is only so long you can have people not proclaim the correct person, and back the wrong person. Of course, there is the possibility (which I tend to agree with) that AAR prophecy will not be fulfilled so simply.

Malicious Rumours:

We learn of some very unpleasant rumours going around about Dany, that have served to tarnish her reputation. As with many rumours, these may have small kernels of truth in them:

“Sweet?” Qavo laughed. “If even half the stories coming back from Slaver’s Bay are true, this child is a monster. They say that she is blood-thirsty, that those who speak against her are impaled on spikes to die lingering deaths.”

This is likely a reference to her crucifying the Great Masters, who “displeased” her. We have discussed this decision already, so I won’t go into it too much.

They say she is a sorceress who feeds her dragons on the flesh of newborn babes

Possibly a reference to Hazzea. If so, news of the attack has leaked from somewhere, suggesting either:

1. Drogon did not kill Hazzea after all, but it was a plot of the Harpy to discredit Dany and her dragons.
   
2. Someone that was in the throne room blabbed and is working against Dany
   

“…an 1) oathbreaker who mocks the gods, breaks truces, 2) threatens envoys, and 3) turns on those who have served her loyally.”

1. Astapor and Yunkai, which could be taken in this way. Remember we are talking about people who want to discredit Dany here, every questionable action (and even some of her good actions) are going to be blown out of proportion or put in the worst light possible
   
2. An envoy to her had his tokar burned, unless I am misremembering. Yet Mantarys was so nice to her envoys….
   
3. Ser Jorah Mormont being banished.
   

“ They say her lust cannot be sated, that she mates with men, women, eunuchs, even dogs and children, and woe betide the lover who fails to satisfy her. She gives her body to men to take their souls in thrall.”

This one, I am just going to assume is her position as a woman of power, and shows the typical rumours and lies spread about such woman in order to discredit them.

Haldon is able to see these as rumours spread specifically by the Slavers to discredit her, and says as much. To which Qavo responds:

“but the girl’s true sin cannot be denied. This arrogant child has taken it upon herself to smash the slave trade, but that traffic was never confined to Slaver’s Bay. It was part of the sea of trade that spanned the world, and the dragon queen has clouded the water.”

This is a ludicrous statement that shows the Slaver’s mindset, and really speaks volumes about Volantis. Dany must be taken down because she threatens their livelihood. They thrive on human misery, and she has dared to take that away from them, and just like the Qartheen, the Volantenes can't handle that. Qavo also mentions that the slaves of Volantis are growing restless, and that Dany’s actions are the cause. This is another reason she must go – Volantis could not handle a full scale slave revolt.

The Slave Trade Alliance:

“When the Wise Masters move against Meereen, the legions of New Ghis will fight beside them. Tolosi. Elyrians. Even the Dothraki.”

These are all the cities that Yunkai sent their emissaries to, asking for help dealing with Daenerys. We (the readers) also know that Qarth has joined the alliance against her. I bring this up because it seems the Yunkish didn’t ask Qarth for assistance, and our assessment of Xaro Xhoan Daxos was correct -he and his fellow Qartheen took it upon themselves to declare war, because the Mother of Dragons dared to disrupt “the greatest city that ever was or will be.”

A lecherous Imp:

"Oh, good, thought Tyrion. If she gives her body to me, she is welcome to my soul, small and stunted though it is.”

I brought up this quote after some consideration. Tyrion has rather lecherous thoughts about Daenerys, which could be problematic and is certainly worrying. He has a greater understanding of her, and probably realises that such comments would not be wise around her, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything with Tyrion – we have seen in the past that even when he knows it is unwise he can let his tongue wag. For example, his trial at the Eyrie, his trial in King’s Landing, time and time again with Jorah Mormont. Tyrion will need to learn to take notice of his own assessment of Daenerys and keep his thoughts to himself when he finally meets her, rather than allowing himself to make such comments to her.

Conclusion:

There is a lot of food for thought and insightful comments from Tyrion about Dany in this chapter, as well as insight into the dangers she is soon going to face from various sources. It also appears to be a very important chapter for setting up potential future conflict between Dany and Aegon.

(I did rush this a little, so there are probably many things I missed.)

[SeanF]

Taking hostages may or may not work. It doesn't work if you're fighting someone like Tywin Lannister. He loves Jaime, but is quite prepared to risk his son's life to further his ends. Both the Sack of Kings Landing, and the Red Wedding could have resulted in Jaime's death, but Tywin went ahead anyway.

There may be Great Masters who take the same view.

Asset-stripping Houses whose loyalty is suspect, and redistributing their wealth to people who are loyal is by far the best course of action, as Parwan indicates.

[HexMachina]

Asset-stripping Houses whose loyalty is suspect, and redistributing their wealth to people who are loyal is by far the best course of action, as Parwan indicates.

Dany does this in a less effective way with her blood tax. Unfortunately, its not stripping power, just wealth, and to people as rich as the Slaving families such taxes are probably negligible, hence why it does not resolve the problem and is less effective than stripping lands and titles etc. Its the beginnings of a good idea, but not fully fleshed out. You would think that Barristan or Jorah (before he was dismissed) would have thought to suggest something like this, as they come from Westeros where these things are common practice :dunno: Again, we come to the poor advisors issue

[Kyoshi]

Sorry I'm a chapter late but I just want to quickly address a few things regarding Daenerys IV. Thanks for the analysis, Suzanna!

Daario the Lothario

<snip>

I've already had this debate in another thread and a few points were raised. One of these points is that Daarion, while still an incredibly sketchy man in general, is perhaps not as high on the scale of sketchiness as Khal Drogo. In this chapter he asks her “Do you want a king?

I found this line very revealing, I doubt the Khal would have asked such a question of anyone.

Examining Danenrys's relationship with Daario, we came to the conclusion that perhaps he is the transitional partner for her: first the was Drogo the caveman character, now there is Daario the guy with layers and layers of grey but not quite as dark as the last guy. I also don't think Daario has raped anyone. As someone else mentioned in the previously mentioned thread, he seems to take pride in women wanting him. I think it's an ego thing (I hope we can all agree he's a fairly arrogant guy). I think in a way Daario is a device to show Dany's growth...in a very, strange roundabout way :dunno: Perhaps after Daario there will be the normal man, as normal as normal gets in Westros. Or Dany is the Westerosi version of Elizabeth I :dunno:

Child Hostages

I don't think taking child hostages was a blunder on Dany's part. The families of the hostages are bound to be more afraid for the lives of innocent children. That's my take on it anyway. And children are easier to control and influence. Taking up a 35 year old hostage has its disadvantages:

• On average, adults have stronger powers of deduction than a child. These people could end up assessing Dany's vulnerabilities and noting where they can hit her hardest should the opportunity present itself.
  
• Adults are hard to mold, they carry bitterness and old prejudices. This could result in some form of chaos in Dany's pyramid. However small the chaos may be, it's always wise to avoid such things.
  

Children just make far better hostages. I suppose this is why even in Westeros they prefer child hostages.

Seizing Control

I completely agree with Parwan here.

EDIT: the Green Grace is yet to be proven as the Harpy or a Harpy sympathizer.

[BearQueen87]

[snip]

Yes that all makes sense, thanks

Sorry I'm a chapter late but I just want to quickly address a few things regarding Danenrys IV. Thanks for the analysis Suzanna!

Daario the Lothario

I've already had this debate in another thread and a few points were raised. One of these points is that Daarion, while still an incredibly sketchy man in general, is perhaps not as high on the scale of sketchiness as Khal Drogo. In this chapter he asks her “Do you want a king?

I found this line very revealing, I doubt the Khal would have asked such a question of anyone.

Examining Danenrys's relationship with Daario, we came to the conclusion that perhaps he is the transitional partner for her: first the was Drogo the caveman character, now there is Daario the guy with layers and layers of grey but not quite as dark as the last guy. I also don't think Daario has raped anyone. As someone else mentioned in the previously mentioned thread, he seems to take pride in women wanting him. I think it's an ego thing (I hope we can all agree he's a fairly arrogant guy). I think in a way Daario is a device to show Dany's growth...in a very, strange roundabout way :dunno: Perhaps after Daario there will be the normal man, as normal as normal gets in Westros. Or Dany is the Westeros version of Elizabeth I :dunno:

I do think Daario is important to Dany's growth as a character in that he does help her realize that she does want to be a woman, and I think being with him has reminded her that her first dream is always the house with the red door. The problem is the guy she's associating with the house with the red door--it's nothing Daario would ever want because Daario doesn't care for Dany, but the Dragon Queen.

Child Hostages

I don't think taking child hostages was a blunder on Dany's part. The families of the hostages are bound to be more afraid for the lives of innocent children. That's my take on it anyway. And children are easier to control and influence. Taking up a 35 year old hostage has its disadvantages:

• On average, adults have stronger powers of deduction than a child. These people could end up assessing Dany's vulnerabilities and noting where they can hit her hardest should the opportunity present itself.

• Adults are hard to mold, they carry bitterness and old prejudices. This could result in some form of chaos in Dany's pyramid. However small the chaos may be, it's always wise to avoid such things.

Children just make far better hostages. I suppose this is why even in Westeros they prefer child hostages.

I have to agree. And the fact that the Sons of the Harpy are still committing these horrors, knowing that Dany could kill a child if pressed, just shows their level of depravity. Even if they think that Dany might never hurt one of her hostages, the Shavepate might take it upon himself to hurt one. So the Sons are risking children's lives for their own agenda. Now, Dany does need to recognize that and take action.

Oh good! A new chapter! Thoughts on Tyrion's chapter from Helena soon!

[Kyoshi]

I have to agree. And the fact that the Sons of the Harpy are still committing these horrors, knowing that Dany could kill a child if pressed, just shows their level of depravity. Even if they think that Dany might never hurt one of her hostages, the Shavepate might take it upon himself to hurt one. So the Sons are risking children's lives for their own agenda. Now, Dany does need to recognize that and take action.

I've always wondered about that. I suppose that's one of the reasons people have for believing GG to be the Harpy, she already knows.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Very nice job!

I'm curious. How many of us believe that the Green Grace is the Harpy and Hizdzhr is her most loyal servant?

Dany's conversation with the Green Grace is interesting; coming off the heels of her approval to sharply question the wineseller's daughter (a low point for Dany), her refusal to kill some of her hostages, for me, shows that Dany isn't cold, calculating, harsh, and without mercy. Even the Grace acknowledges this:

Above all Dany's concern is the children: "what good is peace if it must be purchased with the blood of little children?" Dany does not want to be a butcher queen, she has a gentler heart as Jorah told her the first time Dany decided to step up and rescue a hurt and crying people: the Lamb Men. If I had to pick one moment from the series that defines Dany it might be that one. "You cannot claim them all," Jorah tells her, and Dany's response is more or less, "the hell I can't." Since then she has been claiming people: the slaves, the children, the weak and unprotected. She wants to save them all. Maybe Jorah, ever the pragmatist, is right and you can't claim them all, but Dany is going to try. And so long as these hostages are under her roof, she is going to try and save them from the Shavepate. I think this is something people forget when they begin listing Dany's crimes. If it means marrying a man she does not love or, I think, even remotely like, then she'll marry Hizdahr. If it means chaining her dragons (and her metaphorical dragon) then she'll do that.

A lot of times I see people calling Dany a woefully inept ruler. I do think she needs to stop being so trusting of people who aren't quite on the level, like the Green Grace with her presumptions nature. But what other course does she have in Meereen? She can leave the city, and allow those she swore to protect be put back in iron and chains. She can butcher all those who oppose her and have the city drown in blood. Why are people eager to put her down for trying to stem the blood? I'm not a political expert (I'll leave this to the others here who are far and away better than I at that) but I honestly don't know what else she is supposed to do in this situation.

I believe that the GG and Skahaz and Hizdahr are all working against Dany to their own ends. They are all connected to the 'noble' blood of Meereen and they all have the interest of the Harpy at the front of their minds. None of them want Dany to be there, they hate her, they are all trying to cause war and destruction to get her out. I think the harpy is GG or Skahaz. And yes Hizdahr is working for the Harpy.

I agree that Dany is faced with difficult decisions, and I dont care what anyone says, killing the child hostages would be a bad idea.

Good job, Suzanna Stormborn.

GG

Dany telling the GG the hostages were a bluff was a major political mistake. She ended up telling the Hapry to her face that the hostages were a bluff, and undoing her endgame/ Of course, one must take into account that Dany doesn't know that.

to you, a secret was only a choice tale to whisper to Garin and Tyene in your bed of a night. Garin gossips as only the orphans can, and Tyene keeps nothing from Obara and Lady Nym. And if they knew . . . Obara is too fond of wine, and Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. And who might the Fowler twins confide in? I could not take the risk.

Still, barring that Dany doesn't know the GG is the Harpy, taking what Doran said, the GG would have told her family, and who would her family confide in? It would spread amongst the pyramids and eventually reach the Sons of the Harpy. A wise king keeps his own counsel as Cat said, and the same applies to queens.

The cowards broke in on some weavers, freedwomen who had done no harm to anyone. All they did was make beautiful things. I have a tapestry they gave me hanging over my bed. The Sons of the Harpy broke their loom and raped them before slitting their throats.

Those are likely the same freedwomen weavers whom the GG's cousin had asked for a portion of their earnings, and Dany had responded by making him buy them a loom. The connection is there.

The hostages

"Only a fool makes threats he's not prepared to carry out."

Jaime's words to Ryman Frey who threatens to hang Edmure every day. There is no point to hostages if you won't carry out the threat. I understand Dany doesn't want to kill children, she is decent human being, but if she doesn't want to kill children then she shouldn't have picked children as hostages.

Let's say she did kill one of the hostages. The GG may have been cornered, if she had the Sons of the Harpy strike again she could risk being ratted out by one of the members of the Great Masters out of fear for their children's lives, and that is without mentioning that the GG would be putting her own niece and nephew's lives at stake.

Even that was preferable to the answer of Mantarys, which came by the way of caravan in a cedar chest. Inside she had found the heads of her three envoys, pickled.

Yunkai'i complains about Dany setting fire to their envoy Grazdan's tokar, yet raise no such complaints when one of their allies actually kills envoys, because hypocrisy is a game anyone can play.

My opinion is that child hostages are more of an act of good faith. Like Theon was to Ned. I guess you can sort of see them as a tool, but they are still children.

Dany was smart to take hostages in the situation, it's what anyone in Westeros would have done. The problem is, that the people she is fighting are monsters and dont care about their own children. They know Dany has them as hostage and they dont care. Even before Dany admits to the GG that she wont kill them , there are more killings of Dany's freedmen/women. So obviously the children meant nothing to their own families. In fact, they mean more to Dany than they ever did to their own families. Dany is dealing with monsters who give her NO choices. In her mind, killing children is not a choice and I think she is awesome for that. She is between a rock and a hard place and it speaks volumes to her character that she cares more about the lives of the children than their families/parents do. They basically offered them to Dany to be slaughtered as there was clearly never any intention to stop killing Dany's men.

In Westeros we never see any of the 'wards' or hostages get killed in the great houses do we? IIRC there are none that actually get killed, I could be wrong, but it doesnt seem like there are many. It would be terrible for Dany to be the first one to make good on a threat like this. Some threats are not worth it. It would have haunted her and she would have regretted it forever if she had killed them.

Fire Eater,

Dany telling the Green Grace she wouldn't kill the hostages made no difference, as the Harpy had raped and murdered three freedwomen the night before.

I agree that it was a mistake to take child hostages, though it would've been an infinitely greater mistake to kill any of them. I fully agree with Parwan that Dany should've taken total control of the city and only allowed power to those loyal to a New Meereen. Hizdahr's immediate and total success in stopping the Harpy's attacks all but confirms that the Harpy is a top-down organization run and funded by elite slaver families.

I dont think it was a mistake to take the child hostages. In any decent city the fact that she had the hostages should have been enough to stop the killings, but no no not with these dirty, slaving, underhanded Meereeneese. They are a nasty evil bunch, and they sacrificed these children without a second thought.

And on a side note, I suspect the only reason they gave her these hostages was so that they could continue killing and Dany would be forced to kill the hostages, which would only incite the wealthy slavers even more. In short they were planted to make Dany look more like a monster to the Meereeneese. Props to Dany for not falling for their terrible, abhorrent trick.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I have to agree. And the fact that the Sons of the Harpy are still committing these horrors, knowing that Dany could kill a child if pressed, just shows their level of depravity. Even if they think that Dany might never hurt one of her hostages, the Shavepate might take it upon himself to hurt one. So the Sons are risking children's lives for their own agenda. Now, Dany does need to recognize that and take action.

Oh good! A new chapter! Thoughts on Tyrion's chapter from Helena soon!

Exactly!

[SeanF]

I believe that the GG and Skahaz and Hizdahr are all working against Dany to their own ends. They are all connected to the 'noble' blood of Meereen and they all have the interest of the Harpy at the front of their minds. None of them want Dany to be there, they hate her, they are all trying to cause war and destruction to get her out. I think the harpy is GG or Skahaz. And yes Hizdahr is working for the Harpy.

...........................................

And on a side note, I suspect the only reason they gave her these hostages was so that they could continue killing and Dany would be forced to kill the hostages, which would only incite the wealthy slavers even more. In short they were planted to make Dany look more like a monster to the Meereeneese. Props to Dany for not falling for their terrible, abhorrent trick.

I'm not convinced that Skahaz is in league with Dany's enemies. There seems to be a good deal of enmity among them. It could be that this is all an elaborate bluff, but I think it's more likely that he sees the chance to raise his status, at the expense of his rivals, by serving Dany. For example, after he overthrew Hizdahr, he wanted to kill him.

WRT the hostages, as I said upthread, Tywin is an example of someone who will put his own son at risk, if he thinks it's in the interests of his House. Doubtless there are other lords in the series who take the same cold-blooded view.

[HexMachina]

I believe that the GG and Skahaz and Hizdahr are all working against Dany to their own ends. They are all connected to the 'noble' blood of Meereen and they all have the interest of the Harpy at the front of their minds. None of them want Dany to be there, they hate her, they are all trying to cause war and destruction to get her out. I think the harpy is GG or Skahaz. And yes Hizdahr is working for the Harpy.

I think Skahaz is working independently of Hizdhar, Reznak and the Green Grace. I think he is using Dany for his own ends, but not with the Harpy in mind, just his own personal advancement (much like Littlefinger). For now, that means keeping Dany in power and manipulating her where he can, removing those that will hinder his advancement. By contrast, the Green Grace, Hizdhar and Reznak seek to make Meereen as a whole "great" again. Different from how it was in the past yes (they recognise that they need to adapt to a changing world) but they are very much for a new "Harpy" led Meereen. These two parties aren't working together imo, and probably are legitimately at odds with each other.

ETA:

WRT the hostages, as I said upthread, Tywin is an example of someone who will put his own son at risk, if he thinks it's in the interests of his House. Doubtless there are other lords in the series who take the same cold-blooded view.

Balon. He had given Theon up as lost. Only good fortune (or plot :p) brought him back to the Iron Islands.

[SeanF]

ETA:

Balon. He had given Theon up as lost. Only good fortune (or plot :P) brought him back to the Iron Islands.

There are probably quite a few major political players who would certainly avenge a child of theirs who was killed as a hostage, but wouldn't be deterred from putting that child's life at risk if the potential gain was great enough.

One may have other children, or grandchildren, who can continue the family line, or one can marry again and have new children, if necessary.