Bad Writing

[Friendly Thenn]

I'm getting sick of seeing posts and comments giving out about this character arc or that plot line claiming it is bad writing.

If GRRM decides to take his story in a direction we don't understand (possibly because we have absolutely no idea what happens after ADWD except for a few sample chapters and interviews), that does not in any way make it bad writing.

If he wants to bring characters back from the dead, I will be wary of it but i will trust that the sole architect of the ASOIAF universe does, in fact, know what he is doing, and i will come to love it just as much as ice-zombies invading the world, magical child-size-methuzelahs tending to a centurion with a tree growing through him, magical assassins with hidden agendas, the lot. Because at the end of the day, this is his work, his story, and i am loving every page of it.

[willofDorne]

I'm getting sick of seeing posts and comments giving out about this character arc or that plot line claiming it is bad writing.

If GRRM decides to take his story in a direction we don't understand (possibly because we have absolutely no idea what happens after ADWD except for a few sample chapters and interviews), that does not in any way make it bad writing.

If he wants to bring characters back from the dead, I will be wary of it but i will trust that the sole architect of the ASOIAF universe does, in fact, know what he is doing, and i will come to love it just as much as ice-zombies invading the world, magical child-size-methuzelahs tending to a centurion with a tree growing through him, magical assassins with hidden agendas, the lot. Because at the end of the day, this is his work, his story, and i am loving every page of it.

Most of the people who will claim "bad writing" will be wrong then. Good writing isn't exactly a science. I think his work can go any number of ways and still be considered "Good" but some people won't be satisfied unless they see specific things come to pass. That's sad, but their loss. After they've burnt their books and scattered them to the wind, they'll realize how foolish they were, and have to go back to Barnes and Noble to buy the book again and see what why they were wrong.

[GreatGatsby]

Translation- GRRM is god, how dare us plebs criticize his work. Can't you understand everything is part of a master plan?

And lol at that bolded "his story" part. So what? Does that mean we can't comment on it?

GRRM apologists will always comment on how "he's not your bitch". People never said he is, but you certainly seem to be his.

[sj4iy]

Martin has the right to write anything he wants. And we have the right to praise and criticize it as we want. Absolutely nothing states that I must enjoy every single thing he has written, and if I feel his has made a mistake, I have every right to declare it as such. No author is infallible- especially GRRM.

You have the right to disagree with me, of course, but you don't get to tell me what I should think.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Translation- GRRM is god, how dare us plebs criticize his work. Can't you understand everything is part of a master plan?

And lol at that bolded "his story" part. So what? Does that mean we can't comment on it?

GRRM apologists will always comment on how "he's not your bitch". People never said he is, but you certainly seem to be his.

If you don't like his work, you have the chance to stop reading it and choose something you consider a "better writing" instead.

Or... you could wait and finish the story so we could know what exactly was needed and what is not.

[The King in Black]

Translation- GRRM is god, how dare us plebs criticize his work. Can't you understand everything is part of a master plan?

And lol at that bolded "his story" part. So what? Does that mean we can't comment on it?

GRRM apologists will always comment on how "he's not your bitch". People never said he is, but you certainly seem to be his.

While I agree GRRM ain't god you sure seem to be over invested in a his stories and even fandom for a guy who's sick of asoiaf

[JonisHenryTudor]

Martin has the right to write anything he wants. And we have the right to praise and criticize it as we want. Absolutely nothing states that I must enjoy every single thing he has written, and if I feel his has made a mistake, I have every right to declare it as such. No author is infallible- especially GRRM.

You have the right to disagree with me, of course, but you don't get to tell me what I should think.

This.

Also from what I have seen people are making that claim based on how things may turn out. For example, people who declare, without a doubt, that Jon is dead or should stay dead. Those of us who see otherwise argue that if that were the case it would be bad writing, because Martin spent countless pages, clues, etc making Jon's heritage a rather important part of the story. If Jon did stay dead (he is not), then that would be bad writing according to myself and many others.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Most of the time on this forum "bad writing" really means "I don't like it."

I don't mind actual critiques, but a lot of people have taken to throwing out "bad writing" instead of just saying they disagree with something. Disagreeing with something does not make it bad.

Also from what I have seen people are making that claim based on how things may turn out. For example, people who declare, without a doubt, that Jon is dead or should stay dead. Those of us who see otherwise argue that if that were the case it would be bad writing, because Martin spent countless pages, clues, etc making Jon's heritage a rather important part of the story. If Jon did stay dead (he is not), then that would be bad writing according to myself and many others.

Not if there is a purpose for the death. Killing him off for no reason would be bad writing, but if it serves the story in an important way then it wouldn't be. See, I don't worry about "bad writing" because I haven't seen any in this series yet, and I think the author actually knows what he's doing and won't do something that would in fact be "bad writing." I also think Jon is alive.

Translation- GRRM is god, how dare us plebs criticize his work. Can't you understand everything is part of a master plan?

And lol at that bolded "his story" part. So what? Does that mean we can't comment on it?

GRRM apologists will always comment on how "he's not your bitch". People never said he is, but you certainly seem to be his.

Way to twist the OPs words and deliberately take them out of context. Oh and the backdoor name calling is really classy.

No one said you can't comment. The bolded part of "his story" is to indicate that gee whiz, maybe the guy who invented the story actually knows where it's going, unlike those of us who...don't.

GRRM aplogists? :lmao: What does that make you? A GRRM polemicist? The guy isn't running for emperor, he's writing some books.

[cxvb]

... maybe the guy who invented the story actually knows where it's going, unlike those of us who...don't.

Have you heard of the Meereenese Knot? Exhibit 1 in the argument, that Martin does not necessarily know what he's doing, that he doesn't always have a plan, and most importantly, that he himself recognises different solutions and eventually picks the one he is least unhappy with. Which in turn means, that in many cases good arguments will be available as to why a different choice would have been better.

Ultimately it comes down to legitimate, considered criticism and good arguments vs. bad arguments. Unfortunately, however well intended and however much there is a point worth considering associated with it, the OP is a very bad argument. If your emotional agreement/taking sides means the OP is valid anyway, then all the lousy "bad writing" arguments are equally valid because they can use the "nugget of truth" defense just as easily.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Have you heard of the Meereenese Knot? Exhibit 1 in the argument, that Martin does not necessarily know what he's doing, that he doesn't always have a plan, and most importantly, that he himself recognises different solutions and eventually picks the one he is least unhappy with. Which in turn means, that in many cases good arguments will be available as to why a different choice would have been better.

Ultimately it comes down to legitimate, considered criticism and good arguments vs. bad arguments. Unfortunately, however well intended and however much there is a point worth considering associated with it, the OP is a very bad argument. If your emotional agreement/taking sides means the OP is valid anyway, then all the lousy "bad writing" arguments are equally valid because they can use the "nugget of truth" defense just as easily.

Have you heard of writer's block? That doesn't mean he doesn't know where the story is going. It just means he's having trouble getting one character from Point U to Point V. The crux of the story was decided long before he got to Meereen, which is really just a way-station on the journey. He knows where Dany will end up, and the basics of how she will get there. It's the details that present problems, not the main plot points. I write the same way. I know whereof I speak on this particular issue.

Did I say the OP made a good case? No. I did say that a lot of the "bad writing" that gets mentioned is not about the quality of the writing but what the poster does or does not want to happen. I understand the OP's frustration. Doesn't mean I agree with his reasoning. I'm one of those strange people who is able to acknowledge a good point when I see it, even if I don't agree with the rest of what is said.

[ChillyPolly]

I'm getting sick of seeing posts and comments giving out about this character arc or that plot line claiming it is bad writing.

The only part of all this I agree with is that is is hard to judge a particular plot thread until we see where it fits into the whole. But for how long must we reserve judgment? There is no whole at present, and perhaps will never be a whole. Until then, GRRM has no particular right to be worshiped as a Great Author, and/or declared to be the "American Tolkien" (or whatever) on the basis of blind faith alone. Ultimately, an author is judged by his readers. This is true even when, as here, his readers are forced to judge him on what may be less-than-complete evidence. Sorry. That's just the way it is.

If you had a particular plot thread in mind I might agree with you. But as a general principle? No way!

[JonisHenryTudor]

Most of the time on this forum "bad writing" really means "I don't like it."

I don't mind actual critiques, but a lot of people have taken to throwing out "bad writing" instead of just saying they disagree with something. Disagreeing with something does not make it bad.

Not if there is a purpose for the death. Killing him off for no reason would be bad writing, but if it serves the story in an important way then it wouldn't be. See, I don't worry about "bad writing" because I haven't seen any in this series yet, and I think the author actually knows what he's doing and won't do something that would in fact be "bad writing." I also think Jon is alive.

Way to twist the OPs words and deliberately take them out of context. Oh and the backdoor name calling is really classy.

No one said you can't comment. The bolded part of "his story" is to indicate that gee whiz, maybe the guy who invented the story actually knows where it's going, unlike those of us who...don't.

GRRM aplogists? :lmao: What does that make you? A GRRM polemicist? The guy isn't running for emperor, he's writing some books.

Yes of course, but what would be his purpose considering all the information we have now? It just wouldn't make much sense.

Chilly Polly - exactly, it is really no different than criticizing a musicians music. You can hate the first cd, but of course there will be those who will pull the "you need to wait for their entire career to unfold before you can...."

[Robb_Warged]

I'm getting sick of seeing posts and comments giving out about this character arc or that plot line claiming it is bad writing.

If GRRM decides to take his story in a direction we don't understand (possibly because we have absolutely no idea what happens after ADWD except for a few sample chapters and interviews), that does not in any way make it bad writing.

If he wants to bring characters back from the dead, I will be wary of it but i will trust that the sole architect of the ASOIAF universe does, in fact, know what he is doing, and i will come to love it just as much as ice-zombies invading the world, magical child-size-methuzelahs tending to a centurion with a tree growing through him, magical assassins with hidden agendas, the lot. Because at the end of the day, this is his work, his story, and i am loving every page of it.

But with this logic no one could ever question or critique the works of others

I agree that some criticism may be negated once we see everything when the series finishes

[aryagonnakill#2]

I believe people have a right to their opinion, and that this is the place for them to express it. I for 1 enjoyed reading LOTR overall but will argue all day with anyone that the eagles in those stories is an example of bad writing. You can like something as a whole and dislike parts of it. Yes its grrm's story, but that doesn't mean someone can't dislike parts of it.

[Red Tiger]

So many posts deleted...why?

[King Cheops]

Or... you could wait and finish the story so we could know what exactly was needed and what is not.

Just don't hold your breath on that one.

His first 3 books were fairly tight and managed to convey a lot of world building and history without rambling and still advancing the storyline (both the game of thrones and the song of ice and fire). 4 and 5 are no where near as concise. I think it is perfectly fair to say that there's been a drop off in quality over the course of the series. We've also seen him backtrack on stuff like the planned timeline.

He's taking longer to write books that have objectively less story in them. Seems like a valid complaint to me.

[sj4iy]

So many posts deleted...why?

Server reset. It wasn't because of anything anyone said.

[Perfidious Algernon]

Leave Britney alone!

[yolkboy]

So many posts deleted...why?

They tried to update the connected wiki and it f'ed up, so they needed to roll back a few hours.

[Red Tiger]

I'm getting sick of seeing posts and comments giving out about this character arc or that plot line claiming it is bad writing.

If GRRM decides to take his story in a direction we don't understand (possibly because we have absolutely no idea what happens after ADWD except for a few sample chapters and interviews), that does not in any way make it bad writing.

If he wants to bring characters back from the dead, I will be wary of it but i will trust that the sole architect of the ASOIAF universe does, in fact, know what he is doing, and i will come to love it just as much as ice-zombies invading the world, magical child-size-methuzelahs tending to a centurion with a tree growing through him, magical assassins with hidden agendas, the lot. Because at the end of the day, this is his work, his story, and i am loving every page of it.

My friend he took 6 years to make DWD, easily one of the worst books in the series. Just because you absolutely love it does not mean others aren't allow to criticize it. There's plenty of reason to criticize where this series is going.