Confused about (f?)aegon...

[Lady Blizzardborn]

It is hilarious to me that someone who uses the name Martell as part of his screen name is so averse to the idea of female-line inheritance.

Where's that book Arianne was given to read? Wasn't it about Dornish law and customs? We need to find that for Dorian Martell. It's important to know your heritage.

[No Song so Sweet]

Anyway main conclusion: If Aegon is fake then it doesn't matter if he is descended from the Blackfyres, he has no claim to the throne. If Aegon is the real deal then he has the best claim that is not fictional. Then follows Stan the Man Baratheon who in turn trumps Daenerys in terms of real claim.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Anyway main conclusion: If Aegon is fake then it doesn't matter if he is descended from the Blackfyres, he has no claim to the throne. If Aegon is the real deal then he has the best claim that is not fictional. Then follows Stan the Man Baratheon who in turn trumps Daenerys in terms of real claim.

I think the reason that his ancestry could be important is that he might need sufficient Targ blood to ride a dragon for DoD 2.0. I believe he will do so and his Targ blood (through his Blackfyre ancestor and possibly on the other side a Brightflame or Bittersteel ancestor) will be instrumental in his ability to bond with the dragon and become a dragon rider.

[Dorian Martell]

It is hilarious to me that someone who uses the name Martell as part of his screen name is so averse to the idea of female-line inheritance.

Where's that book Arianne was given to read? Wasn't it about Dornish law and customs? We need to find that for Dorian Martell. It's important to know your heritage.

Both of you have failed to read any of my responses. I do appreciate your collective attempt at sarcasm tho. Keep working on it.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

It is hilarious to me that someone who uses the name Martell as part of his screen name is so averse to the idea of female-line inheritance.

Was one of my first thoughts. I know GRRM says this is a play on War of the Roses, but it really feels more like Roman history (Rome/KL are burning). Was common for a rich woman from a noble family to keep her name and give it to her children over the father's name. It still happens today, although it is quite rare.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I think it just implies a battle with dragons on both sides

:agree:

It doesn't have to be 2 Targs.

[No Song so Sweet]

Both of you have failed to read any of my responses. I do appreciate your collective attempt at sarcasm tho. Keep working on it.

I really think your posts were right I don't get why the bashing

[UnmaskedLurker]

I really think your posts were right I don't get why the bashing

At least for me, the criticism of Dorian Martell's post is because I think DM is creating a straw man argument. I don't necessarily disagree with the point he makes, I just don't think they are relevant to the question being asked. DM is making the point that even if (f)Aegon is a descendant of the Blackfyres, he is not of House Blackfyre because (f)Aegon's father could not have been of House Blackfyre (as the male line died out). So what? That point is a technical point that, even if true, is completely irrelevant to any point that anyone else is making. While the name "Blackfyre" might not apply to (f)Aegon for the technical reasons that DM is making, that does not mean that (f)Aegon is not the rightful "heir" to the Blackfyre dynasty. In other words, under the laws of succession, if Daemon Blackfyre is considered the "true king" by his followers, then (f)Aegon could be the person with the best claim to that dynasty--through the only remaining female descendants. And the point about a female Blackfyre having a bastard that could no inherit is irrelevant, as there is no evidence that (f)Aegon is a bastard or has a bastard ancestor. So when people call (f)Aegon a "Backfyre" they are using short-hand for "the person who would have the strongest claim to inherit the Blackfyre dynasty under laws of succession and treating Daemon Blackfyre as having been the true king." I think you can see why people short-hand that to calling (f)Aegon a "Blackfyre" even if not technically correct. DM"s argument that semantics are important is simply wrong. The substance is what is important. And the substance is that (f)Aegon is believed, by some (myself included) likely to be the person who would inherit the Blackfyre dynasty (under Westerosi--not necessarily Dorne--but even Targaryen Westrosi laws of inheritance that go to females if no males are available) if Deamon Blackfyre is considered to have been the rightful king. In other words, if all the facts were known by followers of the Blackfyre dynasty, they would consider (f)Aegon to be king because he would be the descendant of the Blackfyre line with the strongest claim to the "Blackfyre throne."

And also important is that it really does not matter what people in general would think of (f)Aegon's claim. Only Illyrio and Varys really matter. And assuming they consider (f)Aegon to be the rightful heir to the Blackfyre dynasty, it does not matter if they call (f)Aegon Blackfyre in private or not. To the world, they will continue to portray him as Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Elia. He will be on the throne (if he is on the throne) as a Targaryen and not a Blackfyre. Illyrio and Varys obviously are not concerned about continuing the name. They want to put this particular individual on the throne--using whatever name will work.

So basically, in my view, DM is making technical semantic arguments that have very little to do with what people are really debating. That might explain some of the bashing.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Anyway main conclusion: If Aegon is fake then it doesn't matter if he is descended from the Blackfyres, he has no claim to the throne. If Aegon is the real deal then he has the best claim that is not fictional. Then follows Stan the Man Baratheon who in turn trumps Daenerys in terms of real claim.

If Aegon's claim comes first than Stannis' claim comes third, after Daenerys. Stannis only has a better claim than Daenerys if Robert's kin come first but that would also put Stannis ahead of Aegon.

Both of you have failed to read any of my responses. I do appreciate your collective attempt at sarcasm tho. Keep working on it.

Thanks. I'm a bit rusty, but I think I'm improving. ;)

[Dorian Martell]

I really think your posts were right I don't get why the bashing

It's not bashing, it is just the internet. folks have their opinions. That is why we are all here. It is nice to find someone that agrees with me

If Aegon's claim comes first than Stannis' claim comes third, after Daenerys. Stannis only has a better claim than Daenerys if Robert's kin come first but that would also put Stannis ahead of Aegon.

Thanks. I'm a bit rusty, but I think I'm improving. ;)

i sure there will be more opportunities to practice ;-)

[tydides]

You know, I read a recent r/asoiaf poll. It seems that the theory among readers is not as popular as it seems, with only 60% (I think that was the result) believing Aegon is a Blackfyre. Compare that to R+L=J being 95-99%

[Dorian Martell]

At least for me, the criticism of Dorian Martell's post is because I think DM is creating a straw man argument. I don't necessarily disagree with the point he makes, I just don't think they are relevant to the question being asked. DM is making the point that even if (f)Aegon is a descendant of the Blackfyres, he is not of House Blackfyre because (f)Aegon's father could not have been of House Blackfyre (as the male line died out). So what? That point is a technical point that, even if true, is completely irrelevant to any point that anyone else is making. While the name "Blackfyre" might not apply to (f)Aegon for the technical reasons that DM is making, that does not mean that (f)Aegon is not the rightful "heir" to the Blackfyre dynasty. In other words, under the laws of succession, if Daemon Blackfyre is considered the "true king" by his followers, then (f)Aegon could be the person with the best claim to that dynasty--through the only remaining female descendants. And the point about a female Blackfyre having a bastard that could no inherit is irrelevant, as there is no evidence that (f)Aegon is a bastard or has a bastard ancestor. So when people call (f)Aegon a "Backfyre" they are using short-hand for "the person who would have the strongest claim to inherit the Blackfyre dynasty under laws of succession and treating Daemon Blackfyre as having been the true king." I think you can see why people short-hand that to calling (f)Aegon a "Blackfyre" even if not technically correct. DM"s argument that semantics are important is simply wrong. The substance is what is important. And the substance is that (f)Aegon is believed, by some (myself included) likely to be the person who would inherit the Blackfyre dynasty (under Westerosi--not necessarily Dorne--but even Targaryen Westrosi laws of inheritance that go to females if no males are available) if Deamon Blackfyre is considered to have been the rightful king. In other words, if all the facts were known by followers of the Blackfyre dynasty, they would consider (f)Aegon to be king because he would be the descendant of the Blackfyre line with the strongest claim to the "Blackfyre throne."

And also important is that it really does not matter what people in general would think of (f)Aegon's claim. Only Illyrio and Varys really matter. And assuming they consider (f)Aegon to be the rightful heir to the Blackfyre dynasty, it does not matter if they call (f)Aegon Blackfyre in private or not. To the world, they will continue to portray him as Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Elia. He will be on the throne (if he is on the throne) as a Targaryen and not a Blackfyre. Illyrio and Varys obviously are not concerned about continuing the name. They want to put this particular individual on the throne--using whatever name will work.

So basically, in my view, DM is making technical semantic arguments that have very little to do with what people are really debating. That might explain some of the bashing.

First of all, it is not a straw man argument, it is a technical/semantic argument based on the precedence set up in the story, and this being a fantasy story made up of thousands of pages of text, and if GRRM is as amazing of a story teller as we all claim him to be, semantics are everything. Like "snow" versus "Snow." Being a descendant of and being the scion/heir to a house can be quite different. As I have put earlier, the laws of inheritance are quite strict in that regard, with the exception being in my southron homeland ;)

[Lord Reaver]

Dorne has a system of absolute primogeniture, because proponents of that system have consistently held greater power there than it's opponents.

Mmm, calling it a "system" is a bit generous. The ruling house, the Martells have practiced it, and most houses have emulated them. A significant deviation from this seems to be House Yronwood, where Anders Yronwood seems very much against absolute cognatic inheritance.

[No Song so Sweet]

If Aegon's claim comes first than Stannis' claim comes third, after Daenerys. Stannis only has a better claim than Daenerys if Robert's kin come first but that would also put Stannis ahead of Aegon.

Thanks. I'm a bit rusty, but I think I'm improving. ;)

Stannis has a better claim because Daenerys actually "breaks" the chain of succession for a lot of reasons.

If Aegon is real then Robert was never actually king, because the true king was Aegon who was always alive. However if Aegon is fake then Stannis is the heir to Robert, who was king, and the previous king at that. You could argue that Robert was still a usurper and Daenerys was in fact the closest thing to an heir to Aerys, but she doesn't count because she is a woman fr, therefore ever Robert had a better claim than hers.

However Stannis IMO has a good claim because in any case, the new dynasty is the Baratheons, not the Targaryens, so if the Targaryens come again into power then they will be breaking the new line of succession. The dynasty would be new IMO only if Aegon is fake though.

[UnmaskedLurker]

You could argue that Robert was still a usurper and Daenerys was in fact the closest thing to an heir to Aerys, but she doesn't count because she is a woman fr, therefore ever Robert had a better claim than hers.

I want to address this one sentence. I think you are misunderstanding the Targ inheritance rules when you make this point. Yes, male heirs come before female heirs. But first, we don't know how far up the chain it goes before it is too far removed from a current line. So we know that brothers of the king inherit over daughters of the king, perhaps, but what about great, great, great uncles, we don't know. That issue, however, is not even directly relevant to whether Robert comes before Dany in the Targ dynasty. He cannot. His claim is through his Targaryen grandmother, who obviously would be female. His claim is derivative of her claim, and her claim is inferior to Dany's claim. Robert may have come next in line after Dany in the Targ line, but he cannot come before her because his Targ grandmother would not have come before her.

Think of it this way, what if Rhaego had lived? He would come before Robert. But if Robert is already king, it would be too late. Inheritance rules generally should not be written in a way where who becomes king (or queen) depends on whether the person is born before or after the last king dies. Given the people cannot have children after they are dead (or at least not more than 9 months after death), this issue does not come up with inheritance rules that are written properly (which is why they wait until the baby is born to see if it is a boy or girl before determining who has the right to coronation where that issue becomes relevant). Putting Robert ahead of Dany would thus create such a potential problem, and so it is almost certainly not the case that Robert comes before Dany in the Targ line.

[No Song so Sweet]

Yes you are right i forgot that Robert's claim also comes from a woman, his grandmother. But I still think Dany's claim, because it is not immediate, is worse than Stannis.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

I think Dany technically lost any claim to the throne. It was gained and created via conquest, so I think the Targ's lost their claim. Who really knows, there isn't a constitution or court system in Westeros. Just single combat.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think Dany technically lost any claim to the throne. It was gained and created via conquest, so I think the Targ's lost their claim. Who really knows, there isn't a constitution or court system in Westeros. Just single combat.

That is a different point--and one that has merit. I was discussing who was the best claim assuming the Targ dynasty had been re-instituted. For example, after Napoleon, the French re-instituted the old monarchy. A Grand Council in Westeros could do the same thing. But I agree that ultimately at some level might makes right. But if that is the issue, then there is really nothing to discuss. I think the point of this discussion was to talk about alternative theories for claims to the throne and who should be considered to have the stronger claim. That issue is more interesting to discuss because there is actually something to discuss.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Ultimately I think the readers and the characters will have different impressions. Whatever comes of Jon and (f)Aegon, it's unlikely that the population of Westeros will know. That being said, Jon and Aegon come before Dany, as sons of the heir. But I think all of this is a pointless circular discussion. Cersei is so burning KL down. Gotta finish her father's work.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Ultimately I think the readers and the characters will have different impressions. Whatever comes of Jon and (f)Aegon, it's unlikely that the population of Westeros will know. That being said, Jon and Aegon come before Dany, as sons of the heir. But I think all of this is a pointless circular discussion. Cersei is so burning KL down. Gotta finish her father's work.

Jon comes before Dany only if legitimate--which I think he is, but being son of Rhaegar is not enough, his parents must have been married. Aegon comes first only if he is alive--which I don't think he is--(f)Aegon is someone else (I am pretty sure). Even if Cersei burns down King's Landing, there is still a kingdom.