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Ashara Dayne had a stillborn baby this is known. According to Selmy a Stark dishonored her at Harrenhal, and got her with child. He also believes this is why she committed suicide. Lyanna would not be abducted for another year. Meaning any baby switching is impossible as her child would have been near two at the end of the war.



That is where I ask a sensitive question. Why would she wait almost two years after been dishonored and losing a child to commit suicide? Was she that close to Arthur that it put the finally piece into play? Did it have something to do with Ned? Did the deaths in the war hit to close to home for her?



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Ashara Dayne had a stillborn baby this is known. According to Selmy a Stark dishonored her at Harrenhal, and got her with child. He also believes this is why she committed suicide. Lyanna would not be abducted for another year. Meaning any baby switching is impossible as her child would have been near two at the end of the war.

That is where I ask a sensitive question. Why would she wait almost two years after been dishonored and losing a child to commit suicide? Was she that close to Arthur that it put the finally piece into play? Did it have something to do with Ned? Did the deaths in the war hit to close to home for her?

1) It is "known" that she had a stillborn baby the same way it is "known" that Rhaegar Targaryen was raping Lyanna Stark. i actually think the youngest Dayne still at Starfall, Allyria, is the child Ashara bore but is being raised as her sister.

2) If a Stark did dishonor her, it was probably Brandon (Benjen is probably too young for her and Ned was...Ned). But there is some evidence that Ashara was involved with Prince Lewyin of Dorne, who we know had a paramour, so it might not be a Stark at all.

3) We we sure Ashara is dead? No body was ever recovered. And everyone, again, "knows" she died but the recollections of people who "know" this weren't at Starfall to see her jump.

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If she helped Arthur and Rhaegar during the year they hide in the Tower of Joy, or in any way, I wonder if she killed herself out of guilt. I mean, pretty much everybody assumes she did it out of depression, but guilt is often a big motivator for taking your life, specially if your actions got your friends and family killed.

GRRM saying that she didn't remain in Starfall during the whole war made me think if she was somehow of a "spy" or she carried messages for the KG and Rhaegar.

Or, what if it was her the one telling Brandon about Rhaegar and Lyanna because she didn't know what was actually happening there? Indirectly, she caused the war and Brandon, Rhaegar, Arthur and many others died because of that.

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To add to what BearQueen said, note that Barristan never says it was a Stark who dishonored her. There's mention of a man who dishonored her, and mention of her turning to [a] Stark. But a "Stark dishonoring Ashara" is actually not what the text says.



Honestly I'm not 100% convinced she's even dead.


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3) We we sure Ashara is dead? No body was ever recovered. And everyone, again, "knows" she died but the recollections of people who "know" this weren't at Starfall to see her jump.

They know where she allegedly jumped from, a Tower called Palestone Sword. If they know what specific detail, it's because someone saw her. Unless, of course, she WANTED THEM to see her. If that happened, how she survived the fall?

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I took the "might she have looked to me instead of Stark?" To mean she looked to a Stark for a lover so to speak and was dishonored when he got her pregnant.



Yet if she was dishonored before she looked to Stark, who could have done it.



And if she was Ser Lewyn Martells paramour getting pregnant would not be a dishonour, unless the child was born with Stark or another persons looks. She could raise a Bastard in Dorne it would treated and raised well being a Dayne and Martell.



Meaning she had to sleep with or be raped by another. Crazy thought maybe she was Ser Lewyn paramour Aery's found out and wanted in. Would Ser Lewyn step aside or protest?


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They know where she allegedly jumped from, a Tower called Palestone Sword. If they know what specific detail, it's because someone saw her. Unless, of course, she WANTED THEM to see her. If that happened, how she survived the fall?

Magic Carpet

lol. I don't know. I'm not sure how much I buy into the "Ashara is alive" camp. There are plenty of reasons why no body was recovered or at least no one bothered to put a mangled bloody corpse out for mourners. But it does seem odd that the people who recount the tale weren't there and are reciting gossip: Cat and Selmy and Edric Dayne. Then it got turned into the stuff of song and legend and now it's "fact"

If she is alive, she may never come back into the story at all and the full events just get told by Howland Reed.

(reason #146732146 why Howland Reed needs to freaking show up already)

I took the "might she have looked to me instead of Stark?" To mean she looked to a Stark for a lover so to speak and was dishonored when he got her pregnant.

Yet if she was dishonored before she looked to Stark, who could have done it.

And if she was Ser Lewyn Martells paramour getting pregnant would not be a dishonour, unless the child was born with Stark or another persons looks. She could raise a Bastard in Dorne it would treated and raised well being a Dayne and Martell.

Meaning she had to sleep with or be raped by another. Crazy thought maybe she was Ser Lewyn paramour Aery's found out and wanted in. Would Ser Lewyn step aside or protest?

Well, Martell was a KG. So, while it's okay for him to have a paramour, I'm not sure how it would factor into his vows if he had a child. They aren't supposed to have kids.

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They know where she allegedly jumped from, a Tower called Palestone Sword. If they know what specific detail, it's because someone saw her. Unless, of course, she WANTED THEM to see her. If that happened, how she survived the fall?

No, its just the Palestone Sword is the Tower by the sea at Starfall. She probably had her quarters there or something.

There is no indication anyone saw her.

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So, she just disappeared and people assumed she killed herself by jumping? Doubt it.

Unless she had someone purposely spread the rumor that she jumped. I don't believe she is dead and I think the reason she faked it has to do with what happened at the TOJ.

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If she helped Arthur and Rhaegar during the year they hide in the Tower of Joy, or in any way, I wonder if she killed herself out of guilt. I mean, pretty much everybody assumes she did it out of depression, but guilt is often a big motivator for taking your life, specially if your actions got your friends and family killed.

GRRM saying that she didn't remain in Starfall during the whole war made me think if she was somehow of a "spy" or she carried messages for the KG and Rhaegar.

Or, what if it was her the one telling Brandon about Rhaegar and Lyanna because she didn't know what was actually happening there? Indirectly, she caused the war and Brandon, Rhaegar, Arthur and many others died because of that.

Or, what if (and this is just baseless speculation on my side)...if Ashara was the one who told Ned about the Tower of Joy and Lyanna's location?

Ashara probably trusted Ned and told him the secret herself, and that would also fit into the "guilt" category, since she indirectly caused her brother's death. This is even more tragic if you believe there was something between those two (and I do)

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I took the "might she have looked to me instead of Stark?" To mean she looked to a Stark for a lover so to speak and was dishonored when he got her pregnant.

Yet if she was dishonored before she looked to Stark, who could have done it.

And if she was Ser Lewyn Martells paramour getting pregnant would not be a dishonour, unless the child was born with Stark or another persons looks. She could raise a Bastard in Dorne it would treated and raised well being a Dayne and Martell.

Meaning she had to sleep with or be raped by another. Crazy thought maybe she was Ser Lewyn paramour Aery's found out and wanted in. Would Ser Lewyn step aside or protest?

Well according to Barristan Ashara danced with 3 men before Brandon asked if Ashara would dance wit Ned; JonCon, Oberyn and Selmy. So if it wasn't Brandon my money would be on the Red Player of Dorne. It could still mean it could be raised as a Dayne and a Martell.

Not sure how Lewyn would of felt about that however, so that might have been the "dishonour".

They know where she allegedly jumped from, a Tower called Palestone Sword. If they know what specific detail, it's because someone saw her. Unless, of course, she WANTED THEM to see her. If that happened, how she survived the fall?

Quick question; do we know if Ned was actually present when Ashara "commited suicide"? Surely he would have testified to witnessing it as it was shown that he was quite fond of her. Maybe the fact that we never heard what he saw there means he had a part to play in whatever Ashara got up to..

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So her Dishonour is getting pregant? In her land a bastard is treated better than anywhere else in the Kingdom. She wasn't her families heir. And from her looks to her family name no one would seem to care about the bastard.



I'm leaning toward something bad happen to her at Harrenhal, rather at the hands of Brandon, Aerys, or unknown something happened IMO.



PS. if Allyria is in fact Brandons daughter. Does she have a claim for Winterfell. Not counting Jon for this one. But all Stark kids are presumed dead or lost. BenJen can not inherit. So why not have her put in a claim.







Quick question; do we know if Ned was actually present when Ashara "commited suicide"? Surely he would have testified to witnessing it as it was shown that he was quite fond of her. Maybe the fact that we never heard what he saw there means he had a part to play in whatever Ashara got up to..






Not sure if Ned was there. I do not believe he ever truly thinks of her. Which if he was there one would think it would have an impact on him.


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Honestly I'm not 100% convinced she's even dead.

This.

Starfall is on an island. Ashara was a lady of one of the most prominent families of the times, meaning she'd probably have guards, septas, handmaidens,or friends, or any combination thereof, with her all the time. For her to disappear would be very hard, I'd judge. For me, logic says it wouldn't be a huge leap to assume that she jumped, or fell to her death considering where she lived and the obvious turmoil surrounding her. The story makes even more sense if you believe its a conspiracy.

franko99, I've believed for quite some time that Ned found out about Lyanna's location via Ashara. It's been said , and mentioned here, that Ashara "was not tied down to Starfall." Not exactly the kind of information you'd want to send by raven, which is easily captured or shot down.

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So her Dishonour is getting pregant? In her land a bastard is treated better than anywhere else in the Kingdom. She wasn't her families heir. And from her looks to her family name no one would seem to care about the bastard.

I'm leaning toward something bad happen to her at Harrenhal, rather at the hands of Brandon, Aerys, or unknown something happened IMO.

PS. if Allyria is in fact Brandons daughter. Does she have a claim for Winterfell. Not counting Jon for this one. But all Stark kids are presumed dead or lost. BenJen can not inherit. So why not have her put in a claim.

If she's a bastard Allyria has no claim

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I know she has no claim just thought it would be funny as hell to see House Dayne ride into Winterfell and claim it. Besides a Bastard in Jon would be heir if Robb's will ever reaches the wall, only to become void when Rickon shows up.

She'd need to be legitimized to claim it. The only reason "bastard" Jon has a claim now is because Robb legitimized him.

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About the claim of Ashara being alive, is that she's very easily recognised. First, her eyes would tell her real identity. Pretty lady with purple eyes? It HAS to be famous beauty Ashara Dayne. And before you say "glamour", who would help her to glamour? How many magical people would help her and why? She can't be Lemore because Jon Connington would recogniser her. She can't be Howland's wife because, although GWW is impenetrable, he would have had to keep her hidden in the basement in case someone ever sees her.

Quick question; do we know if Ned was actually present when Ashara "commited suicide"? Surely he would have testified to witnessing it as it was shown that he was quite fond of her. Maybe the fact that we never heard what he saw there means he had a part to play in whatever Ashara got up to..

I don't think he was there.

Or, what if (and this is just baseless speculation on my side)...if Ashara was the one who told Ned about the Tower of Joy and Lyanna's location?

Ashara probably trusted Ned and told him the secret herself, and that would also fit into the "guilt" category, since she indirectly caused her brother's death. This is even more tragic if you believe there was something between those two (and I do)

I'm not so sure how close their relationship was. A dance means nothing (although many already assumed that every one of her dances partners was a potential lover/father of her child). Besides, during the war, Ned was a rebel, and if her brother was a friend of Rhaegar, who knows what she felt about the Starks.
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About the claim of Ashara being alive, is that she's very easily recognised. First, her eyes would tell her real identity. Pretty lady with purple eyes? It HAS to be famous beauty Ashara Dayne. And before you say "glamour", who would help her to glamour? How many magical people would help her and why? She can't be Lemore because Jon Connington would recogniser her. She can't be Howland's wife because, although GWW is impenetrable, he would have had to keep her hidden in the basement in case someone ever sees her.

Some people think she's Quaithe IIRC. (which I don't buy at all)

But if she's alive, she's probably not in Westeros or nearby Essos. Asshai maybe? Someplace no one from Westeros is currently looking, exploring, ect. (Except Euron who went there but who knows what he saw or didn't see)

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Some people think she's Quaithe IIRC. (which I don't buy at all)

But if she's alive, she's probably not in Westeros or nearby Essos. Asshai maybe? Someplace no one from Westeros is currently looking, exploring, ect. (Except Euron who went there but who knows what he saw or didn't see)

But who and where is she?? I mean, we're about to end the story and major characters and plots are going to have closure. Unlike Benjen, for instance, she's not set up for anything important. No foreshadowing, nothing except that she may or may not be dead.

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