Brute of Bracken Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 We know dragons are extremely valuable in battle, but I was wondering just how valuable. They are not invaluable, surely, for even an adult dragon like Meraxes could be taken down by humans with a scorpion bolt. I know the answer depends on a lot on conditions - the terrain, seige equipment, weather, size of the dragons, etc. So let's say the enemy has about 10,000 troops + a dragon the size of Meraxes and it is an open battle. What non-magical army would you be comfortable with to win this battle? Incidentally, Dany negotiates a trade of 8000 unsullied with one young dragon (which she didn't carry out). Do you think this trade makes some sense for the price of a dragon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loge Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 In an open battle a dragon beats an army of any size. Numbers don't matter. That's how Aegon conquered Westeros. They can take down any castle too, see Harrenhall. They aren't much good against guerrilla warfare, though, which is what the Dornish resorted to. That's how they maintained their independence until they were brought into the realm by marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 In an open battle a dragon beats an army of any size. Numbers don't matter. That's how Aegon conquered Westeros. They can take down any castle too, see Harrenhall. They aren't much good against guerrilla warfare, though, which is what the Dornish resorted to. That's how they maintained their independence until they were brought into the realm by marriage. I don't think dragons are invincible in open battle. Meraxes was brought down by a scorpion bolt - that may happen in an open battle if there are enough scorpions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyannaisalive Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Aegon and his sisters had their three dragons on the field at one time and it decimated a 50,000 man army so they are definitely effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I don't think dragons are invincible in open battle. Meraxes was brought down by a scorpion bolt - that may happen in an open battle if there are enough scorpions Yeah but they all have to be facing the right way and it's easy to get out of said way if you can fly a dragon pretty well, assuming dragons accept commands at all or there's a connection between the rider and the dragon. The idea of 'flying' a dragon is still a bit ridiculous though The battle is lost when one side breaks and runs. Then it's just a matter of picking them off piecemeal while they're charging the other way, or just scattering the army to a point of it not being a functioning unit anymore, so a lot of medieval warfare was just getting the other side to run away essentially hehe A dragon would make just about anymore piss themselves, let alone these huge dragons they were riding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 Yeah but they all have to be facing the right way and it's easy to get out of said way if you can fly a dragon pretty well, assuming dragons accept commands at all or there's a connection between the rider and the dragon. The idea of 'flying' a dragon is still a bit ridiculous though I would guess if there were several hundred scorpions, mangonels and ballistaes along with several thousand archers and crossbowmen all shooting at the same target, at least one of them is bound to hit a weak spot, or kill the rider. Dragons are known to do silly things in battle when they don't have a rider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 IMO, a dragon should have done better against guerrilla warfare in Dorne than, say, North. A dragon would be useful in aerial reconnaissance. If your outriders either see nothing or do not return, then a dragonrider flying at 1000 feet and several times the speed of a horse would see a lot, and arrows would be useless, so it is an assignment which even a 7 year old girl can safely accomplish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 Aegon and his sisters had their three dragons on the field at one time and it decimated a 50,000 man army so they are definitely effective. It is likely that they haven't fought dragons before, and were hence ill prepared. Given the right preparations, the outcome might have been different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 It all depends on how big it is. A big dragon is very valuable while a lesser one is less so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 It all depends on how big it is. A big dragon is very valuable while a lesser one is less so. Of course. The question is how valuable exactly. What about an adult dragon like Meraxes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talking Hodor Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 We know dragons are extremely valuable in battle, but I was wondering just how valuable. They are not invaluable, surely, for even an adult dragon like Meraxes could be taken down by humans with a scorpion bolt. I know the answer depends on a lot on conditions - the terrain, seige equipment, weather, size of the dragons, etc. So let's say the enemy has about 10,000 troops + a dragon the size of Meraxes and it is an open battle. What non-magical army would you be comfortable with to win this battle? Incidentally, Dany negotiates a trade of 8000 unsullied with one young dragon (which she didn't carry out). Do you think this trade makes some sense for the price of a dragon? One dragon is worth far more than 8,000 Unsullied. Barristan and Jorah, who never agree on anything, were in full agreement on this when she offered the trade. A dragon's like a flying, napalm-spitting tank and catapult battery all rolled into one, with the mobility of a cavalry troop of flying horses. I'd humbly submit that there's no Westerosi army (especially now) that could stand against a full-sized, fully trained dragon with rider. They could fly behind the formations, burn the catapults and scorpions to the ground before they could reacquire the highly mobile target behind them, and then start strafing the cavalry and infantry lines with fire. The only way an army could withstand that is if they had fortified positons in mountain passes, kinda like Dorne had, and resorted to guerilla tactics against the more earthbound forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyannaisalive Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 It is likely that they haven't fought dragons before, and were hence ill prepared. Given the right preparations, the outcome might have been different. Who living today has fought a dragon though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 One dragon is worth far more than 8,000 Unsullied. Barristan and Jorah, who never agree on anything, were in full agreement on this when she offered the trade. A dragon's like a flying, napalm-spitting tank and catapult battery all rolled into one, with the mobility of a cavalry troop of flying horses. I'd humbly submit that there's no Westerosi army (especially now) that could stand against a full-sized, fully trained dragon with rider. They could fly behind the formations, burn the catapults and scorpions to the ground before they could reacquire the highly mobile target behind them, and then start strafing the cavalry and infantry lines with fire. The only way an army could withstand that is if they had fortified positons in mountain passes, kinda like Dorne had, and resorted to guerilla tactics against the more earthbound forces. I don't know. Given enough scorpion bolts one of them is likely ti hit the dragon in the eye or kill the rider. ETA: 8000 unsullied is too low a price, but what would make a good price for a baby dragon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 Who living today has fought a dragon though? No one, but at least they can read about them, be aware of their strengths and weaknesses and be prepared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Of course. The question is how valuable exactly. What about an adult dragon like Meraxes? Devastating. We've seen in the dance that the presence of a grown dragon is enough to turn almost any battle, so essentially its close to a "I win" button. Unless the other side can field a dragon as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 Devastating. We've seen in the dance that the presence of a grown dragon is enough to turn almost any battle, so essentially its close to a "I win" button. Unless the other side can field a dragon as well. And yet the said adult dragon was killed by a scorpion bolt. I wouldn't be too sure that grown dragons are invincible in open battle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 High, but not insurmountable. I would guess if there were several hundred scorpions, mangonels and ballistaes along with several thousand archers and crossbowmen all shooting at the same target, at least one of them is bound to hit a weak spot, or kill the rider. Dragons are known to do silly things in battle when they don't have a rider.Archers and crossbowmen work, siege weapons don't. They take far too much time to turn. You'd have to set them up preemptively and wait for the dragon to cross their line of fire. And there's a lot of space in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 High, but not insurmountable. Archers and crossbowmen work, siege weapons don't. They take far too much time to turn. You'd have to set them up preemptively and wait for the dragon to cross their line of fire. And there's a lot of space in the air. I included scorpions as they did indeed kill an adult dragon. They might take time to turn, which means they will fire slower and less controlled shots, but they have longer range and are more deadly. If you have enough of them, it should compensate for the slower speed and accuracy. Mangonels which spray stones should also be particularly useful to hit the rider, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Civility Reigns Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 If a scorpion bolt is indeed enough to kill a dragon, then the key is likely to entice the dragon and/or its rider to fly directly towards a scorpion battery, in as straight a line as possible. The dragon would then present a nearly unmoving target for the scorpion operators to fire at, with the head, neck and wings presenting the largest surface area. If the dragon and its rider instead flies erratically or uses indirect approaches to strafe ground troops, then you'd better hope your men are good shots. It's safe to assume that any sufficiently intelligent dragon or rider would know not to fly directly at whoever is shooting at it, and instead attack from above, behind, or avoid the attacker entirely. Plus, since dragons have the benefit of being able to turn their heads as they fly, directing their fire in one direction while moving in another, one would have to hope the dragon and its rider was feeling suicidal that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 If the dragon and its rider instead flies erratically or uses indirect approaches to strafe ground troops, then you'd better hope your men are good shots. Or are lots and lots of average shots. You can also hit a target through dumb luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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