Opinions and Skepticism About R+L=J and The Fandom's Interpretation Supposed Romance

[igotthatsummerhallsadness]

[[i just had to edit some original parts in the post here because it seemed as though I was too much of a pessimist about their romance. I'm not completely sure of my own theory either, since I just and a "what–if" moment and there still are a few evidence to believe in their 'love' but I stand to focus on the skepticism on this part more. Thank you for replying.]]

I think we can all agree that the R+L=J theory is a fairly––more, insanely––popular theory of the fans for the past ten or so years. Obviously, if you have been a follower of the series, both books and TV show, you must be aware of what transpired in Harrenhal until Robert’s Rebellion.

But for this forum, I’ll first be explaining my skepticism about their supposed romance and then get on further with some additions to the theory that I haven’t quite heard of yet before. I’m not sure if this is the first time someone pointed this out, but I’ll do it anyway.

I will put some evidence for their supposed romance in the end since I have a fifty–fifty percent belief in their 'love' and the other on skepticism. Note that in this theory/post, I will only mention skepticism, I still partly believe something was actually happening to them in a romantic way.

++ This is just my skepticism. I don't mind them if GRRM decides to add love to their story. I just wanted to point out some details since so many R+L=J fans seem to over romanticize their situation.

Many believe Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna, which I somewhat doubt for this post. It has been stated plenty of times before in the books that Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other. We must all remember that all those who had said so are only guessing. The narrators are unreliable and we had never had a real and trustworthy POV character who truly knew what transpired between the two.

For the newbies, as far as the popular theory goes, it all started with the Tourney of Harrenhal when Lyanna had saved Howland Reed from three squires who were bullying him. For payback, Lyanna became the tourney’s mystery knight (The Knight of the Laughing Tree) where she unhorsed the three bullying squires. Later, Rhaegar supposedly found out that Lyanna was the knight after his father, Mad King Aerys, told him to find and bring the mystery knight to him to kill (or burn). Apparently, Rhaegar ‘fell in love’ with Lyanna at that point and rewarded her with the crown of roses. This is when she was crowned the Queen of Love and Beauty, passing over Rhaegar’s own wife, Elia. Not too long after that, Rhaegar ‘kidnapped’ Lyanna. This is what started the Rebellion.

At this point, many speculate is when Lyanna gets pregnant with Jon. A baby Rhaegar was hoping to be Visenya, the final head needed for his three dragons. Now, I agree 99.9% with the theory that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and is the PtWP/AA. Note that before Lyanna died, she had made Ned promise something to her, hence the title ‘Prince that was Promised’. Many are still confused about the PtwP prophecy and if it’s the same as the Azor Ahai prophecy. GRRM has once said something regarding this.

People start to think that Rhaegar must have loved Lyanna to take her away. I think differently. Rhaegar Targaryen obviously knew his actions would cause a national collapse of some sort and from the sources that we have who knew him well before explicitly say that he was a bookish, smart, and some even say Baelor the Blessed come–again. He knew Lyanna was from a strong and powerful house and will soon be married into another strong and powerful house, so why would a constantly described smart, brilliant, Baelor the Blessed come–again take an engaged fifteen year–old under those circumstances? My guesses are that there must have been something that made him even think about ‘kidnapping’ Lyanna Stark, something that drove him to do it even though he knew something was gonna go wrong with him taking her.

That thing that drove him to take Lyanna must have been something he couldn’t deny. Something like regarding the three heads of the dragon. I’ll get to this soon.

At this point, many R+L=J romance enthusiasts would probably like to point out some proof of Rhaegar and Lyanna ever loving each other. Let’s recall Ser Barristan’s words to Daenerys:

“Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna. And thousands died for it.”

Keep in mind, GRRM has stated that the narrators are ‘unreliable’ and that Ser Barristan is only giving out his opinions of Rhaegar. And to think of it, no one in the Seven Kingdoms other than Rhaegar’s companions truly knew what Rhaegar nor Lyanna felt about each other. Barristan was not a part of Rhaegar’s crew to the Tower of Joy. Many in the Seven Kingdoms believed Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Others thought and still do think highly of him. Why would such a noble man, the Crowned Prince of Westeros, kidnap a betrothed fifteen year–old?

Also, another passage from the books tell of Lyanna ‘sniffling’ during Rhaegar’s performance at the Tourney where he played his famous harp in front of everyone. It’s obvious from Cersei’s point of view, where she recalled crying about Rhaegar’s songs, that Rhaegar was talented with the harp. I recall it was mentioned once that Rhaegar’s songs were sad and soulful, definitely causing a few girls to ‘weep about it’. I believe Lyanna was no exception. Maybe she remembered her mother’s death through his song? (Or maybe she had a total diva moment, I dunno.)

I believe months after Aegon’s birth, Rhaegar now took Lyanna. I highly doubt Lyanna was swooning over the prince and immediately accepted Rhaegar’s request to take her to Dorne. As it was said plenty of times, she was known to be a wild child and had different point of views and opinions about love (I recall her conversation with Ned about Robert). Why would she, out of all the girls in the world, fall in love with a married Crowned Prince who caused a scandal by giving her a crown of roses in a tourney? She didn’t even like Robert who was known to whore around. She hated his scandalous ways. Why would she even think of liking the married prince? Lyanna obviously shows disdain in Robert’s scandalous acts, why should she involve herself in one with Rhaegar?

But what caused her to join Rhaegar? Was it maybe a promise or a bribe from him that she won’t have to marry Robert? A lot of people think Rhaegar married Lyanna, which could also be a reason so she didn’t have to marry Robert. The Targaryens were known to be bigamists, so maybe Lyanna was told that she won’t be shunned for marrying an already–married man because of Rhaegar’s traditions. But that must have been a shit ton of convincing for her to go with him if he didn’t already kidnap her. To think of it really, Lyanna was fifteen years old. She was still a child, so she probably didn’t think this through enough. Also, I have a fifty–fifty percent belief they did get married since Rhaegar would have not wanted his future daughter Visenya to be a bastard.

Now, this is the part where I’d like to add some additional speculation to the R+L=J theory.

I personally think Rhaegar, growing up, was too smart for his own good. He knew things. Was it possible that he found out about the Lord of Light, R’hllor? If you really think about it, he had already found about the prophecy of the prince that was promised from his books, he must have heard of the red religion if he spent so much time studying about such prophecies and dragons. Melisandre hailed from Asshai, land of magic, dragons, and prophecies. Rhaegar believed in the prophecy of waking the dragons from stone. Rhaegar, inevitably, was to find out about Asshai and their magic. Which, he did.

And I think this is where shit went down.

Rhaegar, after finding out about R’hllor pulled off a Melisandre and started to see things through the flames. He ‘saw’ Lyanna in the flames. I think he would have told Elia about it since in Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying, Rhaegar was blatantly stating that since Elia cannot bear anymore children, he had to find another girl to be the mother of his Visenya––and Elia understood that. At the Tourney of Harrenhal, he saw Lyanna and recognized her as the girl in the flames. At this point, he started to have plans to marry Lyanna just like Aegon the Conqueror married his two sisters, committing to bigamy. Then, Rhaegar finds out she’s betrothed and instead, just gives her the crown of roses for acknowledgement. Obviously, Lyanna and the Starks knew nothing of this plans and everyone probably thought he was enraptured by her, but truly, he only wanted the prophecy to come true because he thought of what the flames showed to him and he obviously believed that Lyanna was needed to mother his unborn daughter. This is to what led him to take Lyanna. Remember that he was desperate for the third head and he could not deny the flames as he is a follower of R’hllor and the prophecy, so he convinced the Stark to run away with him and caused Robert’s Rebellion. He knew he needed to complete the three heads of the dragon. I don’t believe he wanted to take Lyanna at all, but for the sake of being the PtwP and what he must have seen in the flames, he believed he had no choice but to fulfill the prophecy and sire a daughter from Lyanna. He had only convinced Lyanna to go with him because of his fulfillment to the prophecy. I don’t quite remember how long the Tourney of Harrenhal was but I don’t think it was enough time for Lyanna or Rhaegar to be head over heels about each other. Rhaegar saw the chance in the fire. He took that chance and took Lyanna to fulfill his duty as the prince that was promised, as he believed he was. (but totally wasn’t lulz)

Also, many would like to debate and argue about Rhaegar as a father. I’ve heard people say that he didn’t care about Elia and his children which I would like to point out isn’t true. During one dream scene with Jaime, Rhaegar appeared to him and scolding him for not protecting his wife and children. Obviously, Jaime was either having a prophetic dream just like the rest of the characters in the series or his conscience was just shitting on him.

Back to Rhaegar, he obviously knew the kingdom would not respond well to their prince and soon–to–be–king claiming an already–betrothed fifteen year–old as second wife. He knew he could not just bring Lyanna to court with him and explain the Azor Ahai/PtwP prophecy. His people will think of him mad, like his father, for believing in a prophecy and committing blasphemy to the Seven Gods by following a foreign religion. Lords from noble houses everywhere in the continent would question him and his mad belief in R’hllor. As proven by Stannis, the Westerosi do not react well to the red god. This must have led Rhaegar to believe that just by taking Lyanna without permission must have been a better and safer, although dangerous and risky, move for the sake of the kingdom than to announce to the entire continent that he will father the three heads of the dragon, an act that will inevitably cause hundreds of noblemen and their houses to retaliate, thinking Rhaegar is a blasphemous madman, and will probably plot to overthrow him and pass him over as king. And if not, will surely still cause another rebellion probably by Robert again due to the fact that the girl he called out to the world who will bear him his Visenya is his own betrothed. So, Rhaegar took Lyanna with him, entrusting only his few friends from the Kingsguard, his wife, and possibly Varys, about the prophecy of the three heads of the dragons which will lead inevitably to his death and his family’s downfall.

I’m not sure if anybody else pointed this out but other than that, send out your thoughts, please.

+ As for the name Rhaegar whispered in the Trident and the naming of Tower of Joy, there are still some pure evident for their romance, proving it to may be real or not.

++ This is just my skepticism. I don't mind them if they really did love each other or if GRRM decides to add that. I just wanted to point out some details since so many R+L=J fans seem to over romanticize their situation.

[Arya Targaryen]

Dany sees in one of her visions Rhaegar's death, as he died saying the name of the woman he loved. So there was a woman he loved, and I think GRRM confirmed somewhere that the name was "Lyanna". Therefore he truly loved her.

There is no textual evidence whatsoever that Rhaegar was involved with the Red God.

Rhaegar knew of his duty to the throne and I don’t think he would give it all up just for a girl he practically knew for a few days or weeks.

Actually, they knew each other for more than a year at that time. When they met (the Tournament at Harrenhal) Elia has just recovered from giving birth to Rhaenys. They needed at least (more, actually) about a year to get pregnant again and give birth to Aegon.

When the maesters told Rhaegar that Elia would probably die of the next pregnancy, he decided to take another wife, that's pretty straightforward. And at that point he already was is love with Lyanna, so it is understandable why he wanted her, and not someone else. But Aerys would have never consented to this, that's why they kept it in slence, until Rhaegar manages to put him aside and take the throne. Robert was another problem.

I won't reflect on what Lyanna felt at the time, however, Rhaegar must have been very convincing. And I doubt Rhaegar would have kidnapped her, so she must have been willing.

However, you seem to question whether Rhaegar was in love. He definitely was.

[LordStoneheart]

There's a pinned thread for things like this.

But as far as "romance" goes, it's not about romance as popularly known. It's about romanticism of the past, Rhaegar being the seemingly perfect prince yet dying anyway. Same with Lyanna (wild, willful princess trope). There will definitely be more layers to it in the future but I think very few people think of it as a harlequin-esque romance. In my experience, people hate Rhaegar and Lyanna and hate whatever their relationship entailed.

Also, Rhaegar probably wasn't "too smart for his good" if he found out about the Lord of Light. It makes him more crazy than intelligent.

[Lord Defiance]

While I enjoy reading theories, good or bad, I didn't see any points on WHY they wouldn't be in love. I can see things about why it wouldn't be right or why maybe it shouldn't work, but I don't see much evidence taken from the books or from excerpts.

I only read about 3/4 however. I will look more later when I get a break from work.

[stateofdissipation]

Rhaeny had a cat she named Balerion. She hid under the bed when the assassins came for in 283AC. Elia was bedridden for half a year after Rhaeny's birth. (if Elia was still recovering from her birth in 281 Rhaeny would be no more than 2 and 1/2 when she was killed.)

The Harrenhal Tournament 281AC.

Aegon. was born in 282AC. After his birth the maesters declared she could have no more children.

Lyanna was kidnapped in 282AC.

Robert's Rebellion was from 282AC to 283

If R+L=J; Lyanna gave birth at the end of the rebellion..

Aegon born 1 January 282AC--J born 31 december 283 gives Rhaegar 15 months to meet fall in love with and impregnate Lyanna. (however it makes Aegon 1 year 11 months old at his death--and he is described as an infant-Less than 1,) Rhaegar had 4 months maximum to fall in love with Lyanna.

This does not leave too much time for dilly dallying.

[Pigeon Pie]

I don't see why it completely couldn't be a love story. Yes, I'm sure there are many more layers to it than we know of, but why couldn't they have loved each other? What makes it such a huge impossibility? If there's nothing to prove/deny this, there's also nothing to prove/deny that.

[Elkrider]

I've been toying with the idea that Lyanna had a green dream about the future that led her to run away with Rhaegar.

[Le Cygne]

Because love makes it a better story. That's some boring stuff otherwise.

Also A Song of Ice and Fire. Queen of Love and Beauty. The Tower of Joy. The Knight of the Laughing Tree. Petals from blue roses in her hands as she died. Her name on his lips as he died.

GRRM isn't that much of a cynic, to write a story with all of that, and have it not be about love.

(typo, sorry)

[franko99]

There's a pinned thread for things like this.

But as far as "romance" goes, it's not about romance as popularly known. It's about romanticism of the past, Rhaegar being the seemingly perfect prince yet dying anyway. Same with Lyanna (wild, willful princess trope). There will definitely be more layers to it in the future but I think very few people think of it as a harlequin-esque romance. In my experience, people hate Rhaegar and Lyanna and hate whatever their relationship entailed.

Also, Rhaegar probably wasn't "too smart for his good" if he found out about the Lord of Light. It makes him more crazy than intelligent.

Then we may have been seen a different side of the fandom, "most" of the fandom since to love Rhaegar and Lyanna, and like to excuse/ignore all of their action because "they're so cute" and "you can't blame them if they love eachother".

[LordStoneheart]

Then we may have been seen a different side of the fandom, "most" of the fandom since to love Rhaegar and Lyanna, and like to excuse/ignore all of their action because "they're so cute" and "you can't blame them if they love eachother".

Look around a few R/L threads (not the pinned one.) They have a big hatedom, probably bigger than their lovedom.

[franko99]

Look around a few R/L threads (not the pinned one.) They have a big hatedom, probably bigger than their lovedom.

I'm aware of their existance, but they're not that numerous, just very vocal. R+L otoh is probably the most popular "ship" of the fandom, I'm not just talking about this forum.

Anyways, back on topic. I'm not a big fan of that "tragic love story", but I think it is the most likely scenario.

[Gendry_Goldeneyes]

Well considering the theme of "Marrying for Love" in the story it really wouldn't surprise me if they did love each other.

He married Elia for political reasons as it was his duty, but wanted too/or did marry Lyanna for love. King Egg was all for that shit if you remember as he allowed Duncan the Small to marry for love....

but we all know how marrying for love turns out.....

[LordStoneheart]

I'm aware of their existance, but they're not that numerous, just very vocal. R+L otoh is probably the most popular "ship" of the fandom, I'm not just talking about this forum.

Anyways, back on topic. I'm not a big fan of that "tragic love story", but I think it is the most likely scenario.

Well only this forum matters. ;)

But back on topic, I believe tragic love story is only one facet of the big theme of romanticizing the past. Not just with them but many others too.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

There is also the fact thet Lyanna was holding dead rose petals. Maybe the rose petals from the crown Rhaegar gave her as the QOLAB?

[Ygrain]

Because love makes it a better story. That's some boring stuff otherwise.

Also A Song of Ice and Fire. Queen of Love and Beauty. The Tower of Joy. The Knight of the Laughing Tree. Petals from blue roses in her hands as she died. Her name on her lips as he died.

GRRM isn't that much of a cynic, to write a story with all of that, and have it not be about love.

Didn't GRRM say that he was fond of romance, or something like that?

Anyway: there is a huge flaw in the OP reasoning, that Lyanna's kidnapping was what caused the Rebellion and that Rhaegar should have foreseen it. The Rebellion in fact started only when Jon Arryn raised his banners to oppose Aerys' order to deliver him the heads of Ned and Robert. Until then, no banner-raising over the abduction (if it was one). Could Rhaegar have foreseen problems due to his disappearance with Lyanna? Certainly. A full-scale civil war? About as much as Robb could have foreseen the Red Wedding. In both cases, the backlash was totally out of proportion to the offence.

[Unbent_Unbroken]

Rhaegar probably knew he'd have to smooth things over with the Starks and the Martells, and Robert Baratheon by himself he probably didn't see as a threat, but who could anticipate Aerys? There's definitely more to R+L than we know so far, but I have to think love played a part.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

I do believe they really did love each other. They were young and in love. Rhaegar knew Lyanna was promised to Robert.

Aerys added fuel to the fire when he killed Ned's brother and his father.

[ScottishFool]

The events surrounding Lyanna's supposed abduction make me wonder. Why didn't Lyanna or Rhaegar at least leave some kind of message? Or why didn't they come out with the truth when the rebellion was starting. And even why everyone was so convinced that Lyanna was kidnapped?

That leads me to think that something was going on that we don't know. Perhaps Lyanna's family did know, and didn't approve. The whole "come out and die" could have been more about Rhaegar shaming the Starks and wanting revenge.

[Ygrain]

The events surrounding Lyanna's supposed abduction make me wonder. Why didn't Lyanna or Rhaegar at least leave some kind of message? Or why didn't they come out with the truth when the rebellion was starting. And even why everyone was so convinced that Lyanna was kidnapped?

That leads me to think that something was going on that we don't know. Perhaps Lyanna's family did know, and didn't approve. The whole "come out and die" could have been more about Rhaegar shaming the Starks and wanting revenge.

Thing is... we don't know if they left a message or not, all we know is a notable lack of response from Rickard.

A coming out as the Rebellion was starting wouldn't have changed a thing - the moment Brandon committed treason by threatening Rhaegar and Jon Arryn rebelled because of Aerys' order to deliver the heads of Ned and Robert, this was no longer about Lyanna.

I wholeheartedly agree with the last sentence, Brandon does sound a lot like a brother enraged that someone did to his sister what he had done to Barbrey.

[PrettyPig]

If you really think about it, he had already found about the prophecy of the prince that was promised from his books, he must have heard of the red religion if he spent so much time studying about such prophecies and dragons. Melisandre hailed from Asshai, land of magic, dragons, and prophecies. Rhaegar believed in the prophecy of waking the dragons from stone. Rhaegar, inevitably, was to find out about Asshai and their magic. Which, he did.

And I think this is where shit went down.

Agree that this is indeed why and where shit went down, but maybe not in the way you lay out. Shadowbinding, blood magic, waking dragons from stone? Royal blood, blood of the First Men, two kings to wake a dragon? Hmmmmm......

Just for fun, everybody lay out these things side by side and do a really hard comparision of the details:

1) All mentions/visions of Lyanna;

2) All mentions/recollections of ToJ;

3) Dany's last chapter in AGOT and the ceremony of MMD.