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Reason for Illyrio to give Dany dragon eggs


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#1 Attitude

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:11 AM

I can't stop thinking about Illyrio giving dany the dragon eggs. I've been reading on this forum quite a lot, and speculations about Aegon VI being fake made the question pop up: If Illyrio (and Varys) had Aegon to get the throne, why give Dany valuable dragon eggs? 

 

It even turned out worse for him since they turned out to be real and Dany got dragons from them, but I don't think he knew that would happen. But in both cases, it felt like a waiste of a three very rare items for no good reason.

 

Edit: It is told that Illyrio helped Viserys and Dany so he could gain more weatlh, but I think those eggs were way to valuable. How could he expect to see that amount wealth back?


Edited by Attitude, 21 July 2014 - 06:14 AM.


#2 Hrafntýr

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:17 AM

There's considerable discussion of the point here.


Edited by Hrafntýr, 21 July 2014 - 06:19 AM.


#3 HelenaAndTheMachine

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:28 AM

In the Daenerys re-read, Mladen recently made an interesting comparison between the gifts given to Dany for her wedding, and those given as parting gifts to Young Griff.
Dany;
When she is wed to Khal Drogo, she is given fossilised dragon eggs. At this point, they are thought of as nothing more than relics of a bygone age, and a reminder of Dany's Targaryen bloodlines. Nobody expects these to hatch of course, yet they are a display of Illyrio's extreme wealth, and we know that he is profiting immensely from selling Daenerys to Khal Drogo.
Conpare this to his parting gift to Young Griff, and his emotional response when he gives them over. Candied ginger is one gift specifically mentioned, and when he realises he will miss the wedding he sounds sad. The gift of candied ginger is a much more peraonal one, that brings to mind a much closer more personal.relationship than the one between Illyrio and Dany-Viserys. By contrast, the dragon eggs are a cold, emotionless gift to show off wealth.

ETA: http://asoiaf.wester...os-adwd/page-18
Explained much better than I have on this page, towards the bottom in the analysis of Tyrion III

Edited by HelenaAndTheMachine, 21 July 2014 - 06:33 AM.


#4 Meemaw

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:59 AM

I think he gave these valuable gifts as part of guest rights. He hosted both both orphan Targs and had the involved in plots that will get them killed. Its like Manderly giving the Freys those horses when they left.  



#5 Attitude

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:06 AM

There's considerable discussion of the point here.

Why did I totally mis that post? Thanks.



#6 Hrafntýr

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:32 AM

Why did I totally mis that post? Thanks.

Welcome!  And welcome to the boards, too!



#7 Lady Blizzardborn

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:37 AM

I think he gave these valuable gifts as part of guest rights. He hosted both both orphan Targs and had the involved in plots that will get them killed. Its like Manderly giving the Freys those horses when they left.  

Interesting take.  Did he give Viserys anything?  I don't recall any gifts for the beggar king.

 

Manderly seems to have actually participated in/ordered the demise of those Freys though.  Illyrio would only be involved in Daenerys' death in an oblique, round-about way.  It's possible that he was still worried about the guest right issue though.



#8 Meemaw

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:48 AM

Viserys got a sword and the clothes on his back. Plus he tried to get him to stay in Pentos. With Dany I think he actually liked her and felt a little guilty for using her. That is why her gifts was more expensive. Plus it wouldn't  hurt to show a little money influence in front of everybody. 



#9 RedShirt47

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:40 AM

I think there is Symbolism to the gift of the stone eggs.
Fossilised eggs from long dead dragons representing the dead House of Targaryen.
Dragons hatching have represented Targaryens coming to power before in dreams / visions, yet stone eggs can never hatch.

Illyrio is giving Dany a gift that says "You're from a dead House and you'll never gain any power."
But on the surface it's a very expensive gift, worthy of any princess. So taken at face value it seems to be an excellent gift but deeper down it's laced with meaning.
 



#10 Lord Damian

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:42 AM

Illyrio gave Dany to Drogo along with 3 known to be exotic but non-functioning eggs which were valuable as suveneirs as a bribe for not sacking Pentos, therefore cutting the money supply to the then unknown Young Griff/Aegon Vi. Viserys and Dany were not expected to live but they knew Viserys would go with his sister because he thought he was getting an army. Illyrio played Dany and Viserys to what they hoped would be their deaths, thereby eliminating/killing two birds with one stone. Sparing Pentos from sacking by Dothraki and killing off the legit heirs to the Iron Throne through the Targaryen line. Aegon is a Blackfyre.  The Eggs were a bribe/gift. No one knew what happened later would do so. When Dany got pregnant,  that was a shock to Illyro and Varys and they certainly wanted that baby and Dany dead then, just as much as Robert did. Varys never called back the death order when ordered to. They needed her dead until she accumulated armies and then they desired her to marry Aegon only after she could be of value and add to Aegon's legitimacy. They cannot have her as a rival.


Edited by Lord Damian, 21 July 2014 - 10:43 AM.


#11 Suzanna Stormborn

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 11:10 AM

There was no reasoning behind it, just a pretty wedding gift and that is all.  She is a member of House Targaryen.  So beautiful fossilized eggs are the perfect gift, end of story.  Illyrio made a lot of money brokering the marriage, so he wanted to show his wealth and make Dany happy for a bit.  He had no idea they would hatch. He does not have the gift of foresight, Dragons were extinct.



#12 Lady Blizzardborn

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:35 PM

Illyrio gave Dany to Drogo along with 3 known to be exotic but non-functioning eggs which were valuable as suveneirs as a bribe for not sacking Pentos, therefore cutting the money supply to the then unknown Young Griff/Aegon Vi. Viserys and Dany were not expected to live but they knew Viserys would go with his sister because he thought he was getting an army. Illyrio played Dany and Viserys to what they hoped would be their deaths, thereby eliminating/killing two birds with one stone. Sparing Pentos from sacking by Dothraki and killing off the legit heirs to the Iron Throne through the Targaryen line. Aegon is a Blackfyre.  The Eggs were a bribe/gift. No one knew what happened later would do so. When Dany got pregnant,  that was a shock to Illyro and Varys and they certainly wanted that baby and Dany dead then, just as much as Robert did. Varys never called back the death order when ordered to. They needed her dead until she accumulated armies and then they desired her to marry Aegon only after she could be of value and add to Aegon's legitimacy. They cannot have her as a rival.

Actually from what we have in the text it was part of the plan that Dany (with or without Viserys) and the Dothraki hoard would meet up with Aegon.  It's also been suggested that the army of Dothraki were to go do some sacking in advance so that Aegon could show up with the GC and play savior of Westeros.  Both of those options make sense.  V&I's conversation in the Red Keep in AGoT strongly suggests that they did intend for Dany to be in the mix.

 

Varys and Illyrio did not want Dany or her child dead.  It was Varys who sent word to Jorah warning him of the assassins and ordering him to protect Dany from them.  You do not simply call back a death order in a medieval society.  It takes time to communicate that the king has changed his mind. Given that the assassination attempts did stop though, it's likely that the contract was cancelled at some point, and Varys would have been the one to do it.



#13 Attitude

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:40 AM

Illyrio gave Dany to Drogo along with 3 known to be exotic but non-functioning eggs which were valuable as suveneirs as a bribe for not sacking Pentos, therefore cutting the money supply to the then unknown Young Griff/Aegon Vi. Viserys and Dany were not expected to live but they knew Viserys would go with his sister because he thought he was getting an army. Illyrio played Dany and Viserys to what they hoped would be their deaths, thereby eliminating/killing two birds with one stone. Sparing Pentos from sacking by Dothraki and killing off the legit heirs to the Iron Throne through the Targaryen line. Aegon is a Blackfyre.  The Eggs were a bribe/gift. No one knew what happened later would do so. When Dany got pregnant,  that was a shock to Illyro and Varys and they certainly wanted that baby and Dany dead then, just as much as Robert did. Varys never called back the death order when ordered to. They needed her dead until she accumulated armies and then they desired her to marry Aegon only after she could be of value and add to Aegon's legitimacy. They cannot have her as a rival.

 

I don't feel like this makes any sense to me at all. Why would they hide Viserys and Dany for 14 years, just to give them to a Khal and let them get killed? 

 

If I have a look at the topic that hrafntýr showed us, it makes a lot more sense. Viserys and/or Dany should be sent to westeros to sack the place with the Dothraki. After that Aegon VI would come back and somehow (playing the good guy or joining the Dothraki) conquer westeros. I am not entirely convinced this was the exact plan, but it makes sense. Keeping two Targaryen alive and hidden for 14 years and then get them killed asap. No I won't buy that.

 

@Lady Lizzardborn; that makes a lot more sense to me. If that was their plan, things got screwed up big time. Viserys (back up MALE heir) got killed. Khal Drogo died, therefor they lost the support of the Dothraki. Dany got her dragons, so instead of an ally, she can easily become selfish and claim westeros for herself instead of giving it to (f) Aegon VI.



#14 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:45 AM

There was no reasoning behind it, just a pretty wedding gift and that is all.  She is a member of House Targaryen.  So beautiful fossilized eggs are the perfect gift, end of story.  Illyrio made a lot of money brokering the marriage, so he wanted to show his wealth and make Dany happy for a bit.  He had no idea they would hatch. He does not have the gift of foresight, Dragons were extinct.

 

:agree:

 

As much, he needed Drogo to think she was a valuable wife, a Princess. Dragon eggs are a symbol of House Targaryen, from which she was the last and only princess, as far as they knew.



#15 Lord Damian

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:13 AM

 

I don't feel like this makes any sense to me at all. Why would they hide Viserys and Dany for 14 years, just to give them to a Khal and let them get killed? 

 

If I have a look at the topic that hrafntýr showed us, it makes a lot more sense. Viserys and/or Dany should be sent to westeros to sack the place with the Dothraki. After that Aegon VI would come back and somehow (playing the good guy or joining the Dothraki) conquer westeros. I am not entirely convinced this was the exact plan, but it makes sense. Keeping two Targaryen alive and hidden for 14 years and then get them killed asap. No I won't buy that.

 

@Lady Lizzardborn; that makes a lot more sense to me. If that was their plan, things got screwed up big time. Viserys (back up MALE heir) got killed. Khal Drogo died, therefor they lost the support of the Dothraki. Dany got her dragons, so instead of an ally, she can easily become selfish and claim westeros for herself instead of giving it to (f) Aegon VI.

Dany and Viserys were not hidden anywhere, Westeros and Robert knew about them all the time. Viserys was the beggar King, a joke. No one would rise for him. What really got their attention was Dany marrying Drogo. That coincided with the sudden death of Jon Arryn. I think Stannis and Jon Arynn discovering the twincest-bastardy and its  reveal to the King was supposed result in Robert "severing" a relationship with Cersie for  Maregary (Renly and Loras's plans) thus causing a war because Tywin was to pridefull and would have lost his life's plans to have his decendents on the iron Throne. Littlefinger screwed things up for Varys and illyrio by having Lysa kill her hubby, "convenient timing" right before Jon could Tell Robert (at the time, it is stated that Cersie and all 3 kids were headed to Casterly Rock for a "visit" accompanied by Ser Jaime no less). Ned's discovery of the truth along with a little bit of Baelish deception pitted the Lannisters against the Starks. Littlefinger seems to have messed with Varys and Illyrio's Westeros plans for a while until he took refuge in the Vale it seems. When Ned confronted Cersei, it was a stunner to Varys. Ned spurred into action Cersie who had Lancel give Robert the dreamwine that enabled him to get killed by the boar thus, saving her and her kids. This ended the chance of Robert joining forces with the Tyrells with a marriage for Margeary. It did open the door to a marriage with Renly and Margeary which would have given Varys and Illryo the war in Westeros they wanted with The Reach and Stormlands vs The Westerlands and the Crownlands. Robb and Stannis were two factors that they could not overcome, they had to simply let it play out.

 

This story has been evolving for some time to get to the point we are at now. The Reach and the Westerlands were always the two potential main obstacles due to their wealth and manpower and food supply to a successful invasion and conquest by Aegon. Ironically, it was the original Conqueror who defeated both such parties that really sealed the deal 300 years ago. With a little Iron Born help by doing what they do, The Reach will bleed from them and the assasinations and trials of Kings Landing should lead to bleeding from the Westerlands and weaken them enough to make it easier for Aegon to win and sit the Iron Throne. Throw in a few Reach defections, Dorne joining for "Ellia's son" and a reach out and a alliance and or a "marriage pact" with the Vale and it is as good as done and without Dany no less.


Edited by Lord Damian, 22 July 2014 - 09:17 AM.


#16 OrangeStallion

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:19 AM

Judging from the fact that we know the golden company was expecting to  meet viserys, I think the original plan was for Viserys to lead the dothraki horde to ravage the seven kingdoms, expecting the golden company to follow behind him.  The petrified eggs were supposed to be proof that Viserys and Daenerys were the two exiled royals, the golden company was then to come in and save the day and stab vis and dany in the back.  Thus, the beloved prince's son saves the realm from his crazy uncle and wife of a barbarian.



#17 Talking Hodor

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:29 AM

Illyrio aren't putting all their (dragon) eggs in one basket.  Viserys with his Dothraki army might end up successfully invading Westeros.  Daenerys and Drogo might live happily ever after and spawn a dozen Khal Aegos.  Aegon might succeed in uniting everybody behind his super claim to the Iron Throne.  I don't think they want any of them to fail, but they're not depending on Viserys or Daenerys succeeding, as these are kind of long shots.

 

The dragon eggs are just really expensive wedding gifts.  For all we know, Aegon has one too, which he's using as a paperweight.


Edited by Talking Hodor, 22 July 2014 - 09:30 AM.


#18 Suzanna Stormborn

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:33 AM

 

:agree:

 

As much, he needed Drogo to think she was a valuable wife, a Princess. Dragon eggs are a symbol of House Targaryen, from which she was the last and only princess, as far as they knew.

Thanks, yeah. People want to attribute so many things to Illyrio for giving her the egss, and the end it was just a coincidence, a plot gift or whatever.  Illyrio knew nothing.  No one on Planetos would give away live dragons eggs, they just wouldn't.  That is all.



#19 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:24 AM

They are basically just money. And a bit of symbolism for Drogo, that his new wife was indeed the trophy Illyrio made her out to be. Truth to tell, the eggs may have been paid for by the Pentoshi-Dothraki-Prevention fund.

 

Actually from what we have in the text it was part of the plan that Dany (with or without Viserys) and the Dothraki hoard would meet up with Aegon.  It's also been suggested that the army of Dothraki were to go do some sacking in advance so that Aegon could show up with the GC and play savior of Westeros.  Both of those options make sense.  V&I's conversation in the Red Keep in AGoT strongly suggests that they did intend for Dany to be in the mix.

 

Varys and Illyrio did not want Dany or her child dead.  It was Varys who sent word to Jorah warning him of the assassins and ordering him to protect Dany from them.  You do not simply call back a death order in a medieval society.  It takes time to communicate that the king has changed his mind. Given that the assassination attempts did stop though, it's likely that the contract was cancelled at some point, and Varys would have been the one to do it.

And why would Jorah do that? He never was a Targ loyalist and his pardon rested on Dany getting killed. Did Illyrio infect him with a love potion or what?

 

Furthermore, how to know in advance that he'd be successful? He didn't knew specifics, that he interferred in time was pure chance.

 

 

I don't feel like this makes any sense to me at all. Why would they hide Viserys and Dany for 14 years, just to give them to a Khal and let them get killed?

They didn't. Illyrio gathered V+I only six months prior to the books, when all the information about Drogo was already available. Presumably because they saw their chance.



#20 Skinchanging Sweetrobin

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:30 AM

I think it's pretty certain Jorah was initially trying to bring Dany and the eggs to Asshai. Whether Illyrio and Jorah knew the eggs were magical or were just trying to please people who thought the eggs were magical is unknown, they weren't just expensive gifts.