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Why do people think Jon is Azor Ahai?


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#1 The Pimp

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:45 AM

Maybe it's a silly question, but I can't get it. If you assume that AA and PTWP are the same person, then the logical conclusion is Dany, isn't it? She's born amidst smoke and salt and she actually woke dragons from stone. If you think instead that PTWP and AA are different people, then Dany can be the Prince and Jon Azor Ahai, but it's not so evident for me. So could you please explain me why some people seem so certain of it? :)

#2 JonSnow4President

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:53 AM

Maybe it's a silly question, but I can't get it. If you assume that AA and PTWP are the same person, then the logical conclusion is Dany, isn't it? She's born amidst smoke and salt and she actually woke dragons from stone. If you think instead that PTWP and AA are different people, then Dany can be the Prince and Jon Azor Ahai, but it's not so evident for me. So could you please explain me why some people seem so certain of it? :)

At bare minimum for Azor Ahai, we have Mel's flames screaming that Jon is AA.  

 

From the wiki: 

 

 

 

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall beLightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him
  • We know we've had a long summer.  
  • We've had the red comet (a "bleeding star," Arthur Dayne's death (arguably a bleeding star), as well as Ser Patrek's heraldry bleeding above Jon as he is killed (a star of course, bloody thanks to our giant friend).  
  • The cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.  IMO, this is clearly the cold of the others.  
  • While we don't have anything resembling this yet, we have Jon's dream of him wielding a flaming sword against the Other's, likely a strong bit of foreshadowing

Then there's the fact that Jon is actually the only one in position at the moment to lead the fight against the others (assuming survival/resurrection).  Stannis has a red sword that emits light, but not the heat of burning, as pointed out by our wonderful Maester Aemon.  Dany is nowhere near atm.  

 

Making the case that Jon could be TPTWP, the best amalgamation of the requirements for the TPTWP that I could quickly find are the wiki (quick search of forums and Compendium yielded nothing, please correct if wrong)

 

 

 

  • The birth of a male child - a prince. (erroneous according to Maester Aemon)[1]
  • The prince is of the blood of the dragon.[1]
  • Born amidst smoke.[1][5]
  • Born amidst salt.[1][5]
  • A bleeding star in the skies.[1] (also mentioned is being born beneath a bleeding star[5])
  • Possibly the return of dragons (when he was a boy Aegon V Targaryen recalled that King Aerys I read about the return of dragons in a prophecy.)[6]
  • The dark eye falls upon the prince?

 

  • Maester Aemon says a suddenly realized translation error allows Dany to fulfill this requirement.  Since we know Jon has something between his legs, there is no need for the translation error.
  • See R+L=J, v 1-89
  • Born Amidst smoke:  Some possible source of smoke at ToJ.  If rebirth, smoke of his wounds, or source of smoke to be identified at healing/rebirth
  • Born admist salt:  Potentially Lyanna's tears.  If rebirth, Marsh's tears or source of salt to be identified at healing/rebirth
  • A bleeding Star: Potentially a reference to Arthur Dayne.  In Ned's fever dream, a "red streaked sky" is also identified, but this is of questionable reliability.  If rebirth, Ser Patrek's bloody heraldry.
  • Return of dragons:  Some theorize there is an ice dragon locked within the wall, to be awoken at the sacrifice of some unknown parties (I've seen Stannis and Shireen theorized).  Could refer to Dany bringing her dragon's back to Westeros.  Could refer to Jon, (f?)Aegon, and Dany returning as Targaryen heirs.
  • Dark eye falls upon the prince:  This could refer to Euron having plans about Dany.  Per the wiki, we have the following quote:

 

 

That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit … conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders … 
-Jorah translating Benerro, ADWD, Chapter 27, Tyrion

 

This clearly refers to the others IMO.  Assuming that, who is actually at the site of the location of the likely first big fight with the others?

 

The case isn't crystal clear for Jon over Dany.  However, both can fit, which makes me want to go with the less obvious for TPTWP.  If you believe Jon doesn't fit, by all means, go with Dany as TPTWP.  TPTWP and AA are not necessarily the same person.


Edited by JonSnow4President, 21 July 2014 - 10:20 AM.


#3 Consigliere

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:58 AM

We also have this line from Mel's PoV in Dance: “I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.”

 



#4 RumHam

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:01 AM

The evidence for Dany is pretty air tight, as The Pimp points out.  I personally think "The dragon has/must have three heads" means that Dany and Jon are each 1/3 of Azor Ahai reborn.

 

 
  • We've had the red comet (a "bleeding star," Arthur Dayne's death (arguably a bleeding star), as well as Ser Patrek's heraldry bleeding above Jon as he is killed (a star of course, bloody thanks to our giant friend).  

 

The red comet is the bleeding star.  The others are a real stretch. Especially Ser Patrek, since he and his sigil are only there because the New York Giants won a football game.  Also it's "a red star bleeds" neither Patrek or Arthur's stars were red.


Edited by RumHam, 21 July 2014 - 10:08 AM.


#5 SunflashJT

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:05 AM

I don't think the evidence for Dany is as clear as people say it is.  But I do believe that we are in for some great storytelling in the next book.



#6 PirateVergo

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:06 AM

Because Martin wouldn't put so many hints for Jon being AAR if that was Dany.

She already fulfilled the prophecy in book 1.

Clearly Martin does not want us to believe that Dany is AAR.

 

Also Jon is the main character of the wall storyline, not Dany



#7 JonSnow4President

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:23 AM

 

The evidence for Dany is pretty air tight, as The Pimp points out.  I personally think "The dragon has/must have three heads" means that Dany and Jon are each 1/3 of Azor Ahai reborn.

 

 

 

The red comet is the bleeding star.  The others are a real stretch. Especially Ser Patrek, since he and his sigil are only there because the New York Giants won a football game.  Also it's "a red star bleeds" neither Patrek or Arthur's stars were red.

 

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if he made an easter egg into a functioning plot device.  And quite frankly, a comet isn't a star, and that has to refer to Dany's rebirth.  I think Dany fits better, but I think Jon still fits.

 

As far as the AA, it just says stars bleed above.  (Source on wiki says it's a Davos chapter in CoK, around p 148.  


Edited by JonSnow4President, 21 July 2014 - 10:24 AM.


#8 sj4iy

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:24 AM

I think TPWWP and AAR are the same person.

 

I think that person is Jon.

 

Up until the last book, I thought it was Dany...that it had to be Dany.  But then we got so, SO many hints and clues that it is Jon in the last book that I changed my mind.

 

1. Jon knows about Lightbringer, and knows that Stannis' is not the real sword.

2. Jon has a dream about being armored in black ice (obsidian) and holding a flaming sword (lightbringer).  He is then awakened by a gnarled hand grabbing his shoulder and Mormont's raven crying "King Jon Snow" (this is more than likely Bloodraven).

3. Jon's assassination, while it is an in-joke about the Giants and Cowboys, still fits the first half of the prophecy.  There's absolutely nothing saying that Martin couldn't simply have worked that into his storyline or changed something when he thought it fit better, so I think we have to take it as face value and not simply write this off.

 

- darkness gathers: Jon loses consciousness

- star bleeds: the bloody star sigil

- reborn: either Jon will be literally or figuratively reborn

- smoke: the would is smoking in the cold air

- salt: Bowen Marsh's tears

- wake the dragon out of stone: this is the part we have yet to see, but could mean anything from a real dragon to a metaphorical dragon (ie: Jon wakes to find that he is a Targaryan)

 

4. Also, only a few pages before Jon's assassination, Melisandre is trying to tell him that his ships are lost, and he scoffs at her:  

 

“Your ships are lost. All of them. Not a man shall return. I have seen that in my fires.”

“Your fires have been known to lie.”

“I have made mistakes, I have admitted as much, but—”

“A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?” 

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that Jon mentions this right before he is stabbed amongst salt and smoke.

 

5. Melisandre saying "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hollor shows me only Snow."  With a capital "S".  This is about the most direct evidence we've had in the entire book series.

 

As others have mentioned, he is also the one who has been doing the most to fight the Others, and I see no reason why someone else would take on that mantle at this point in the story.


Edited by sj4iy, 21 July 2014 - 10:26 AM.


#9 JonSnow4President

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:27 AM

 

“A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?” 

 

Didn't notice that on first read through. Definitely a strong point for Jon in that (on the fence for TPTWP.  AA clearly Jon, IMO)



#10 RumHam

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:32 AM

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if he made an easter egg into a functioning plot device.  And quite frankly, a comet isn't a star, and that has to refer to Dany's rebirth.  I think Dany fits better, but I think Jon still fits.

 

I know a comet isn't a star, but they are precieved that way by the people of Westeros. Just like "shooting stars" in our world aren't really stars. Aemon and Rhaegar thought a comet they saw years ago was the bleeding star in question.

 

As far as the AA, it just says stars bleed above.  (Source on wiki says it's a Davos chapter in CoK, around p 148.  

 

Someone repeating the prophecy may have left out the detail that the star is supposed to be red.

 

Early in Clash:

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!”

 

Dance:

 

“He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord’s chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragon-stone is the place of smoke and salt.”
 
She's not wrong about Dragonstone, just about Stannis.  


#11 The Pimp

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:33 AM

Thank you all for the answers, I think the only real hint is the Melisandre chapter in ADWD, but I'm still not convinced at all. I think this whole prophecy about AA/PTWP is quite a mess, and I'm not even sure we will find out for a certainity in the next books... Maybe the interpretation will remain open for the reader

#12 PirateVergo

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:40 AM

 

 

, I think the only real hint is the Melisandre chapter in ADWD

What about Jon's fighting others with Lightbringer in his dreams?



#13 sj4iy

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:43 AM

Thank you all for the answers, I think the only real hint is the Melisandre chapter in ADWD, but I'm still not convinced at all. I think this whole prophecy about AA/PTWP is quite a mess, and I'm not even sure we will find out for a certainity in the next books... Maybe the interpretation will remain open for the reader

 

I would say the dream is also a huge hint.

 

I would also ask if you believe Dany is AAR, where is her Lightbringer?


Edited by sj4iy, 21 July 2014 - 10:43 AM.


#14 RumHam

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:45 AM

I would also ask if, you believe Dany is AAR, where is her Lightbringer?

 

Dragons.



#15 JonSnow4President

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:45 AM

 

I would say the dream is also a huge hint.

 

I would also ask if you believe Dany is AAR, where is her Lightbringer?

Well, playing Devil's advocate, her dragons (Nissa Nissa being Drogo, in a wonderfully feministic turn of events).  And to counter, where is Jon's lightbringer?  We still have 2 books for either.



#16 sabrecmc

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:48 AM

I think whenever a character says "X is AAR!" then that is probably not correct. So, when Aemon says Dany is AAR, I kind of crossed her off  my mental list.  I'm sure this isn't 100%, but it just seems that we aren't at the point of the story for the big reveal just yet. 



#17 RumHam

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:48 AM

Jon's Lightbringer would probably also be one of the dragons.  (Assuming that Daenerys, Jon and a third person are all elements of "Azor Ahai reborn.")



#18 JonSnow4President

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:49 AM

I think whenever a character says "X is AAR!" then that is probably not correct. So, when Aemon says Dany is AAR, I kind of crossed her off  my mental list.  I'm sure this isn't 100%, but it just seems that we aren't at the point of the story for the big reveal just yet. 

I thought Aemon was talking about TPTWP (of course, that's arguably the same as AAR)?



#19 The Pimp

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:50 AM

I would also ask if you believe Dany is AAR, where is her Lightbringer?[/quote]

I don't think Dany is AA, I'm not convinced that is Jon.

The dream is also a big hint, true, maybe I'm only confused about it because I didn't figure it myself but only found out in the forum.

#20 El Guapo

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:51 AM

I think whenever a character says "X is AAR!" then that is probably not correct. So, when Aemon says Dany is AAR, I kind of crossed her off  my mental list.  I'm sure this isn't 100%, but it just seems that we aren't at the point of the story for the big reveal just yet. 

 

So if Mel says it is Jon next book will that disqualify him?