Bloodraven and Coldhands

[Rodrik Harlaw]

Are they for the good of the Realm?
Or something more sinister?

[Ser Creighton]

Sinister.

[Guess who's back]

grey?

[Deep Like Davos]

Good.

BR/CH have been fighting the Others (who, at the moment atleast, i think are evil).

BR may be influencing a lot of major characters besides Brand and Jojen through their dreams as well. I am currently doing a reread with this one theory in mind. Think about Jaime's dream right before he gets to Harrenhal, Theon's "feast of the dead dream" and Euron's dream he references right before he sends Victarion to Mereen.

[CJ McLannister]

Depends on what you mean by "the realm." I think they want to save the world. I don't think they care about the Iron Throne, or maintaining peace in the Seven Kingdoms, except that a peaceful realm is more likely to be able to stand against the Others.

[SunflashJT]

Depends on what you mean by "the realm." I think they want to save the world. I don't think they care about the Iron Throne, or maintaining peace in the Seven Kingdoms, except that a peaceful realm is more likely to be able to stand against the Others.

:agree:

[Rodrik Harlaw]

What about when Cold Hands and the ravens (BloodRaven) kills the three nights watch rangers?
Killing off people who's lives are sworn to defend against the others
seems a bit foreboding..

​

[Rodrik Harlaw]

Good.

BR/CH have been fighting the Others (who, at the moment atleast, i think are evil).

BR may be influencing a lot of major characters besides Brand and Jojen through their dreams as well. I am currently doing a reread with this one theory in mind. Think about Jaime's dream right before he gets to Harrenhal, Theon's "feast of the dead dream" and Euron's dream he references right before he sends Victarion to Mereen.

remind me of these dreams friend,

you're saying that BR is "dream visiting" Jamie, Theon and Euron?

[Fanless Mace]

I suspect BR wants to be and do good, but has a hard time playing that role given the darkness in his heart. For sure, the mystery of how he ended up leaving the NW and sitting entwined in tree roots must be an important part of his story.

I wonder for instance of BR has renounced his NW vows. I suspect not.

Coldhands similarly may feel beholden by his NW vows. I prefer to think this is true for both of these guys.

But in the case of BR, his role, I believe he knows, was to find a stronger one - Bran - to serve a more vital purpose for the realm and beyond.

[Rodrik Harlaw]

I suspect BR wants to be and do good, but has a hard time playing that role given the darkness in his heart. For sure, the mystery of how he ended up leaving the NW and sitting entwined in tree roots must be an important part of his story.

I wonder for instance of BR has renounced his NW vows. I suspect not.

Coldhands similarly may feel beholden by his NW vows. I prefer to think this is true for both of these guys.

But in the case of BR, his role, I believe he knows, was to find a stronger one - Bran - to serve a more vital purpose for the realm and beyond.

They obviously have forsaken their vows if they are killing brothers of the nights watch, no?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

remind me of these dreams friend,

you're saying that BR is "dream visiting" Jamie, Theon and Euron?

Jamie has a weird dream while sleeping at the foot of a weirwood tree. Don't know if BR is involved but he could be.

Theon has a sort of prophetic dream as well, but I don't recall the details of where (Winterfell, but not sure if he was in proximity to the godswood at the time).

Euron specifically mentioned a crow talking to him about flying. That one I know is in AFFC. It really stood out to me, that apparently Euron has some kind of potential for using magic. Makes him more dangerous than anyone realizes, except maybe for Aeron.

To the OP: I'm undecided but leaning toward good. Despite the rumors about him BR seems to have led an honorable life. I wouldn't bet he's being completely altruistic but I do think ultimately he's doing what he can to save Westeros, even though the country as a whole never appreciated him.

[BearQueen87]

to the OP: I lean toward "bad" or least not fighting for the side we think they are. I get very suspicious when mortal humans suddenly have god-like powers and BR is basically an Old God now. He might be fighting to save Westeros, but going about in a way that works with the Others/ COTF

[Rodrik Harlaw]

to the OP: I lean toward "bad" or least not fighting for the side we think they are. I get very suspicious when mortal humans suddenly have god-like powers and BR is basically an Old God now. He might be fighting to save Westeros, but going about in a way that works with the Others/ COTF

This is what I'm starting to suspect. I've read the prequels but the thing that makes me suspicious is when Cold Hands and the ravens kill the nights watch rangers. Even Bran and all his party know that its a monster that they are following, but its too late to turn back.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

They obviously have forsaken their vows if they are killing brothers of the nights watch, no?

Pretty sure that the Night's Watch men they killed were the deserters at Craster's. In other words, they killed men who had already forsaken their vows and broken guest right and would have been subject to execution anyway.

Depends on what you mean by "the realm." I think they want to save the world. I don't think they care about the Iron Throne, or maintaining peace in the Seven Kingdoms, except that a peaceful realm is more likely to be able to stand against the Others.

I think this is probably the closest thing to the correct answer. I think Bloodraven is privy to information about politics and the Iron Throne (I think he's warging Balerion), but in the grand scheme of things, he has bigger fish to fry than whose ass polishes that chair. I come down on the side of Bloodraven being "good," but in perhaps a more coldly utilitarian/cosmic way that might be hard for people to wrap their heads around. It's also possible that Bran disagrees with Bloodraven's methods and rebels in some way. If Bloodraven ends up "bad," I think it's a matter of him doing bad things with good intentions, not actual malice.

[Lady Flandrensis]

I suspect BR wants to be and do good, but has a hard time playing that role given the darkness in his heart. For sure, the mystery of how he ended up leaving the NW and sitting entwined in tree roots must be an important part of his story.

I wonder for instance of BR has renounced his NW vows. I suspect not.

Coldhands similarly may feel beholden by his NW vows. I prefer to think this is true for both of these guys.

But in the case of BR, his role, I believe he knows, was to find a stronger one - Bran - to serve a more vital purpose for the realm and beyond.

I agree except that I think they renounced their vows. They deserted. It'd be nice to think they didn't but I'm pretty sure they did.

[Rodrik Harlaw]

Pretty sure that the Night's Watch men they killed were the deserters at Craster's. In other words, they killed men who had already forsaken their vows and broken guest right and would have been subject to execution anyway.

I think this is probably the closest thing to the correct answer. I think Bloodraven is privy to information about politics and the Iron Throne (I think he's warging Balerion), but in the grand scheme of things, he has bigger fish to fry than whose ass polishes that chair. I come down on the side of Bloodraven being "good," but in perhaps a more coldly utilitarian/cosmic way that might be hard for people to wrap their heads around. It's also possible that Bran disagrees with Bloodraven's methods and rebels in some way. If Bloodraven ends up "bad," I think it's a matter of him doing bad things with good intentions, not actual malice.

Thank you for clearing that up. You're right, I don't think the timing fits for the rangers Jon sent out, and what other rangers might there be?

And if anyone would know of what happened at Craster's, it would be BR

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I agree except that I think they renounced their vows. They deserted. It'd be nice to think they didn't but I'm pretty sure they did.

The entire backstory, or lack thereof, of how Bloodraven ended up as a tree is in and of itself bizarre.

Look at Jon and Sam and things they think and conversations they have. Both of them end up pretty well-versed in the history of the order. Jon regularly reflects back on previous lord commanders and what they did or didn't do, and how well that did or didn't work, in order to form educated opinions on how to act now. Takeaway: Jon and Sam should both know who Brynden Rivers was, vis a vis the Watch. There are also at least a few very old members of the Watch who would have been alive when Brynden was on the Wall.

So basically, here we have a half-Targaryen bastard albino sorcerer lord commander of the Watch who just up and fell off the face of the earth one day, apparently, and no one remembers or thinks about how strange that is, or wonders what happened to him. Plenty of people who've vanished get thought of or mentioned (Brandon the Shipwright, Gerion Lannister), but not Bloodraven. The entire thing is just utterly strange.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Pretty sure that the Night's Watch men they killed were the deserters at Craster's. In other words, they killed men who had already forsaken their vows and broken guest right and would have been subject to execution anyway.

I think this is probably the closest thing to the correct answer. I think Bloodraven is privy to information about politics and the Iron Throne (I think he's warging Balerion), but in the grand scheme of things, he has bigger fish to fry than whose ass polishes that chair. I come down on the side of Bloodraven being "good," but in perhaps a more coldly utilitarian/cosmic way that might be hard for people to wrap their heads around. It's also possible that Bran disagrees with Bloodraven's methods and rebels in some way. If Bloodraven ends up "bad," I think it's a matter of him doing bad things with good intentions, not actual malice.

I think BE wanted an united kingdom, or unlist an untouched north. After all, someone has to be behind the omen of the dead Dwolf with the antlers.

[Rodrik Harlaw]

I think BE wanted an united kingdom, or unlist an untouched north. After all, someone has to be behind the omen of the dead Dwolf with the antlers.

So BR also is potentially responsible for the Stark pets?

Interesting.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So BR also is potentially responsible for the Stark pets?

Interesting.

That's the theory, yeah. That the kids all "received" the wolves for a reason and are all wargs for a reason. Statistically speaking, having six wargs in one family in one generation should be almost impossible. The thinking then is that there's a supernatural purpose behind it.