Bloodraven and Coldhands

[Wolf's Pack]

That's the theory, yeah. That the kids all "received" the wolves for a reason and are all wargs for a reason. Statistically speaking, having six wargs in one family in one generation should be almost impossible. The thinking then is that there's a supernatural purpose behind it.

Do you think BR is able to give the Skinchanging ability to other people?

or is it the Direwolves that gave it to them

[The Bastard of Walton]

I think they're for the good of the realm. Cant wait to find more out about Bloodraven in WOW.

[BearQueen87]

I do have a hard time to see what exactly Bloodraven or the CotF did to creep so many people.

Those NW brothers Coldhands killed were the mutineers that deserved to die. Bloodraven saw the whole mutiny from the eyes of Mormont's Raven and tracked the mutineers. In fact, Coldhands lingered for a couple of days for their arrival. Meera realized they were drawing circles before Coldhands took off for the execution.

Coldhands is a perfect tool, like serving the Others their own food. He is invincible to wights attack, cold, hunger. If not for him, who could have brought Bran to the Cave?

I am waiting for someone to point what makes BR looking evil.

ETA: Oh, by the way, I think Coldhands is just a meat suit that is dominated by Bloodraven. BR acted and spoke through him.

Not necessarily evil but suspicious given he's a human who has attained god-like powers. I question his motivations.

Also, I think this is worth mentioning: emotional conflict in the war for the Dawn on the part of the readers. Let's say all our favorite characters--whoever they might be, Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Ayra, Sansa, Bran, Sam, Stannis, Davos--end up fighting together on one side against the Others. How does that give the reader any sort of emotional conflict? Obviously I want those guys to win and take down the Others. For the War for the Dawn to have real conflict, I think it makes sense that someone is going to be on the other side. Bran, IMO, has always been the Ice factor and he might be our window into what the Others are and what the want, with the assistance of Bloodraven. I think he's going to learn that they are not black-hatted villains (because evil for the sake of evil is boring) and will be persuaded (or maybe even tricked/magicked) into helping. Because now when it comes to the War for the Dawn, there is a greater conflict than just good vs evil because most people like Bran. Who am I supposed to root for in this case? Would Jon have to face his baby brother in battle? It's incredibly tragic.

[Deep Like Davos]

Coldhands could potentially be Duncan the Tall.

Although Barristan claims that Duncan the Tall died in the fire of Summerhall,

Barristan also says that a certain prophetic woods witch died as well, but she is most likely the woman Arya encounters with the BWB

Depending on what happened at summerhall, Dunk might have lived and traveled north to the NW

Believing that there was something more important there, than his KG vows as lord commander.

Whether or not he is Duncan though, BR is very likely warging Coldhands or using some necromancy on him

For why would an Other's animated Wight be helping the last Greenseer?

More likely Coldhands is Daemon II than Dunk. If CH was Dunk then his abnormal size (something brought up by everyone their first time seeing him) would have been mentioned.

[Rodrik Harlaw]

More likely Coldhands is Daemon II than Dunk. If CH was Dunk then his abnormal size (something brought up by everyone their first time seeing him) would have been mentioned.

Good point. Daemon would have been kept alive because of the Blackfyre problem

and he could have very well ended up at the wall at some point.

[Deep Like Davos]

Good point. Daemon would have been kept alive because of the Blackfyre problem

and he could have very well ended up at the wall at some point.

Yes! I started another thread about this. I need to update it. Since i wrote is some new info through GRRM's readings have come out.

The Great council that chose Aegon the Unlikely was about 3 years before Daemon III landed with another rebellion. Considering how long news takes to get from KL to Essos, the time it would take to gather and prepare an army, then sail to Westeros with that army the timelines start to match up.

Daemon was sent to the Wall, took the black, lost his right to the (pretend) crown, and Daemon III was crowned.

[JBlaze94]

I do have a hard time to see what exactly Bloodraven or the CotF did to creep so many people.

To me at least, they seem too willing to be good. If that makes sense. Ya know it is kind of like that quote from Goodfellas "it is the murderers who greet you with a smile on their face". They seem good on the outside, but I think they have some darkness to them. I see them as the opposite of R'hllor.

R'hllor's religion seems pretty evil. Between the sacrifices, and the shadow demons. I think R'hllor is a legitimately good god, but he has "bad" practices.

Just my thoughts, I need more info on these guys before I make a final decision.

[Ghosts Lunch]

In what way? If you ignore the fact that he was ordered to assimilate by the Halfhand, he still didn't hold any lands, take any wife, or father any children. Nothing in the vows says "sleep with no Wildling."

Neither has Brynden Rivers though when we think about it carefully....

I find it intriguing that a half-Targaryen would affiliate with the Old Gods in the first place

The idea that BR/Old Gods could be in league with the Others is interesting, but Brans first vision when he looks North to Land of Always Winter and screams and then he is told by 3-eyed Raven now he knows why he must live illustrates they are against the Others

This and while the CoTF haven't always got on great with the First Men etc, there is the matter that they are even more strongly opposed to the Others, hence they forge the Dragonglass and help to defeat them during the Long Night

[BearQueen87]

Neither has Brynden Rivers though when we think about it carefully....

I find it intriguing that a half-Targaryen would affiliate with the Old Gods in the first place

But he's more than just a half-Targ. He's a Greenseer. There are all those rumors about Bloodraven doing dark magics and he obviously was having prophetic dreams. It makes sense that he would associate with the Old Gods of the North; they're the ones who are connected to the prophetic dreams and magic.

[BastardlyRock]

Not necessarily evil but suspicious given he's a human who has attained god-like powers. I question his motivations.

Also, I think this is worth mentioning: emotional conflict in the war for the Dawn on the part of the readers. Let's say all our favorite characters--whoever they might be, Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Ayra, Sansa, Bran, Sam, Stannis, Davos--end up fighting together on one side against the Others. How does that give the reader any sort of emotional conflict? Obviously I want those guys to win and take down the Others. For the War for the Dawn to have real conflict, I think it makes sense that someone is going to be on the other side. Bran, IMO, has always been the Ice factor and he might be our window into what the Others are and what the want, with the assistance of Bloodraven. I think he's going to learn that they are not black-hatted villains (because evil for the sake of evil is boring) and will be persuaded (or maybe even tricked/magicked) into helping. Because now when it comes to the War for the Dawn, there is a greater conflict than just good vs evil because most people like Bran. Who am I supposed to root for in this case? Would Jon have to face his baby brother in battle? It's incredibly tragic.

Yes. I just wanted to say I support this post 100%. And your sig is amazing :D

[BearQueen87]

Yes. I just wanted to say I support this post 100%. And your sig is amazing :D

:cheers:

[Lost Melnibonean]

As long as your name ain't Jojen, or you're not a... um "sow," I guess their good...

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Neither has Brynden Rivers though when we think about it carefully....

I find it intriguing that a half-Targaryen would affiliate with the Old Gods in the first place

The idea that BR/Old Gods could be in league with the Others is interesting, but Brans first vision when he looks North to Land of Always Winter and screams and then he is told by 3-eyed Raven now he knows why he must live illustrates they are against the Others

This and while the CoTF haven't always got on great with the First Men etc, there is the matter that they are even more strongly opposed to the Others, hence they forge the Dragonglass and help to defeat them during the Long Night

With a few exceptions (Bran, Meera, Hodor, Jojen, if they've figured it out, and maybe Coldhands) everyone thinks Brynden Rivers died beyond the Wall, lost on a ranging or some such thing. But since he's alive, he kind of deserted. Unless of course we take the approach that he is still working to protect the realm, and still honoring his vows. I kind of wonder what that does to the LC numbers. Would everyone elected after him not really count?

The other half of his ancestry is the key here. His mother was a Blackwood. They have the blood of the First Men. Their sigil is a weirwood tree with a border of ravens. Their keep is called Raventree.

I agree, he is against the Others, unless he's been doing some pretty fast talking where Bran is concerned. However, that doesn't necessarily mean he's entirely good. He could easily have something up his sleeve...er, branch.

[Khal BlackfyreO]

With a few exceptions (Bran, Meera, Hodor, Jojen, if they've figured it out, and maybe Coldhands) everyone thinks Brynden Rivers died beyond the Wall, lost on a ranging or some such thing. But since he's alive, he kind of deserted. Unless of course we take the approach that he is still working to protect the realm, and still honoring his vows. I kind of wonder what that does to the LC numbers. Would everyone elected after him not really count?

The other half of his ancestry is the key here. His mother was a Blackwood. They have the blood of the First Men. Their sigil is a weirwood tree with a border of ravens. Their keep is called Raventree.

I agree, he is against the Others, unless he's been doing some pretty fast talking where Bran is concerned. However, that doesn't necessarily mean he's entirely good. He could easily have something up his sleeve...er, branch.

This! Bloodraven is the only half-Targaryen with an obvious connection to the Old Gods. And if you have read the Dunk and Egg novellas, it is suggested he discovered his powers long before he headed North.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Do you think BR is able to give the Skinchanging ability to other people?

or is it the Direwolves that gave it to them

I didn't see an answer to your question (though admittedly I might have missed it). I don't think so, on either count. That ability seems to be tied to First Men heritage, which the Starks have in spades. The Wildlings are almost pure First Men and skinchanging is well-known among their population.

The real mystery is how is it that a bloodline with skinchanging ability had that talent go dormant? Might have something to do with the loss of magic in the world. When magic comes back, the powers are activated maybe.

[Lykaios Wolfsheart]

Do you think BR is able to give the Skinchanging ability to other people?

or is it the Direwolves that gave it to them

I have been the considering both of those possibilities.

I see it as far more likely that the Starks all have a natural warging ability, but it will only be activated by a Direwolf (hence their family coat of arms, Brandon the Builder could have known the full details of this and chosen the symbol as a reminder). If I remember correctly the Direwolves were assumed extinct for thousands of years until that one they found in the snow. Maybe Bloodraven knew that the Stark children were important and needed to have the litter taken to them so that all the children could start to develop their warg abilities and eventually protect the realm in some way (especially Bran and Jon).

It would be cool if greenseers had the ability to give skinchanging abilities, but this doesn't make much sense as surely he would have given the abilities to some men he trusted to help protect the wall. In fact there could have been any number of greenseers who had the ambition to create an army of wargs, and if they had that power then there would have been nothing stopping them.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Both for the good. Coldhands killed traitors of the NW. Bloodraven aka Bryndon Rivers helped quash 3 rebellions and forsake his honour to protect the realm. IMO he is making amends for not being there for Roberts Rebellion in his present actions