Mormont's Raven

[Rodrik Harlaw]

Is Mormont's raven and/or the other ravens at castle black inhabited by Bloodraven?
And if so did BR help Jon to become Lord Commander?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1. Yes, Mormont's raven is almost certainly inhabited by Bloodraven.

2. Yes, Bloodraven played a role in Jon being elected.

[Rodrik Harlaw]

1. Yes, Mormont's raven is almost certainly inhabited by Bloodraven.

2. Yes, Bloodraven played a role in Jon being elected.

This is why the show is so sad,

its way harder to add that up without seeing Cold Hands and his murder of ravens.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Quoth the Raven: "Corn, corn, corn!"

Sorry. Couldn't resist. ;)

[sj4iy]

This is why the show is so sad,

its way harder to add that up without seeing Cold Hands and his murder of ravens.

The books are inundated with prophecies, dreams and visions to the point that it can become distracting to the reader (because they are trying to read something into everything). The show dispenses with all but the very, very crucial ones because it would give too much away.

Book-Jon needed help getting elected. I doubt show-Jon will need such help after everything Jon has done.

[Northernmonkey]

If you believe Bloodraven is inhabiting ravens then there's an interesting theory I read on another site about him communicating with Patchface via a raven.

I think some form of a connection between Patchface and Bloodraven has been indicated pretty heavily. In Cressen's prologue, the white raven arrives from the Citadel, and the first thing we ever hear Patchface say, he says immediately after Maester Cressen tells Maester Pylos to bring the white raven down so Shireen can see it:

Quote The fool turned his patched and piebald head to watch Pylos climb the steep iron steps to the rookery. His bells rang with the motion. "Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers," he said, clang-a-langing. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

The common interpretation of this is that Patchface is referring to the recently-hatched dragons, and that could of course be true. But look at the context here: Pylos goes to get the white raven, and Patchface, watching Pylos going to get the white raven, starts on about birds with scales. Bloodraven is associated with both ravens (birds) and dragons (scales instead of feathers), as Bloodraven is both a literal "white raven" (an albino son of House Blackwood) and a white dragon (his personal sigil).

And when Pylos brings the white raven to Shireen and it speaks, Cressen mentions that the white ravens are very smart. Patchface's response?

Quote "Clever bird, clever man, clever clever fool," said Patchface, jangling. "Oh clever clever fool."

Why is the fool so very clever? Because he, unlike everyone else in the room, knows this bird is also a man! And what does the white raven call Shireen? "Lady". Not "Princess". Mormont's raven, which many believe is being warged by Bloodraven, later calls Jon "King"---which could indicate that Bloodraven considers Jon, not Stannis, the "rightful" king. If Stannis is not a King, then Shireen is not a Princess---only a Lady.

Immediately after congratulating himself on being a "clever clever fool" (in my opinion, because he knows the "clever bird" is also a "clever man" (Bloodraven)), Patchface begins to sing:

Quote "The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord," he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. "The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord. " He jerked his head with each word, the bells in his antlers sending up a clangor. The white raven screamed and went flapping away to perch on the iron railing of the rookery stairs.

The only people in the room are Patchface, Shireen, and Cressen. But why does Patchface keep saying "my lord" here, a title inapplicable to everybody in the room? Because he's not talking to, or about, any of them. Because he's addressing the white raven, Lord Bloodraven. This is the only time Patchface ever mentions "my lord" in any of his prophecies---in fact, this utterance, in the presence of the white raven, is the only time Patchface says "my lord" at all.

[Ghosts Lunch]

If you believe Bloodraven is inhabiting ravens then there's an interesting theory I read on another site about him communicating with Patchface via a raven.

I think some form of a connection between Patchface and Bloodraven has been indicated pretty heavily. In Cressen's prologue, the white raven arrives from the Citadel, and the first thing we ever hear Patchface say, he says immediately after Maester Cressen tells Maester Pylos to bring the white raven down so Shireen can see it:

Quote The fool turned his patched and piebald head to watch Pylos climb the steep iron steps to the rookery. His bells rang with the motion. "Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers," he said, clang-a-langing. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

The common interpretation of this is that Patchface is referring to the recently-hatched dragons, and that could of course be true. But look at the context here: Pylos goes to get the white raven, and Patchface, watching Pylos going to get the white raven, starts on about birds with scales. Bloodraven is associated with both ravens (birds) and dragons (scales instead of feathers), as Bloodraven is both a literal "white raven" (an albino son of House Blackwood) and a white dragon (his personal sigil).

And when Pylos brings the white raven to Shireen and it speaks, Cressen mentions that the white ravens are very smart. Patchface's response?

Quote "Clever bird, clever man, clever clever fool," said Patchface, jangling. "Oh clever clever fool."

Why is the fool so very clever? Because he, unlike everyone else in the room, knows this bird is also a man! And what does the white raven call Shireen? "Lady". Not "Princess". Mormont's raven, which many believe is being warged by Bloodraven, later calls Jon "King"---which could indicate that Bloodraven considers Jon, not Stannis, the "rightful" king. If Stannis is not a King, then Shireen is not a Princess---only a Lady.

Immediately after congratulating himself on being a "clever clever fool" (in my opinion, because he knows the "clever bird" is also a "clever man" (Bloodraven)), Patchface begins to sing:

Quote "The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord," he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. "The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord. " He jerked his head with each word, the bells in his antlers sending up a clangor. The white raven screamed and went flapping away to perch on the iron railing of the rookery stairs.

The only people in the room are Patchface, Shireen, and Cressen. But why does Patchface keep saying "my lord" here, a title inapplicable to everybody in the room? Because he's not talking to, or about, any of them. Because he's addressing the white raven, Lord Bloodraven. This is the only time Patchface ever mentions "my lord" in any of his prophecies---in fact, this utterance, in the presence of the white raven, is the only time Patchface says "my lord" at all.

Some interesting points, i had been wondering if the White Ravens were inhabited/Warged by other creatures given the black ravens and white ravens have to be kept seperate given they fight but not after the above

Wasn't there a thread on this not that long ago, could have sworn I posted in it?

[Creeping Death]

If you believe Bloodraven is inhabiting ravens then there's an interesting theory I read on another site about him communicating with Patchface via a raven.

I think some form of a connection between Patchface and Bloodraven has been indicated pretty heavily. In Cressen's prologue, the white raven arrives from the Citadel, and the first thing we ever hear Patchface say, he says immediately after Maester Cressen tells Maester Pylos to bring the white raven down so Shireen can see it:

Quote The fool turned his patched and piebald head to watch Pylos climb the steep iron steps to the rookery. His bells rang with the motion. "Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers," he said, clang-a-langing. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

The common interpretation of this is that Patchface is referring to the recently-hatched dragons, and that could of course be true. But look at the context here: Pylos goes to get the white raven, and Patchface, watching Pylos going to get the white raven, starts on about birds with scales. Bloodraven is associated with both ravens (birds) and dragons (scales instead of feathers), as Bloodraven is both a literal "white raven" (an albino son of House Blackwood) and a white dragon (his personal sigil).

And when Pylos brings the white raven to Shireen and it speaks, Cressen mentions that the white ravens are very smart. Patchface's response?

Quote "Clever bird, clever man, clever clever fool," said Patchface, jangling. "Oh clever clever fool."

Why is the fool so very clever? Because he, unlike everyone else in the room, knows this bird is also a man! And what does the white raven call Shireen? "Lady". Not "Princess". Mormont's raven, which many believe is being warged by Bloodraven, later calls Jon "King"---which could indicate that Bloodraven considers Jon, not Stannis, the "rightful" king. If Stannis is not a King, then Shireen is not a Princess---only a Lady.

Immediately after congratulating himself on being a "clever clever fool" (in my opinion, because he knows the "clever bird" is also a "clever man" (Bloodraven)), Patchface begins to sing:

Quote "The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord," he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. "The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord. " He jerked his head with each word, the bells in his antlers sending up a clangor. The white raven screamed and went flapping away to perch on the iron railing of the rookery stairs.

The only people in the room are Patchface, Shireen, and Cressen. But why does Patchface keep saying "my lord" here, a title inapplicable to everybody in the room? Because he's not talking to, or about, any of them. Because he's addressing the white raven, Lord Bloodraven. This is the only time Patchface ever mentions "my lord" in any of his prophecies---in fact, this utterance, in the presence of the white raven, is the only time Patchface says "my lord" at all.

Of all the things I've read about Patchface's prophecies this is definitely my favorite, it never even occurred to me. Great post.

[Ziriath]

Still I wonder where and how Jeor Mormont got the raven. I can imagine it just found him and stuck to him. But he must have known what a warg is, yet he did not show any suspicion. Or learned who is inside the raven and was ok with it.

[Drth Fel]

Quoth the Raven: "Corn, corn, corn!"

Sorry. Couldn't resist. ;)

Nevermore...

[sj4iy]

Still I wonder where and how Jeor Mormont got the raven. I can imagine it just found him and stuck to him. But he must have known what a warg is, yet he did not show any suspicion. Or learned who is inside the raven and was ok with it.

TBF, Jon IS a warg and he has no idea, either.

BR may just be that good.

[BastardlyRock]

The books are inundated with prophecies, dreams and visions to the point that it can become distracting to the reader (because they are trying to read something into everything). The show dispenses with all but the very, very crucial ones because it would give too much away.

Book-Jon needed help getting elected. I doubt show-Jon will need such help after everything Jon has done.

I'm sorry, this just made me lol. The show dispensed with basically EVERY prophecy in the HotU, are none of them "very, very crucial ones" - ?

[BearQueen87]

TBF, Jon IS a warg and he has no idea, either.

BR may just be that good.

Honestly? I have this image of the BR/Raven flying into Jeor's room one day, settling on his shoulder and begging for corn. And that was that. Jeor couldn't get rid of it and secretly liked having a pet.

[sj4iy]

I'm sorry, this just made me lol. The show dispensed with basically EVERY prophecy in the HotU, are none of them "very, very crucial ones" - ?

Are they? That's debatable. But we have the Stallion who Mounts the World prophecy. We have the Azor Ahai prophecy. We have Bran and Jojen's prophecies. What we saw in the HotU is what the show wanted us to see, which was still full of symbolism and a bit more vague so as to not give anything away. I like that the show depends less on prophecy to tell the story than the books do...we get to see things unspoiled.

[BastardlyRock]

Are they? That's debatable. But we have the Stallion who Mounts the World prophecy. We have the Azor Ahai prophecy. We have Bran and Jojen's prophecies. What we saw in the HotU is what the show wanted us to see, which was still full of symbolism and a bit more vague so as to not give anything away. I like that the show depends less on prophecy to tell the story than the books do...we get to see things unspoiled.

I appreciate your opinion, but I disagree. I loved the show, don't get me wrong, but when they butchered the House of the Undying was when I genuinely started to feel it was going downhill (not to mention that horrible adaptation of the wonderful Halfhand material present in the book). This is just my opinion, and I know it's not representative of everyone, but it's been downhill since then (there have been some highlights, sure, but it's been gradually downhill). I personally don't feel that the books depend on prophecy, but they certainly give the story some soul that the show hasn't minded gutting. :dunno:

Back to the topic, I feel Mormont's raven is certainly BR, same as I feel certain greenseers/wargs can speak through ravens and sometimes say their names. Do I think the show will capture these wonderful little intricacies? ... Did the show capture the true outcome for the deserters in Craster's Keep?

[Rodrik Harlaw]

The books are inundated with prophecies, dreams and visions to the point that it can become distracting to the reader (because they are trying to read something into everything). The show dispenses with all but the very, very crucial ones because it would give too much away.

Book-Jon needed help getting elected. I doubt show-Jon will need such help after everything Jon has done.

I am unconvinced of the necessity,

they can add in more material (Crasters keep plot)

but they can't put in 1 person?

maybe they refused to do it without CGI but ran out of CGI budget on the dragons.

Probably why they will end up making a lengthy movie, with a big budget, to end the show.

[JonisHenryTudor]

The books are inundated with prophecies, dreams and visions to the point that it can become distracting to the reader (because they are trying to read something into everything). The show dispenses with all but the very, very crucial ones because it would give too much away.

Book-Jon needed help getting elected. I doubt show-Jon will need such help after everything Jon has done.

Maybe a spoiler!!!!!!!!

I didn't watch this season, I am sort of in boycott mode. But I did watch the episode on the battle of CB. The election of Jon will likely be easy considering that it seems Alliser Thorn died in the battle and Slynt tucked tail and hid.

Honestly? I have this image of the BR/Raven flying into Jeor's room one day, settling on his shoulder and begging for corn. And that was that. Jeor couldn't get rid of it and secretly liked having a pet.

:agree: Or something of a similar event.

[Blackfyre Gateau]

I always had a sense that Mormont would have 'inherited' the Raven from his predecessor as LC, with Maester Aemon possibly having placed it there. It's never clear when Bloodraven disappeared from the Wall, but I get the feeling he's long passed from living memory of the Night's watch - with the obvious exception of Maester Aemon.

[sj4iy]

I am unconvinced of the necessity,

they can add in more material (Crasters keep plot)

but they can't put in 1 person?

maybe they refused to do it without CGI but ran out of CGI budget on the dragons.

Probably why they will end up making a lengthy movie, with a big budget, to end the show.

I don't know what you mean by "can't put in 1 person"...who are you talking about?

[Ashkhen]

TBF, Jon IS a warg and he has no idea, either.

BR may just be that good.

That's a good point. I always thought Mormont's raven couldn't be a real/full/typical warg because someone would have recognized it. It was so visceral with Bran & 6skins, guess that's what stuck in my head.