Rickards' Starks Death

[Bryden Tully]

One thing I've never understood is how Rickard Stark asked for a trial by combat, which is considered to be based on Religion ( the gods pick the winner)

Why didn't any of the Kingsguard/lords question when Aereys denied Rickard that right and basically burned him alive right there? Surely that would of akin to breaking guest rights-especially considering it was a high born lord.

It just seems strange that Hightower, Dayne and Barristan didn't even question it, let alone the 500 other lords who watched it plus all the loyalists. Surely this one moment should of caused all support for Aerys to cease

[SunflashJT]

Aerys claimed that Fire was to be the Targaryen Champion, so they lit a blaze under him and Aerys watched the 'combat'. Kingsguard are the best knights in the kingdom but they have to obey their king no matter what, so they couldn't say anything in Rickard's defense. Every other lord in the kingdom was frozen by fear, fear that it would happen to them as well.

[Bryden Tully]

Aerys claimed that Fire was to be the Targaryen Champion, so they lit a blaze under him and Aerys watched the 'combat'. Kingsguard are the best knights in the kingdom but they have to obey their king no matter what, so they couldn't say anything in Rickard's defense. Every other lord in the kingdom was frozen by fear, fear that it would happen to them as well.

It just the fact they tied him up as well, Idk it just strikes me as almost being on par with the RW

[Lord_Rahl]

I agree. I'm surprised none of the other lords took offense immediately and were spurred to action. I mean if the MK can do it to Lord Rickard then who is safe?

[SunflashJT]

It just the fact they tied him up as well, Idk it just strikes me as almost being on par with the RW

I fully agree that it was an atrocity, however the KG is sworn to follow their king's commands whether they like it or not. It is a very sad deal but I am sure that Aerys didn't have his KG tie Rickard up, I am guessing that would have been the work of GC's or just men at arms. Similarly when the bring Brandon in I am guessing it was GC doing the heavy lifting while the KG all stood in front of the throne powerless to do anything.

[Bryden Tully]

yeah, just seems strange as Aerys could as Arthur Dayne or Barristan to fight for him in the trial-two of the best swordsmen in the History of Westeros

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Arthur Dayne has been presented as the quintessential chivalrous knight. How could he support the atrocities of Aerys, that even Jaime was horrified by?

Well... keep reading.

[stateofdissipation]

One thing I've never understood is how Rickard Stark asked for a trial by combat, which is considered to be based on Religion ( the gods pick the winner)

Why didn't any of the Kingsguard/lords question when Aereys denied Rickard that right and basically burned him alive right there? Surely that would of akin to breaking guest rights-especially considering it was a high born lord.

It just seems strange that Hightower, Dayne and Barristan didn't even question it, let alone the 500 other lords who watched it plus all the loyalists. Surely this one moment should of caused all support for Aerys to cease

Trial by combat or trial by battle is a method to settle accusations in which two parties in dispute fight in single combat, possibly to the death.

Trial by combat ends when either party yields or is killed; or when the accuser takes back his accusation; or when the accused declares himself guilty.

Aerys did not accuse Brandon of conspiring to kill Rhaegar he witnessed it.

Rickard did not dispute the charges he disputed the sentance.

Brandon calling---"Rhaegar come out to die" is declaring himself guilty.

None of the Kingsguard/lords questioned when Aereys because Rickard declared himself champion in trial by combat for a man that had declared himself guilty.

Surely that would of akin to breaking guest rights-

guest right is a two way street. Threatening or trying to kill your host breaks the guest right,

especially considering it was a high born lord.

the guest right does not account for the status of the guest. It is more like a human right,

Surely this one moment should of caused all support for Aerys to cease

It was harsh and sadistic. It did cost Aerys support. It was not completely wrong.

[Bryden Tully]

Trial by combat or trial by battle is a method to settle accusations in which two parties in dispute fight in single combat, possibly to the death.

Trial by combat ends when either party yields or is killed; or when the accuser takes back his accusation; or when the accused declares himself guilty.

Aerys did not accuse Brandon of conspiring to kill Rhaegar he witnessed it.

Rickard did not dispute the charges he disputed the sentance.

Brandon calling---"Rhaegar come out to die" is declaring himself guilty.

None of the Kingsguard/lords questioned when Aereys because Rickard declared himself champion in trial by combat for a man that had declared himself guilty.

Surely that would of akin to breaking guest rights-

guest right is a two way street. Threatening or trying to kill your host breaks the guest right,

especially considering it was a high born lord.

the guest right does not account for the status of the guest. It is more like a human right,

Surely this one moment should of caused all support for Aerys to cease

It was harsh and sadistic. It did cost Aerys support. It was not completely wrong.

Not really. Brandon didn't see himself guilty of treason, the same way that Tyrion wouldn't see himself guilty of treason/or cersei for that matter (despite both of them berating and hitting Joffrey)

Your missing the entire point here-Aerys accepted that there would be a trial by combat and so did Rickard. Aerys summoned Rickard accepting him to have a trial-you make it out as if Aerys rejected it however in his own twisted way he accepted there would be a trial by combat

[JonisHenryTudor]

Well some people seem to think that Rhaegar was on the verge of disposing of his father, so perhaps some of the KG knew of this? If so, kept their mouth shut until the opportune time?

[stateofdissipation]

Not really. Brandon didn't see himself guilty of treason, the same way that Tyrion wouldn't see himself guilty of treason/or cersei for that matter (despite both of them berating and hitting Joffrey)

Your missing the entire point here-Aerys accepted that there would be a trial by combat and so did Rickard. Aerys summoned Rickard accepting him to have a trial-you make it out as if Aerys rejected it however in his own twisted way he accepted there would be a trial by combat

If the king saw Tyrion strike Joff or Cersei, Tyrion's opinion of what he did does not matter or the king's opinion does matter matter.

In the cases of trial by combat we have seen two persons of equal rank accuse and deny and a higher authority acts as a judge.

In cases where a higher ranking person accuses a lower ranking person, there are executions.

Ned is going to execute Jorah for slavery. If he "I sold the poacher because he needed the money", he could not demand trial by combat because he admitted his guilt.

Lady Stoneheart captured a Frey that demanded a witness. LS came in and provided the witness. The Frey could not demand trial by combat because his guilt was already proven.

If Bran's assassin had survived the attempt, He could not demand that Catelyn grant him trial by combat because she (the judge) had witnessed the crime.

In Cersei's case;

The High Sparrow has Osney tortured to verify his false confession. Under that duress, Osney tells a different story, which implicates Cersei in the death of the previous High Septon and in having sexual relations with Osney. This news allows the High Sparrow to arrest Cersei.

Osney is to be executed for the murder of the murder he admitted

The faith has Osney's confession. Osney cannot demand trial by combat.

Cersei confesses to the High Septon that she did have relations with her cousin Lancel and all three of the Kettleblack brothers, knowing that such sins would not earn her an execution.

She continues to deny having ordered Onsey to kill the previous High Septon, or that she was involved in King Robert's death

The Faith has Osney's confession and Cersei's denial.... She can demand trial by combat.

Your missing the entire point here-Aerys accepted that there would be a trial by combat and so did Rickard. Aerys summoned Rickard accepting him to have a trial-you make it out as if Aerys rejected it however in his own twisted way he accepted there would be a trial by combat

The "trial by combat" is a means to determine the guilt or innocence of the accused. The champion ties himself to the fate of the accused.

The concept is to let the god's decide the truth of the charges.

Rickard had the same chance to not burn as he had to prove the falsity of the charges: none.

A bad joke yes.

Rickard's heir got it in his head from somewhere that he could challenge the Targaryens. His support of his son showed him to be the most likely source.

[Danelle]

Why didn't any of the Kingsguard/lords question when Aereys denied Rickard that right and basically burned him alive right there? Surely that would of akin to breaking guest rights-especially considering it was a high born lord.

It just seems strange that Hightower, Dayne and Barristan didn't even question it, let alone the 500 other lords who watched it plus all the loyalists. Surely this one moment should of caused all support for Aerys to cease

The question for me isn't why the KG didn't object Aerys' choice of champion, but why theydon't seem bothered.

Even if one argues that Rickard deserved to die for Brandon's foolish behaviour, this doesn't explain what Aerys did to Brandon.

And while Rickard and Brandon are the most shocking example, they weren't the ones to suffer.

"He was on his way to Riverrun when . . . " Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. " . . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

Hoster, who appears to be quite reasonable called Brandon gallant fool. I assume that he expected Brandon to demand justice for Lyanna, but I don't think that he expected from him to demand to kill the Prince of Dragonstone.

"He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me."

People rarely mention that Brandon wasn't alone, instead he was escorted by other highborn men. Catelyn remembered their names.

"Ethan Glover was Brandon's squire," Catelyn said. "He was the only one to survive. The others were Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn, Jon Arryn's nephew and heir." It was queer how she still remembered the names, after so many years. "Aerys accused them of treason and summoned their fathers to court to answer the charge, with the sons as hostages. When they came, he had them murdered without trial. Fathers and sons both."

Only a Glover survived. The others, including the heir to the Vale were killed, without a trial according to Catelyn, but of course, Jaime knows best.

"There were trials. Of a sort. Lord Rickard demanded trial by combat, and the king granted the request. Stark armored himself as for battle, thinking to duel one of the Kingsguard. Me, perhaps. Instead they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys's pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard needed to do to prove himself innocent of treason was . . . well, not burn. "When the fire was blazing, Brandon was brought in. His hands were chained behind his back, and around his neck was a wet leathern cord attached to a device the king had brought from Tyrosh. His legs were left free, though, and his longsword was set down just beyond his reach.

According to Jaime, it was a slow and painful death, and even after all those years, it is still haunting him.

"The pyromancers roasted Lord Rickard slowly, banking and fanning that fire carefully to get a nice even heat. His cloak caught first, and then his surcoat, and soon he wore nothing but metal and ashes. Next he would start to cook, Aerys promised . . . unless his son could free him. Brandon tried, but the more he struggled, the tighter the cord constricted around his throat. In the end he strangled himself.

If you notice the way that Jaime, a KG, describes the scene, you will see that it wasn't something sloppy. So far, we have read about terrible things in the books, but the horrible people who commit those crimes, usually act fast. Think of the way that poor Rhaenys was killed, the multiple stabbing, Ned's beheading, Yoren dying while fighting Lorch's men.

"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

Lord Rickard's death was too slow and too painful, even by westerosi standards.

All the KG knights did was standing and watching.

The way that Jaime describes the incident, from the perspective of a witness, who was also a KG knight, makes me think that Aerys' true KG were his pyromancers, in a similar way that Mel is considered by some to be Stannis' Queen.

Aerys doesn't really need them and he certainly doesn't fear them.

He never feels threatened or even intimidated by their presence, and it is likely that by the time Jaime joined the KG, the KG knights had stopped to argue with his decisions (if they ever argued).

The other lords who were present, they didn't question Aerys for the same reason that no one from Joffrey's court, questioned Sansa's abuse.

The only person who stood up against Joffrey, was Tyrion, but at the time he was Hand, a Lannister and the king's uncle. Still, as Sansa recalls, Ser Arys is the only one to object whenever Joffrey orders him to abuse her and he does feel regret about it and he is grateful to be far from Joffrey.

Perhaps, at some point, Hightower and the rest, objected like Arys, but once it was proven to be futile, they stopped.

I think that Hightower's warning to Jaime, wasn't just meant to discourage him from acting against Aerys, but also to protect him. Had Jaime voiced his opposition or tried to save the Starks, he might have been tortured as well.

Well some people seem to think that Rhaegar was on the verge of disposing of his father, so perhaps some of the KG knew of this? If so, kept their mouth shut until the opportune time?

I actually think that this was part of Rhaegar's plan.

Jaime is a POV character and he admired Arthur and Rhaegar, but he was too young to take part in secret meetings to plot against Aerys.

Plots, ploys, whispers, lies, secrets within secrets, and somehow I have become part of them. Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne.

Barristan, who was older than Jaime, and an honourable man as well, had not gained Rhaegar's trust.

I believe that Rhaegar and Dayne, were plotting to overthrow Aerys, but very few people were aware of their plans and they still feared what Aerys would do to them if he found out.

With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Har renhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

It is also likely, that Hightower was also aware of Rhaegar's plans, and he didn't want to provoke Aerys, by questioning his sadistic choices.

[stateofdissipation]

"Ethan Glover was Brandon's squire," Catelyn (Tully-Stark--sister-in-law to Arryn) said. "He was the only one to survive. The others were Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn, Jon Arryn's nephew and heir." It was queer how she still remembered the names, after so many years. "Aerys accused them of treason and summoned their fathers to court to answer the charge, with the sons as hostages. When they came, he had them murdered without trial. Fathers and sons both."

Brandon Stark

Ethan Glover--Overlord Stark

Jeffory Mallister--Overlord Tully

Kyle Royce--Overlord Arryn

Elbert Arryn, Jon Arryn's nephew

Catelyn (Tully-Stark--sister-in-law to Arryn) said. he (Aerys Targaryen) had them (Tully, Stark, and Arryn) murdered without trial. Fathers and sons both

This is hardly an unbiased source.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Tully, Stark, and Arryn arrive in King's Landing protesting the kidnapping of a woman betrothed to the Baratheons. In open defiance of the Targaryens.They did not ask for the king's justice. They came to mete out justice to the king.

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Let us now look at the threat that posed to Aerys:

Opposition

Stark--open defiance

Tully--open defiance

Arryn--open defiance

Baratheon--undeclared/hostile

Loyalists

Martell--questionable with Rhaegar abandoning their princess.

Lannister--questionable with Jamie's appointment to KG and Tywin's resignation.

Tyrell---

Greyjoy---did not support the Targaryens.--post hoc

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Aerys was mad for thinking he could stop the rise of the great houses against the Targaryens with 8 or 9 executions.

Aerys was mad for excuting the traitors before the Starks, Arryns, Tullys, and Baratheons were in for questioning.

Aerys was not mad for taking what Brandon did as treason.

Aerys was not mad for making an example of traitors.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Not really. Brandon didn't see himself guilty of treason, the same way that Tyrion wouldn't see himself guilty of treason/or cersei for that matter (despite both of them berating and hitting Joffrey)

There is nothing in the text that gives us Brandon's thoughts on the matter. And whether he thought it or not, he was in fact guilty of treason. Shouting for the death of the crown prince is treason.

Why is everyone forgetting that the full KG slate wouldn't have been there? Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent at least were with Rhaegar, who was with Lyanna. Abduction happened first. That's the whole inspiration for Brandon's dumbass move. That means no more than five were present including Jaime the newbie whose position was precarious (king hates his father and all that), and Jonothor Darry who is the one who told Jaime they are to protect the queen, but not from the king. Yeah, I know Darry was technically correct but it's still a lousy thing to say. So now we're down to three viable candidates for protest, assuming those three are present as well. Was Hightower sent to find Rhaegar before or after Rickard and Brandon's deaths?

[joluoto2]

Well some people seem to think that Rhaegar was on the verge of disposing of his father, so perhaps some of the KG knew of this? If so, kept their mouth shut until the opportune time?

It is possible. but for that Rhaegar need to have some kind of political awareness, and for everything we've heard about him he didn't give a squat about politics.

[JonSnow4President]

There is nothing in the text that gives us Brandon's thoughts on the matter. And whether he thought it or not, he was in fact guilty of treason. Shouting for the death of the crown prince is treason.

Why is everyone forgetting that the full KG slate wouldn't have been there? Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent at least were with Rhaegar, who was with Lyanna. Abduction happened first. That's the whole inspiration for Brandon's dumbass move. That means no more than five were present including Jaime the newbie whose position was precarious (king hates his father and all that), and Jonothor Darry who is the one who told Jaime they are to protect the queen, but not from the king. Yeah, I know Darry was technically correct but it's still a lousy thing to say. So now we're down to three viable candidates for protest, assuming those three are present as well. Was Hightower sent to find Rhaegar before or after Rickard and Brandon's deaths?

Unless "come out and die" is simply the story that was told of "come and duel me to the death." Ever played the game "telephone?" Word of mouth isn't that accurate.

[Talking Hodor]

What Aerys did was effed up, and he and his entire house paid the price. Most of the Kingsguard aren't going to stop the king, but one did - Jaime. I don't see the problem.

[l2 0 5 5]

The White Bull tells Jaime that they swore to protect the king and not to judge him. I'm not sure what's so hard about understanding that. Jaime isn't going to rebel against 6 KG brothers just because he found it messed up. The other 6 were loyal to the bone to their vows and they did what they were told. Did they have their own personal thoughts that they voiced inside their head to themselves? They probably did, but they weren't going to act on them.

Not to mention, no one in that chamber probably had any reason to want to save a Stark. We always hear that Northerners don't get involved in southern matters, so why should any southerner give a damn and risk his/her own neck to save some stranger?

[Lord Damian]

Ser Oswell Whent and Ser Arthur Dayne were with Rheagar and Lyanna and were not in the throne room at the time. I am unsure how many Kingsguards were in the throne room nor if the entire Royal family (Rhaella, Viserys, Elia, Rheanya and baby Aegon) were there as well. We do know that Lord Commander Gerold Hightower and Ser Jaime Lannister were there, probably the others too, Selmy, Martell and Dary.

[stateofdissipation]

Unless "come out and die" is simply the story that was told of "come and duel me to the death." Ever played the game "telephone?" Word of mouth isn't that accurate.

Aerys had them arrested.... is not word of mouth...

Accepting - "come and duel me to the death." as Brandon's words... does not absolve him of the charges.

Brandon still went to the Red Keep and defied the king's justice.

Brandon was within his rights to ask the king for justice and to level charges against Raegar, The king could hear the charges and render a verdict or Brandon could demand trial by combat. To get to dueling Rhaegar, Brandon had to go through the king. He did not.

An attempt to duel Rhaegar outside the king's peace and king's justice is illegal. An illegal killing is murder. The charge still fits.