Why didn't Rhaegar challenge Robert Baratheon for Lyanna's hand?

[willofDorne]

This seems like a pretty reasonable idea if you want to break someone's prior engagement.

[BearQueen87]

This seems like a pretty reasonable idea if you want to break someone's prior engagement.

And if Rhaegar has lost....?

Lyanna's feelings play in as well. We know that she had less than positive feelings for Robert having learned that he had a child in the Vale, that he wouldn't keep to one bed, and that love is sweet but wouldn't change a man's nature. If she was willing to run off with Rhaegar and Rhaegar also had some other political concerns, like finding a way to put Aerys aside for the sake of the realm, then it's rather important he remain alive. Also important if Rhaegar believes that his child with Lyanna would be the third head and/or TPTWP.

in short: because their plan, without the benefit of hindsight, was easier and the outcome of them being together was essential for mythic and prophetic reasons.

[willofDorne]

And if Rhaegar has lost....?

Lyanna's feelings play in as well. We know that she had less than positive feelings for Robert having learned that he had a child in the Vale, that he wouldn't keep to one bed, and that love is sweet but wouldn't change a man's nature. If she was willing to run off with Rhaegar and Rhaegar also had some other political concerns, like finding a way to put Aerys aside for the sake of the realm, then it's rather important he remain alive. Also important if Rhaegar believes that his child with Lyanna would be the third head and/or TPTWP.

in short: because their plan, without the benefit of hindsight, was easier and the outcome of them being together was essential for mythic and prophetic reasons.

I find it ironic that your title is "Defender of bears"

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

And if Rhaegar has lost....?

Lyanna's feelings play in as well. We know that she had less than positive feelings for Robert having learned that he had a child in the Vale, that he wouldn't keep to one bed, and that love is sweet but wouldn't change a man's nature. If she was willing to run off with Rhaegar and Rhaegar also had some other political concerns, like finding a way to put Aerys aside for the sake of the realm, then it's rather important he remain alive. Also important if Rhaegar believes that his child with Lyanna would be the third head and/or TPTWP.

in short: because their plan, without the benefit of hindsight, was easier and the outcome of them being together was essential for mythic and prophetic reasons.

:agree: Also, given Robert's attentions to other women, perhaps Rhaegar figured he could be persuaded with the hand of another LP's daughter. Cersei Lannister was certainly available, the most desirable girl of her generation. He may have figured that once the "abduction" of Lyanna Stark was a fait accompli, they could negotiate.

We also don't know what was going on in the background, and who may have known about this besides the Kingsguard. In one of my first posts here earlier this summer, I likened R+L to the real-life historical couple of Simon de Montfort and Princess Eleanor of England, John Lackland's daughter.

(In fact, if I find an icon and make a signature, I'll likely link that post in my sig. I love medieval and Renaissance history, and have enjoyed finding parallels between ASOIAF and history, especially the Wars of the Roses. However, I think GRRM borrows from a broader stretch of English history than that.)

[Boarsbane]

He was a coward

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

He was a coward

A true coward wouldn't have faced Robert at the Trident. He very well could have abdicated and taken Lyanna to the Free Cities, raising Jon there.

Rhaegar was no coward.

[Boarsbane]

A true coward wouldn't have faced Robert at the Trident. He very well could have abdicated and taken Lyanna to the Free Cities, raising Jon there.

Rhaegar was no coward.

While everyone else was fighting the war he helped cause he was sitting in Dorne, he is a coward. It wouldn't surprise me if Robert had to cut his way through most of the loyalist forces to even get to the coward.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Because he had more important things to figure out like deposing his father and see the way his child wouldn't a bastard, unlike Robert who didn't care about having bastards all around and was fucking whores while Lyanna was being "raped", than behave like a 5 years old boy whose toy has been stolen.

[Boarsbane]

Because he had more important things to figure out like deposing his father and see the way his child wouldn't a bastard

How did that work out for him? Last I checked he sat in Dorne for a year and Jaime's sword did the deposing completely unrelated to Rhaegar, in fact the hack was already dead.

[rodrick the wrestler]

Because he had more important things to figure out like deposing his father and see the way his child wouldn't a bastard, unlike Robert who didn't care about having bastards all around and was fucking whores while Lyanna was being "raped", than behave like a 5 years old boy whose toy has been stolen.

Pretty sure Robert and Ned went to war for more reason then that. Like aerys wanting their heads, aerys killing Rickard and Brandon stark the list goes on. I'm not saying Robert was perfect he was far from it but he wasn't "behaving like a 5 year old boy whose you has been stolen".

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Pretty sure Robert and Ned went to war for more reason then that. Like aerys wanting their heads, aerys killing Rickard and Brandon stark the list goes on. I'm not saying Robert was perfect he was far from it but he wasn't "behaving like a 5 year old boy whose you has been stolen".

I know they haven't gone to the war for that, but the question is about "Lyanna's hand" and why didn't they solve it like that.

First, Lyanna's not some lands they can fight over. Lyanna doesn't decide what she wants to do and who she wants to marry, but her father. Nevertheless, she has an opinion and she didn't like Robert. Had Robert won, what would have happened? She wouldn't go willing and happily with him.

Also, Rhaegar didn't "steal" her from Robert nor he was planning to do such, for what it looks like, Lyanna went willingly with him and he didn't force her at all.

And yes, about the whole situation, Robert did behave like a child. It was his own pride what Rhaegar "offended", that he "took Lyanna away" from him, like she was his property. Lyanna never wanted him and Robert never respected her. How do you go and bed whores while the woman you love is being raped?

[Winterfell is Burning]

Because he had more important things to figure out like deposing his father and see the way his child wouldn't a bastard,

Rhaegar was so concerned about Aerys that he spent several months hidden in Dorne and left a potential massive crisis in the hands of his father.

If Rhaegar thought Aerys was so mad that he had to be deposed, why did he trusted him to solve the mess he would make by disappearing with Lyanna?

That makes no sense; in fact there's only three possible explanations

1. Rhaegar doesn't think Aerys is mad and has no problems with him being in power. This means Rhaegar is an idiot,;

He knew Aerys was mad and still trusted him to solve any potential problems; this also makes Rhaegar an idiot, even more than scenario 1;

Or Rhaegar knew Aerys was mad, but he genuinely thought nothing bad could happen in the months, perhaps more than a year, that he planned to be alone with Lyanna until she delivered a child (heck, that could take years if she had problems getting pregnant), whether directly related to his disappeareance or not. This makes him actually makes him even MORE of an idiot than in the other scenarios,

So, which one was it?

[Marcus Agrippa]

Rhaegar was so concerned about Aerys that he spent several months hidden in Dorne and left a potential massive crisis in the hands of his father.

If Rhaegar thought Aerys was so mad that he had to be deposed, why did he trusted him to solve the mess he would make by disappearing with Lyanna?

That makes no sense; in fact there's only three possible explanations

1. Rhaegar doesn't think Aerys is mad and has no problems with him being in power. This means Rhaegar is an idiot,;

He knew Aerys was mad and still trusted him to solve any potential problems; this also makes Rhaegar an idiot, even more than scenario 1;

Or Rhaegar knew Aerys was mad, but he genuinely thought nothing bad could happen in the months, perhaps more than a year, that he planned to be alone with Lyanna until she delivered a child (heck, that could take years if she had problems getting pregnant), whether directly related to his disappeareance or not. This makes him actually makes him even MORE of an idiot than in the other scenarios,

So, which one was it?

I can't believe I am about to defend Rhaegar... He couldn't have forseen the Tyrells wasting time with Stannis or Tywin stepping out of line like that. He really wasn't a smart man Rhaegar but he couldn't have expected the people around his father to be that dumb or for Robert, Ned, and Jon ot move that fast either.

[Aetta]

Why would he have to? He's the Crown Prince and a Targ to boot, nature dictates that he should simply take her if he wants to and no one gets to ask him a damn thing about it, save his father.

So what is implied in the OP is that Rhaegar is a guy we can infer has some dignity and majesty-he's not Aerion-and should have been a chivalrous dude and fought for the right to his lady. Only, he had a lady back at home, and cousin Robert would never get away with laying a finger on Rhaegar in the presence of the KG, the City Guard, et al.

Guess what I am getting at is that Rhaegar is as complex a character (allbeit not as developed) as everyone else. He made a choice to be sneaky whereas we would have expected more of him given the other descriptions of his character throughout the book. Reckless romance is sexier in a novel, let's face it. It's such a sterile throwback to have him duel for his lady, and nothing about these novels is sterile or overtly cliched. They ran off to have a passionate affair, damn the consequences. To me, it's a much better read than a duel ending with Robert or Rhaegar laying with their back in the dirt, Lyanna on the sidelines with a handkerchief and teary eyes. That would be BORING....and would lead to zilch as far as the rest of the book(s).

[Highlord sparrow]

Westeros like medieval England has quite strict patriarchal socio- political structures (apart from Dorne). Father's decide which family you are wed into and the bride itself has little say in it as Margery shows us. I'm not fully sure of Sothron ambitions but I doubt the Targaryen's would have been in the good books of Rickard Stark after his 'unreliable' character. Even if Rhaegar had a duel and won I doubt Lyanna's father would give him Lyanna. Even if Robert was cavalier enough to say that Lyanna was rightfully won, the Starks would simply marry her to some other lord creating another Southron alliance (Renly, Willas, Jamie, some Mallister or Hightower). Furthermore Aerys would be angered by Rhaegar's rebelliousness and the Dornish would be very very offended. Also if it was in the open all kingdom's could begin preparing for war to come. Rhaegar's move however was a sudden move that caught all players in the game by surprise, other than Lyanna, and also succeeded in it's goal of impregnating Lyanna. So that is why Rhaegar chose kidnapping over duel.

I also need to point out that all of you underestimate Robert's affection for Lyanna. Considering the moral climate of the time, whoring wasn't really that bad, and Robert is still playing the role of lost lover decades after the his Rebellion.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Rhaegar wasn't the King. He couldn't do more than obey his father and with the rebellion at their door (literally), he couldn't start a civil war to take him down, place himself on the throne and take better decisions. He even told Aerys he should call Tywin Lannister. Why not calling him himself? Because he couldn't. Many questions people ask about what Rhaegar did or did not are simply answered with "he wasn't the King. He couldn't go over his head". And, he couldn't go and tell Aerys to go and fuck himself either because he could get likely roasted, specially when we know that Aerys thought he was conspiring against him.

[Wmarshal]

I can't believe I am about to defend Rhaegar... He couldn't have forseen the Tyrells wasting time with Stannis or Tywin stepping out of line like that. He really wasn't a smart man Rhaegar but he couldn't have expected the people around his father to be that dumb or for Robert, Ned, and Jon ot move that fast either.

One Aerys pushed Tywin long ago, him not being involved was a given. Relying on the reach alone and the crorwnlands to save him is completely stupid.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I also need to point out that all of you underestimate Robert's affection for Lyanna. Considering the moral climate of the time, whoring wasn't really that bad, and Robert is still playing the role of lost lover decades after the his Rebellion.

I'm not talking about the whoring he could have had before his betrothal to Lyanna or after their marriage. I'm talking about the whores he had sex with DURING Lyanna's kidnapping, that one he often says Rhaegar committed to rape her.

[Wmarshal]

Rhaegar wasn't the King. He couldn't do more than obey his father and with the rebellion at their door (literally), he couldn't start a civil war to take him down, place himself on the throne and take better decisions. He even told Aerys he should call Tywin Lannister. Why not calling him himself? Because he couldn't. Many questions people ask about what Rhaegar did or did not are simply answered with "he wasn't the King. He couldn't go over his head". And, he couldn't go and tell Aerys to go and fuck himself either because he could get likely roasted, specially when we know that Aerys thought he was conspiring against him.

How was starting a war obeying his father?

Tywin is a prideful bastard it would be Aerys who needs to call him, for he offended him.

So he can kidnap a lord's daughter, but anything is to much?

[Winterfell is Burning]

I can't believe I am about to defend Rhaegar... He couldn't have forseen the Tyrells wasting time with Stannis or Tywin stepping out of line like that. He really wasn't a smart man Rhaegar but he couldn't have expected the people around his father to be that dumb or for Robert, Ned, and Jon ot move that fast either.

So, are you saying he saw potential for a war, but that's OK because he expected his side to win?

Rhaegar wasn't the King. He couldn't do more than obey his father and with the rebellion at their door (literally), he couldn't start a civil war to take him down, place himself on the throne and take better decisions. He even told Aerys he should call Tywin Lannister. Why not calling him himself? Because he couldn't. Many questions people ask about what Rhaegar did or did not are simply answered with "he wasn't the King. He couldn't go over his head". And, he couldn't go and tell Aerys to go and fuck himself either because he could get likely roasted, specially when we know that Aerys thought he was conspiring against him.

Well, this doesn't really answer my question. Unless you're implying Rhaegar knew that his actions would cause war and did them anyway.

And it was Rhaegar's actions coupled with Aerys that caused the rebellion at their door. Had he not disappeared with Lyanna, there's no dead Starks, no war.