Rhaegar's plan after the trident

[TheDarkEye]

Before riding to his death in the trident Rhaegar told Jaime he means to change things, changes he has been planning long ago but never acted. I don't have the quote.

What do you think was his plan? I think it was something to do with acting against his father but its just a feeling really... thoughts?

[BearQueen87]

Before riding to his death in the trident Rhaegar told Jaime he means to change things, changes he has been planning long ago but never acted. I don't have the quote.

What do you think was his plan? I think it was something to do with acting against his father but its just a feeling really... thoughts?

Most likely it was the removal of Aerys from the throne. Barristan recalls in one of his ADWD POVs that Harrenhal tourney was supposed to a set up for Rhaegar to begin talking to the high lords. Then Aerys showed up and that plan was shot to hell.

I don't know exactly how Rhaegar saw this plan coming to fruition--A great council or just quietly getting rid of him--but I think the overall goal was to prevent a war when Rhaegar put the plan into place.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Most likely it was the removal of Aerys from the throne. Barristan recalls in one of his ADWD POVs that Harrenhal tourney was supposed to a set up for Rhaegar to begin talking to the high lords. Then Aerys showed up and that plan was shot to hell.

I don't know exactly how Rhaegar saw this plan coming to fruition--A great council or just quietly getting rid of him--but I think the overall goal was to prevent a war when Rhaegar put the plan into place.

Isn't the story that Varys told Aery that the Tourney was being used to gather support for Rhaegar? We don't know whether this was really true, right? Varys isn't exactly a stellar source.

[BearQueen87]

Isn't the story that Varys told Aery that the Tourney was being used to gather support for Rhaegar? We don't know whether this was really true, right? Varys isn't exactly a stellar source.

Yes Varys tells Aerys that, but we hear it from Barristan in his POV which leads to believe that it's right. I think Varys knew what Rhaegar was planning and needed to stop it so he whispered an actual truth in the Mad King's ear knowing that Aerys would go to the Tourney. Add in Jamie's last conversation with Rhaegar and I think Barristan has the right of it.

Varys could lie, of course, but he manipulates situations to achieve his goals. If he wants the realm in chaos (if he's eventually planning some sort of Blackfyre/Brightflame take over) then having Rhaegar, a sane prince who might do some good and be loved, on the throne is not good.

[Lonin]

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council . Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago , but … well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

Martin, George R.R. (2011-03-22). A Game of Thrones 4-Book Bundle: A Song of Ice and Fire Series: A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, and A Feast for Crows (Song of Ice & Fire) (Kindle Locations 51938-51939). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Rhaegar planned to call a council and have his father removed.

[PrettyPig]

In my mind, totally unsupported by text of course, I have Rhaegar patterning himself after "good" Targ kings like Jaehaerys I, Daeron II, and Egg. IMO he was working to fully bring the North into the realm, perhaps even secured through a marriage and comingled Stark/Targ bloodline??, the same way that Dorne was cemented to the throne in the past. The North seems to be the one area that Targaryen blood hasn't infiltrated, really, and in pure speculative theory, Rhaegar wanted to emulate the kings of old and make that happen. If you also happen to have an ancient prophecy that can be fulfilled via this union, soopar kewl, two ravens with one stone if you will.

On the flip side, I get the impression that Rhaegar wasn't all that interested in sitting the IT himself, which would pose a problem considering that the next Targ in line is a young unstable boy, followed by an infant son (if Aegon was even conceived at this time). So, who then would be the successor to the throne? Only a Great Council knows.....like the GC that was convened in the past when it was clear the line of succession would need to be skipped, the GC that put Egg on the IT. In a nutshell, Rhaegar was working on some major unification that someone/several someones did not like and did not want to see come to fruition.

This obviously leads in to my purely unsubstantiated belief that all events from ToHH to the end of RR were skillfully orchestrated by another person, and Rhaegar/Lyanna were pawns in that game, but that is crackpot for another day.

[BearQueen87]

In my mind, totally unsupported by text of course, I have Rhaegar patterning himself after "good" Targ kings like Jaehaerys I, Daeron II, and Egg. IMO he was working to fully bring the North into the realm, perhaps even secured through a marriage and comingled Stark/Targ bloodline??, the same way that Dorne was cemented to the throne in the past. The North seems to be the one area that Targaryen blood hasn't infiltrated, really, and in pure speculative theory, Rhaegar wanted to emulate the kings of old and make that happen. If you also happen to have an ancient prophecy that can be fulfilled via this union, soopar kewl, two ravens with one stone if you will.

On the flip side, I get the impression that Rhaegar wasn't all that interested in sitting the IT himself, which would pose a problem considering that the next Targ in line is a young unstable boy, followed by an infant son (if Aegon was even conceived at this time). So, who then would be the successor to the throne? Only a Great Council knows.....like the GC that was convened in the past when it was clear the line of succession would need to be skipped, the GC that put Egg on the IT. In a nutshell, Rhaegar was working on some major unification that someone/several someones did not like and did not want to see come to fruition.

This obviously leads in to my purely unsubstantiated belief that all events from ToHH to the end of RR were skillfully orchestrated by another person, and Rhaegar/Lyanna were pawns in that game, but that is crackpot for another day.

I think Rhaegar planned on being King (with the Council electing him) but I also think that he considered himself a place holder until his son could come to the throne. I think you're more or less right Rhaegar himself wasn't overly interested in playing the game like some of the other high lords; he cares about what he reads in prophecy and that his son is TPTWP

[CJ McLannister]

he cares about what he reads in prophecy and that his son is TPTWP

I agree with this. I don't think he wanted to remove Aerys because Aerys was mad, but because Aerys was not going to prepare the realm for what was to come. Whether he foresaw specifics or not, I think he knew there was a greater threat coming than some disgruntled lords. A divided realm didn't stand a chance, regardless of who sat the throne.

[Eggshell Joe]

After the Trident, Rhaegar planned to call a council and make changes.

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council . Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago , but … well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

(Jaime 1 AFFC)

The council he mentioned took place secretly and the changes were his name and appearance. If you give it a chance, Mance alludes to the Battle of the Trident in his story to Jon.

“One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. […] smell of blood drew a shadowcat […] it shredded my cloak to ribbons […] shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die […] they carried me to a wildling village […] an old wisewoman [‘s daughter] .. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up[…] sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai. […] at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black […] and most of all, no red […] My old cloak was fit for burning now..
I left the next morning... for a place where a kiss was not a crime, and a man could wear any cloak he chose.”

(Jon I, ASoS)

Rhaegar died and was cremated, his old cloak was fit for burning. But in his new cloak, laced with shadowbinding magic from Asshai, he carried on. This theory bothers a lot of people, but it’s awesome and if it’s true, Rhaegar’s plans after the Trident are the most important plans anyone’s hatched in the whole series.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Any plan that includes: 'Beat the snot out Robert Baratheon and the combined army of half the kingdom' as just one step amongst many is very flawed. He didn't even seem to believe defeat was possible, yet as far as I can tell the rebellion ended up rather lopsided in favor of the rebels. They lost only one battle. I'd have been more worried, If I were Rhaegar, and perhaps tried to depose Aerys and see if peace could be reached

I agree with this. I don't think he wanted to remove Aerys because Aerys was mad, but because Aerys was not going to prepare the realm for what was to come. Whether he foresaw specifics or not, I think he knew there was a greater threat coming than some disgruntled lords. A divided realm didn't stand a chance, regardless of who sat the throne.

Rhaegar the Uniter!

You know, disappearing with a lord Paramount's daughter (and another's fiancee) might not be the best first step to uniting the kingdoms...

If he had an ounce of common sense, he'd have focused on removing Aerys first before going on with his third-head-of-the-dragon breeding program. But the very belief that he or his son are destined to save the world and that it takes precedence on everything are just a different form of megalomania, if you ask me.

[CJ McLannister]

But the very belief that he or his son are destined to save the world and that it takes precedence on everything are just a different form of megalomania, if you ask me.

Only if he's wrong.

[sj4iy]

After the Trident, Rhaegar planned to call a council and make changes.

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council . Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago , but … well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

(Jaime 1 AFFC)

The council he mentioned took place secretly and the changes were his name and appearance. If you give it a chance, Mance alludes to the Battle of the Trident in his story to Jon.

“One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. […] smell of blood drew a shadowcat […] it shredded my cloak to ribbons […] shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die […] they carried me to a wildling village […] an old wisewoman [‘s daughter] .. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up[…] sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai. […] at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black […] and most of all, no red […] My old cloak was fit for burning now..

I left the next morning... for a place where a kiss was not a crime, and a man could wear any cloak he chose.”

(Jon I, ASoS)

Rhaegar died and was cremated, his old cloak was fit for burning. But in his new cloak, laced with shadowbinding magic from Asshai, he carried on. This theory bothers a lot of people, but it’s awesome and if it’s true, Rhaegar’s plans after the Trident are the most important plans anyone’s hatched in the whole series.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how any of that fits together or alludes to one another.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Only if he's wrong.

Even if he's right.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

"When this battle’s done I mean to call a council . Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago , but … well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return"

We do know Oswell Whent's brother planned the Tourney after he got a visit from him. And Oswell Whent was the other KG, along with Dayne, to go "missing" with Rhaegar for around a year. To me, that means that Rhaegar's main motivation to leave KL and staying at the infamous Tower was to plan a way to remove Aerys from the throne without anybody interfering, specially after Varys ruined his original plans.

But to me, that specific wording also meant that at some point, his original plans had to change or, he got different stuff on his mind:

1. The news of his wife not being able to have more children. we know he often talked with Aemon about that and by the time Aegon was born, he was sure his son would be the Prince, not him.

2. Meeting Lyanna, and having a relationship with her, either because he really loved her or because he wanted another children. His concern here would be marrying him so their child wouldn't be a bastard.

3. The war itself, which completely ruined every plan of taking Aerys down, as they already had a different enemy. If his plans to remove Aerys failed, then he could be starting a civil war because Aerys was still the King after all.

[RainGhost]

Any plan that includes: 'Beat the snot out Robert Baratheon and the combined army of half the kingdom' as just one step amongst many is very flawed. He didn't even seem to believe defeat was possible, yet as far as I can tell the rebellion ended up rather lopsided in favor of the rebels. They lost only one battle. I'd have been more worried, If I were Rhaegar, and perhaps tried to depose Aerys and see if peace could be reached

Rhaegar the Uniter!

You know, disappearing with a lord Paramount's daughter (and another's fiancee) might not be the best first step to uniting the kingdoms...

If he had an ounce of common sense, he'd have focused on removing Aerys first before going on with his third-head-of-the-dragon breeding program. But the very belief that he or his son are destined to save the world and that it takes precedence on everything are just a different form of megalomania, if you ask me.

Haha, yeah, I agree that Rhaegar seemed to be a bit too hung up by a prophecy (from the little we know about him) - maybe he would have gone mad in the end?

And I'm sure the plan to unite the realm would have gone off without a hitch were it not for a certain wolf girl (though I do also believe there may have been at least one person behind the scenes pulling the strings). I think his plan was to hold a grand council where all the great lords agreed that Aerys was too mad to rule and they all gave their backing to him, although I'm sure it was more complicated than that.

[Eggshell Joe]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how any of that fits together or alludes to one another.

I’m sorry too, I guess it’s not very clear when I put it that way. It comes from the Mance is Rhaegar theory which elaborates on why/how/what Rhaeger did to become Mance. Basically Robert is the elk and Mance gets hurt one day but then leaves to do other stuff. In conclusion, Rhaegar didn't die, so whatever he was planning when he talked to Jaime was still in play after the Trident.

[sj4iy]

I’m sorry too, I guess it’s not very clear when I put it that way. It comes from the Mance is Rhaegar theory which elaborates on why/how/what Rhaeger did to become Mance. Basically Robert is the elk and Mance gets hurt one day but then leaves to do other stuff. In conclusion, Rhaegar didn't die, so whatever he was planning when he talked to Jaime was still in play after the Trident.

Thanks for the explanation. I don't believe any of it, but thanks for explaining what you meant ^^

[Eggshell Joe]

Thanks for the explanation. I don't believe any of it, but thanks for explaining what you meant ^^

No worries, it’s a tough pill to swallow.

I just think the alternatives are equally silly. From Rhaegar’s quote to Jaime we know he wasn’t resigned to death when he headed off to fight Robert, he had some kind of plan.

Dethroning Aerys in favor of himself is an option, but he’d just gone and lost support from 3 of the 7 kingdoms, including his Stormland cousins and mistress’/secondwife’s Northern family. Living out life quietly with Lyanna is an option, except he’d need to kill all the people who were mad at him and out for his blood.. ie as many Baratheons and Starks as were upset about the kidnapping.

The last option if he lived past the Trident seems to be taking the steps necessary to fulfill those prophecies he was so hung up on. I guess prophecies aren’t so specific but if he thought his son was TPTWP, he’d need to raise Aegon and/or Jon at least to their own maturity and train them to do whatever TPTWP is supposed to do.

In retrospect, both Aegon and Jon seem to have received the requisite leadership and martial training, putting them in positions of power right around their coming of age and what seems to be the imminent climax of ice and fire. So even if Rhaegar is really and truly dead, his long term plans are still fulfilled because his kids are alive and at least somewhat prepared to take action for or against ... something.

[sj4iy]

No worries, it’s a tough pill to swallow.

I just think the alternatives are equally silly. From Rhaegar’s quote to Jaime we know he wasn’t resigned to death when he headed off to fight Robert, he had some kind of plan.

Dethroning Aerys in favor of himself is an option, but he’d just gone and lost support from 3 of the 7 kingdoms, including his Stormland cousins and mistress’/secondwife’s Northern family. Living out life quietly with Lyanna is an option, except he’d need to kill all the people who were mad at him and out for his blood.. ie as many Baratheons and Starks as were upset about the kidnapping.

The last option if he lived past the Trident seems to be taking the steps necessary to fulfill those prophecies he was so hung up on. I guess prophecies aren’t so specific but if he thought his son was TPTWP, he’d need to raise Aegon and/or Jon at least to their own maturity and train them to do whatever TPTWP is supposed to do.

In retrospect, both Aegon and Jon seem to have received the requisite leadership and martial training, putting them in positions of power right around their coming of age and what seems to be the imminent climax of ice and fire. So even if Rhaegar is really and truly dead, his long term plans are still fulfilled because his kids are alive and at least somewhat prepared to take action for or against ... something.

Yeah, I don't pretend to know what Rhaegar was planning when he mentioned calling a council. To me it just seems that Rhaegar placed the fulfillment of the prophecy above everything, and maybe rightly so.

[Crowford]

I just can't shake the feeling that Rhaegar might have been wrong. About everything. That his political plans were as flawed as his reading of prophecy.

If he was trying to create a more stable rule in the Seven Kingdoms, he failed catastrophically and predictably. His actions in regard to Lyanna, even if she was in on it, was a set up for predictable disaster. Maybe, just maybe, he could have smoothed things over if it had stopped at the "ostensibly kidnap one powerful Lord's betrothed and another powerful Lord's daughter". But instead of trying to do that, he goes into hiding and lets his paranoid and trigger-happy father deal with the consequences. Which ends exactly as you'd think it would, with a civil war. Even if he wins, he is now in a worse position than before, because his chances of deposing Aerys are going to plummet. A lot of people who would have supported him before will now think twice, because he a ) fought against them and they won't trust him now, b ) showed an unhealthy disregard for feudal customs by kidnapping betrothed women, which tends to piss nobles off and c ) he arguably caused that damn war in the first place.

And if he loses, which he did, but apparently was too full of himself to even consider, every semblance of stability goes right out the window, and unless the next guy turns out to be completely inept (luckily for Rhaegar, that came true), no one is going to want a Targaryan again for a while.

But let's say he didn't care about all of that. He thought that only the prophecy mattered, and that his third child had to absolutely be fathered by Lyanna, and that this was more important than everything else. There seem to be two different things going on with Rhaegar and his breeding program: The Prince that was Promised, and the three heads of the dragon. The PtwP he saw in Aegon, so far so good. But then he also thought he needed three children, and apparently with the intention of emulating Aegon I and his sisters, because the first two names already matched up. So what he was probably expecting was another daughter. It seems that this didn't work out, but still, it would be a nice twist that Rhaenys was actually Aegon in this analogy. So let's assume that everything was still on track. But this shows the next glaring problem - he left his other two children to die. Again, he thought they wouldn't be in danger, because he would win at the Trident. And that plan failed. Aegon maybe survived, but not because of Rhaegar. But you know who is almost certainly dead? Rhaenys. If Rhaegar thought that it was important for his three children to be the three heads of the dragon, that plan is dead on arrival. If Rhaenys was the PtwP (Valyrian gender-neutral pronouns and all), even more so. And considering that Rhaegar at some point thought that it was he the prophecy talked about, we can infer that whatever Rhaegar was going on was mostly conjecture (it's not like he was told "your son will fulfill that prophecy" - he only applied it to Aegon because he interpreted the Red Comet as the bleeding star in the prophecy).

I actually hope that Rhaegar will go down in history as a cautionary tale about what happens when you think destiny is on your side.