Arya Surprise?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

OP, I see your stuff is as solid as always. "I have no evidence of any kind..." - here's a foundation of a good and proven theory. It is known. I, for one, am sold.

[John Suburbs]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/114618-rlj-v91/ would be a good place to start.

You really have 300+ posts and haven't seen the pinned R+L=J threads?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/82623-jon-snow-and-the-blue-winter-rosetta-stone/ Is also a good one.

I've seen em, read em, agree with most of them, but the fact is that they consist 99 percent of theory and speculation based on Ned's memories of the ToJ and the fact that he promised her something as she lay dying. The fact is there is simply no 'proof' in the text that Jon is Rhaeger's son, and in fact there is quite a bit to indicate otherwise: Wylla, Edric Dayne, etc.So spare me the flawed logic that means a guess is true simply because lots of people believe it.

And for all of you complaining about this "theory" that I've presented, I've done no such thing. Just some mild speculation that if Arya is a boy, this is how it could, repeat could, happen.

[JonSnow4President]

I've seen em, read em, agree with most of them, but the fact is that they consist 99 percent of theory and speculation based on Ned's memories of the ToJ and the fact that he promised her something as she lay dying. The fact is there is simply no 'proof' in the text that Jon is Rhaeger's son, and in fact there is quite a bit to indicate otherwise: Wylla, Edric Dayne, etc.So spare me the flawed logic that means a guess is true simply because lots of people believe it.

And for all of you complaining about this "theory" that I've presented, I've done no such thing. Just some mild speculation that if Arya is a boy, this is how it could, repeat could, happen.

There's not proven beyond a reasonable doubt (although as far as guessing what is happening in the future of a fantasy series, it's pretty damn close). But proof doesn't mean your damn sure. Proof is simply evidence that helps to establish the claim. Lyanna's promise (usually in reference to dead Targaryen children), some wonderful symbolism with blue roses, "king" references throughout the series (hiding in snow, Snow Ned, blood no more royal than mine, etc.), Jon's looks always tied (indirectly) to Lyanna's, and presence of kingsguard are all evidence that the theory grew out of. It's not a case of, "Well, this could happen and it can't be disproven."

So the speculation is based on literally nothing. It adds nothing to the broader discussion about the books. And it is somewhat sexist.

[MandrakeWench]

I guess it is possible that Ayra could have a penis so small that even she doesn't know about it.

But I find it far more likely that Bloodraven is actually warging her, and that while being warged she (he) is actually Rhaegar, cleverly glamoured as Arya.

[John Suburbs]

There's not proven beyond a reasonable doubt (although as far as guessing what is happening in the future of a fantasy series, it's pretty damn close). But proof doesn't mean your damn sure. Proof is simply evidence that helps to establish the claim. Lyanna's promise (usually in reference to dead Targaryen children), some wonderful symbolism with blue roses, "king" references throughout the series (hiding in snow, Snow Ned, blood no more royal than mine, etc.), Jon's looks always tied (indirectly) to Lyanna's, and presence of kingsguard are all evidence that the theory grew out of. It's not a case of, "Well, this could happen and it can't be disproven."

So the speculation is based on literally nothing. It adds nothing to the broader discussion about the books. And it is somewhat sexist.

All right, well here is the same kind of evidence:

Arya has the hands of a blacksmith. How many female blacksmiths are there in Westeros?

Arya easily passed as a boy from Kings Landing all the way to Harrenhall. Gendry was the only one who saw through it.

Arya watches Gendry working the forge with his shirt off, noticing his muscular arms, shoulders and chest, but there are no romantic stirrings. Odd for a girl of 11.

And she is constantly attracted to male-leaning things like swordplay, archery and climbing. Heck, she eats bugs.

She also looks more like Jon and Ned than her Lady Mother.

So it's all there, symbolism, circumstantial evidence and foreshadowing, just like R+L=J.

So stop pretending you are the arbiter of truth and facts on these boards and just give other people's screwball ideas the smirk they deserve and then move along.

OP, I see your stuff is as solid as always. "I have no evidence of any kind..." - here's a foundation of a good and proven theory. It is known. I, for one, am sold.

What theory? Who proposed a theory? All I said was that other posts that suggest Arya is a boy may not be completely crazy, just mostly crazy, and here is an example from modern medical literature that would explain it. Hardly rises to a theory, especially since I don't really believe it myself.

[White Ravens]

I've seen this idea posted on some of the Most Crack-Potted Theories threads, but I got to thinking about it and maybe it's not completely crazy, only slightly crazy:

Arya is a boy.

I have no evidence of any kind, other than Arya's tomboyish personality and the fact that she passed as a boy from LK to HH.

But there is a medical condition known as Ambiguous Genitalia that can sometimes make boy parts like and work like girl parts.

The question is, would GRRM really pull a trick like that at the 11th hour?

Ambiguous genitalia is definitely a real phenomenon, and is probably far more common than people think, even in these modern and "enlightened" times. But I think one of the things GRRM is trying to illustrate in these books is how brutal and unforgiving medieval society was. Modern society doesn't understand or accept (for the most part) ambiguous genitalia, so I doubt that GRRM is trying to work the concept into his story. I think he is simply trying to present Arya as a Tomboy on a grand scale.

[MandrakeWench]

This discussion is beginning to concern me a lot!

I have always considered myself female ... yet around Arya's age, I became intrigued with knives, battles, and science fiction, very unusual for a young girl. I did not eat bugs but I munched on some grass and weeds from the ground in a vacant lot one day. Should I examine myself more carefully in case there is a micro penis I am missing?

[fuem]

This discussion is beginning to concern me a lot!

I have always considered myself female ... yet around Arya's age, I became intrigued with knives, battles, and science fiction, very unusual for a young girl. I did not eat bugs but I munched on some grass and weeds from the ground in a vacant lot one day. Should I examine myself more carefully in case there is a micro penis I am missing?

Lol dont worry even if she gave Birth it would be like she warg a vagina

[Faceless Man Friday]

Instead of focusing on some supposed medical condition Arya might have even though there is no textural support for it, it might be more interesting to discuss why we are even discussing these crack pot theories in the first place. Winds of Winter better get here soon.

[MandrakeWench]

'Scuse me, I'm off to warg a vag...

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Instead of focusing on some supposed medical condition Arya might have even though there is no textural support for it, it might be more interesting to discuss why we are even discussing these crack pot theories in the first place. Winds of Winter better get here soon.

Because we mad. And/or bored.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I've seen em, read em, agree with most of them, but the fact is that they consist 99 percent of theory and speculation based on Ned's memories of the ToJ and the fact that he promised her something as she lay dying. The fact is there is simply no 'proof' in the text that Jon is Rhaeger's son, and in fact there is quite a bit to indicate otherwise: Wylla, Edric Dayne, etc.So spare me the flawed logic that means a guess is true simply because lots of people believe it.

And for all of you complaining about this "theory" that I've presented, I've done no such thing. Just some mild speculation that if Arya is a boy, this is how it could, repeat could, happen.

Ummm when a case is brought before a court, the proof is in the evidence found.There is not a giant sign that says Jaime Lannister threw Bran out of the window. In this case, the proof comes from the clues hidden in the text. You string the clues together and make a sensible argument based on the evidence.

[JonisHenryTudor]

All right, well here is the same kind of evidence:

Arya has the hands of a blacksmith. How many female blacksmiths are there in Westeros?

Arya easily passed as a boy from Kings Landing all the way to Harrenhall. Gendry was the only one who saw through it.

Arya watches Gendry working the forge with his shirt off, noticing his muscular arms, shoulders and chest, but there are no romantic stirrings. Odd for a girl of 11.

And she is constantly attracted to male-leaning things like swordplay, archery and climbing. Heck, she eats bugs.

She also looks more like Jon and Ned than her Lady Mother.

So it's all there, symbolism, circumstantial evidence and foreshadowing, just like R+L=J.

So stop pretending you are the arbiter of truth and facts on these boards and just give other people's screwball ideas the smirk they deserve and then move along.

What theory? Who proposed a theory? All I said was that other posts that suggest Arya is a boy may not be completely crazy, just mostly crazy, and here is an example from modern medical literature that would explain it. Hardly rises to a theory, especially since I don't really believe it myself.

My mother works in the yard all day and her hands are just as rough as a BS, so I ask her if she has AG?

She has short hair and no chest because she is 11. People thought my son was a girl because he had curly hair.

Romantic = love. Horny, which I believe you are referring to =/= love. To be honest, that would be odd to read considering she is only 11.

Boadicea led an army with a sword in hand. Many women in the amazon and other jungles also eat bugs for nourishment.

Children tend to look like their parents.

BUT, and I do realize that you are trying to make a point (the above), the one thing you left out of the R+L-J argument is the most important thing. Context.

[Light a wight tonight]

If anyone wants to read about a similar issue try Gary Jennings's Raptor, about a Gothic hermaphrodite in the late Roman Empire. Jennings gets a bit graphic in the sex department so it's not for the prudish.

[Starkfaithful85]

yeah and sansa is an actual little bird...by your logic she acts like one, and is called one, so it must be true...stop wastng peoples time

[Howling Mad]

So this crack pot theory would be known as X+X = X+Y

[John Suburbs]

Ummm when a case is brought before a court, the proof is in the evidence found.There is not a giant sign that says Jaime Lannister threw Bran out of the window. In this case, the proof comes from the clues hidden in the text. You string the clues together and make a sensible argument based on the evidence.

My mother works in the yard all day and her hands are just as rough as a BS, so I ask her if she has AG?

She has short hair and no chest because she is 11. People thought my son was a girl because he had curly hair.

Romantic = love. Horny, which I believe you are referring to =/= love. To be honest, that would be odd to read considering she is only 11.

Boadicea led an army with a sword in hand. Many women in the amazon and other jungles also eat bugs for nourishment.

Children tend to look like their parents.

BUT, and I do realize that you are trying to make a point (the above), the one thing you left out of the R+L-J argument is the most important thing. Context.

Still not following you. On the one hand you justify your theory-spinning based on context and available evidence, and then you deny others the same right simply because you are not convinced by the context and available evidence.

You could do the same kind of nitpicking with RL=J:

Ned comes back with a bastard, so we should all ask him it it's really his sister's?

The bastard looks like Ned so we should automatically assume it's not his until the text says otherwise?

In both cases, all the evidence and context cannot prove a negative, so if it's fair game to speculate on what Jon is not (Ned's son) than it's fair game to speculate on what Arya is not (a girl).

And 11-year-old girls get crushes all the time. Just ask the guys in One Direction.

Also, she is not an Amazon and doesn't live in the jungle. She was eating bugs long before the march to Harrenhall.

None of this is proof, mind you, just available evidence and context.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Also, she is not an Amazon and doesn't live in the jungle. She was eating bugs long before the march to Harrenhall.

Wait, what? Since when is eating bugs is a boyish thing?

My man will throw up at the idea of eating locusts. Is he a girl? Has he been lieing to me all this time?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Wait, what? Since when is eating bugs is a boyish thing?

My man will throw up at the idea of eating locusts. Is he a girl? Has he been lieing to me all this time?

That's certainly one possibility. But maybe it works the other way around: if you (can/want) eat bugs, then you must have a penis (for some reason). It's all very logical, after a fashion.

[John Suburbs]

Wait, what? Since when is eating bugs is a boyish thing?

My man will throw up at the idea of eating locusts. Is he a girl? Has he been lieing to me all this time?

Not proof, just "evidence."