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Heresy 128


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That's inaccurate,we don't know that only that their weapons are not made from ordinary ice and again conceptually it doesn't make sense....I have to laugh a bit,but

It's inaccurate to say it's my opinion that they're swords are made of the same substance as they are? How is stating that as my opinion inaccurate?

TOJ why would you make a weapon that has the exact same weakness you have? I mean really? No one makes a weapon that is weaker than themselves or as weak as they are. It doesn't happen like that, it would be crazy to make a weapon that's vulnerable to the thing that "kills you".

Last time I checked, the other's swords ripped through Sir Waymar Royce and his metal armor like a hot knife through butter. So if you're going to fight the others in close proximity, you're going to need a way to kill/hurt them (obsidian kills them as apparently does dragonsteel, and "fire dismays them"), so a flaming sword such as Lightbringer that might be made of "dragonsteel" or some equivalent substance would seem to be the best possible weapon against them for close proximity combat, and armor made of obsidian might prevent their swords from penetrating.

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

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It's inaccurate to say it's my opinion that they're swords are made of the same substance as they are? How is stating that as my opinion inaccurate?

Last time I checked, the other's swords ripped through Sir Waymar Royce and his metal armor like a hot knife through butter. So if you're going to fight the others in close proximity, you're going to need a way to kill/hurt them (obsidian kills them as apparently does dragonsteel, and "fire dismays them"), so a flaming sword such as Lightbringer that might be made of "dragonsteel" or some equivalent substance would seem to be the best possible weapon against them for close proximity combat, and armor made of obsidian might prevent their swords from penetrating.

Ser Waymar's sword was Castle forged steel not Valyrian steel if i remember correctly....and we don't know if Valyrian steel does anything to them Jon and Sam "assumed" that the annals were speaking of Valyrian steal when it spoke of "Dragonsteel" which in itself seems odd for obvious reasons.

Secondly,i respect your "opinion" but again why would the wws create their swords to be vulnerable to Obsidian the very thing they themselves are vulnerable too? You still haven't answered that,its conceptually problematic.Your opinion isn't inaccurate, its your opinion( i don't even know why the arguement about opinion is even relevent). I'm just saying for the sake of a debate logically it doesn't jive.

Next,given Ser Pudles annoyed knocking away of Grenn's torch i'm not quick to say they are "dismayed" by fire.

Lastly, Obsidian armour would only serve as a defense,unless Jon hugs it or something.Which goes back to my inital query on why one would make a sword that is vulnerable to the substance you yourself are vulnerable to?

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[quote name="wolfmaid7" post="

Lastly, Obsidian armour would only serve as a defense,unless Jon hugs it or something.Which goes back to my inital query on why one would make a sword that is vulnerable to the substance you yourself are vulnerable to?

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It's an interesting topic in that ser Waymers sword is indeed castle forged steel but I'm also going to assume that his armour is also castle forged steel. Neither proved any use against the swords ( whatever they are made of) of the WWs. If we use ser Waymers kit as an example then it could be possible that whatever their swords are made of could also be used for the WWs armour also. Now we know that obsidian is effective in neutralising wws so I think it is a possibility that obsidian armour may be effective against whatever it is that the wws swords are made of. Clear as mud .. No???

I also read the ser puddles knocking away Grenns torch as more of a confirmation that they are not comfortable with fire being around which then makes sense in johns dream that he would have an obsidian sword on fire as wws aren't keen on both( with the added bonus that fire kills wights)

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Looking at this conversation it does bring to mind the Ancient Egyptian practice of "Retainer Sacrifice" where the Ancient Kings of Egypt would bury their servants with them so they would be theirs also in the afterlife.

Good suggestion! It really seems like the Starks want to keep the direwolves close. I'm still wondering what the purpose of them rising again would be.

It's inaccurate to say it's my opinion that they're swords are made of the same substance as they are? How is stating that as my opinion inaccurate?

Last time I checked, the other's swords ripped through Sir Waymar Royce and his metal armor like a hot knife through butter. So if you're going to fight the others in close proximity, you're going to need a way to kill/hurt them (obsidian kills them as apparently does dragonsteel, and "fire dismays them"), so a flaming sword such as Lightbringer that might be made of "dragonsteel" or some equivalent substance would seem to be the best possible weapon against them for close proximity combat, and armor made of obsidian might prevent their swords from penetrating.

Hmm, a sword made of ice might be effective against another one made of ice, it's just we don't see Others fighting Others. Lightbringer, or something like Dawn might be effective. Castle-forged steel just shatters, it gets so cold that it becomes brittle.

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Valerian steel is spoken of as spell forged steel. It doesn't say what spells are used, but the Wall was built using spells as well. If all the spells do is strengthen nearby magic and/or weaken the Others then they would be, in theory, able to receive more damage near the wall.

Damascus steel world be a real world equivalent to valerian steel. Forging technique made for stronger carbon bonds and even had the waves shown in the book. Was stronger and more flexible than other steel forged in the same time frame.

One option as to why obsidian would possibly work is in a scale mail set up. The Others swords may be made of a crystalline set up. If the Others are able to craft using there own magic then weapons they make would have somewhat the same failure rate as there own armour.

In the first sword fight shown between Royce and a Other, Royce's sword held up for a time before being cut through. If a others sword magic losses strength at the wall while at the same time spell forged steel gets stronger, the playing field should be levelled.

Also frozen fire scale mail, TM pending, with a underling of NW armour should level the playing field more so.

As to fire, it has be proven that if it's to cold even a fire will got out. While the WW, undead types, fire kills them.

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It's an interesting topic in that ser Waymers sword is indeed castle forged steel but I'm also going to assume that his armour is also castle forged steel. Neither proved any use against the swords ( whatever they are made of) of the WWs. If we use ser Waymers kit as an example then it could be possible that whatever their swords are made of could also be used for the WWs armour also. Now we know that obsidian is effective in neutralising wws so I think it is a possibility that obsidian armour may be effective against whatever it is that the wws swords are made of. Clear as mud .. No???

I also read the ser puddles knocking away Grenns torch as more of a confirmation that they are not comfortable with fire being around which then makes sense in johns dream that he would have an obsidian sword on fire as wws aren't keen on both( with the added bonus that fire kills wights)

I agree that obsidian kills wws, but we have GRRM's statement that their swords are not made with regular ice, not that the swords are made from exactly the same thing as the wws.Which would be a problem, as I said before you are going to make your weapons with the same weakness you yourself have.That's illogical.

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I believe it's called foreshadowing...

He's also grasping a flaming sword, and we've seen several references to flaming swords, including Stannis's cheap imitation that doesn't give off any heat, and Thoros and Beric's flaming swords. Not to mention the lengend of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer.

Obsidian is clearly the counter to White Walkers, so making weapons out of it is obvious, but armor is just as practical if they are your enemy.

Don't forget that's a dream flaming sword. Jaime and brienne also get flaming swords in his dream, the flame is connected to his soul / life. Also useful for fighting ghosts. Ghosts in the underworld.
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Valerian steel is spoken of as spell forged steel. It doesn't say what spells are used, but the Wall was built using spells as well. If all the spells do is strengthen nearby magic and/or weaken the Others then they would be, in theory, able to receive more damage near the wall.

Damascus steel world be a real world equivalent to valerian steel. Forging technique made for stronger carbon bonds and even had the waves shown in the book. Was stronger and more flexible than other steel forged in the same time frame.

One option as to why obsidian would possibly work is in a scale mail set up. The Others swords may be made of a crystalline set up. If the Others are able to craft using there own magic then weapons they make would have somewhat the same failure rate as there own armour.

In the first sword fight shown between Royce and a Other, Royce's sword held up for a time before being cut through. If a others sword magic losses strength at the wall while at the same time spell forged steel gets stronger, the playing field should be levelled.

Also frozen fire scale mail, TM pending, with a underling of NW armour should level the playing field more so.

As to fire, it has be proven that if it's to cold even a fire will got out. While the WW, undead types, fire kills them.

To reiterate the arguement is about an opnionated Obsidian Armor that would supposedly prohibit a wws sword ( if it was constructed with the same vulnerabiity as the wws themselves to which i ask why?) from penetrating. Lets say that's true, Obsidian is glass and extremly brittle that shatters from the force of a blow,so all it takes is a solid hit with enough force and bye bye armor.It would have to be thin and somehow malleable and be able to facilitate fluid movement for fighting.....There is so much wrong with this.

As to fire we are absolutely sure that Grenn's torch didn't go out until the the WWs sword put it out,wights en masse will snuff out fires like that its so cold.

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Perhaps even both :) It's also possible they will have a child together. Dany's "womb quickening again" is too big of a Chekhov's Gun not to go off at some point.

It's already gone off. This is an eleven act play, apparently, so it went off well before the last act. Daenerys had a miscarriage after eating the poison berries in the Dothraki Sea at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Hidzahr and/or Fabio Naharis would be so disappointed to learn of it. Her womb has quickened, so something big should be coming. However, she has to spend the next book hanging with her buddies in the Dothraki hordes.

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On a different level it was interesting to note the disappointment in another place that the new characters do not include R+L and that the excitement over a film location featuring a tower was misplaced.

Nonsense. It is all part of a secret plan. They will keep the casting of Rhaegar and Lyanna secret from the fans and exclude them from all of the promotional material. Then, at the end of season 5 when Kevin Spacey carries the actress playing Lyanna into the tower, you will be ASTOUNDED.

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http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Shaw: Is there a certain reason why they named obsidian "dragonglass" or why you did that?

Martin: Yes, there is a reason.

Shaw: Are dragons somehow the mortal enemy of the Others?

Martin: There are a lot of legends, and you'll be hearing more about them in the future books, but a lot of stuff about Others and about dragons maybe isn't completely understood by the people of the present. Obsidian is of course volcanic glass; it's formed by immense heat and pressure down in the earth. The dragons themselves are creatures of intense heat.

Shaw: Do you know what substance an Other sword is made from.

Martin: Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it. ______________________________________________

This may be of relevance to last night's discussion.

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Oh, yeah, Mel really wants to get in Jon's wolf pants. The significance is finally dawning on me: ice armor, ice sword (WW) Black Ice armor, fire sword (Jon).

I can see Melisandre pulling a Jenny Fields on Jon and making a J.S. Garp while Jon is outside of his body on other business, i.e. in Ghost.

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Martin: Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.

I'm glad you just quoted this part. There was a discussion earlier in the thread about whether the Wall stops the Others. I doubt that the Wall stops the Others from passing because I think that one of the fantastic things that we can't imagine is that the Others constructed the Wall. Therefore, unless they placed magic spells on the Wall to prevent their own passage, then I doubt that the Wall would stop them. Rather than stop the Others, the Wall marks a boundary, one that the Others have previously decided not to cross, except during the Long Night.

Now the wights may be a different matter.

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I agree that obsidian kills wws, but we have GRRM's statement that their swords are not made with regular ice, not that the swords are made from exactly the same thing as the wws.Which would be a problem, as I said before you are going to make your weapons with the same weakness you yourself have.That's illogical.

Im not talking about WWs wearing obsidian armour, I'm talking about john in his dream wearing obsidian armour with an obsidian sword. just as ser waymer wore steel armour and has a steel sword and the wws have an ice sword and ice armour. We know the wws sword will cut and/or shatter steel but we do not know what happens when the wws sword comes into contact with obsidian, maybe their sword shatters ala steel with an ice sword. As we do not know it remains a possibility that John was wearing obsidian armour? From the prologue we see the wws eyeing up ser waymers sword before they progress I suggest that they were trying to make out whether his sword was made of obsidian.

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Im not talking about WWs wearing obsidian armour, I'm talking about john in his dream wearing obsidian armour with an obsidian sword. just as ser waymer wore steel armour and has a steel sword and the wws have an ice sword and ice armour. We know the wws sword will cut and/or shatter steel but we do not know what happens when the wws sword comes into contact with obsidian, maybe their sword shatters ala steel with an ice sword. As we do not know it remains a possibility that John was wearing obsidian armour? From the prologue we see the wws eyeing up ser waymers sword before they progress I suggest that they were trying to make out whether his sword was made of obsidian.

Yeah I know you were talking about Jon wearing Obsidian armour.My points were against that based on what TOJ said.

At the end of the day Obsidian is glass, brittle static glass that I don't think will withstand a force ful blow. No penetration just a hit.

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Im not talking about WWs wearing obsidian armour, I'm talking about john in his dream wearing obsidian armour with an obsidian sword. just as ser waymer wore steel armour and has a steel sword and the wws have an ice sword and ice armour. We know the wws sword will cut and/or shatter steel but we do not know what happens when the wws sword comes into contact with obsidian, maybe their sword shatters ala steel with an ice sword. As we do not know it remains a possibility that John was wearing obsidian armour? From the prologue we see the wws eyeing up ser waymers sword before they progress I suggest that they were trying to make out whether his sword was made of obsidian.

Nah, Jon saw himself wearing armour of black ice. Simple as that. Remember that when he had that dream he had already been led to the dragonglass cache below the Fist and he already knew what it could do. If he had been wearing dragonglass armour in his dream he would have known it was dragonglass, not ice.

As I said earlier in a dream as full as symbolism as that one its futile trying to rationalise it. He saw himself armoured in ice because that's where he's headed even if kicking and screaming.

As to Ser Waymar, again no. The First Walker was just sizing him up before making his move. Obsidian/Dragonglass is too brittle to make a sword. The stuff Jon found at the Fist was typical in being arrowheads and daggers/spearheads, nothing bigger. For that you need to look at the Pre-Columbian Americans and their flat wooden clubs with pieces of obsidian set into the edge.

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Water, H2O is a very, very unique molecule… this is primarily due to it's polarity & bonding angle, I will not get more specific than that. Water, can exists in 4 phases (plasma, gas, liquid & solid), just like all other substances known to man. However, water is once again unique in that in it's pure form it is capable of forming multiple different forms of it's solid state. Ice is the only one that exists on earth, but it is theorized that under intense pressure, water can form other substances. It is thought that the Jupiter's core is made from one of these forms of water & 'water substance' is responsible for Jupiter's HUGE magnetic shield (which prevents the solar wind from blowing away it's atmosphere - the earth has an iron core that serves the same purpose on a much smaller scale)...



So the point is that water can form at least two, possibly more solid substances each with radically different properties (Ice = non-magnetic; core of Jupiter = highly-magnetic)… Perhaps GRRM is aware of this fact...


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Although I think that the armour in Jon's dream is likely "just" ice, which is to say that "ice" is symbolically charged (and BC explains this nicely just above), I don't think TToJ deserves so much ridicule for suggesting "frozen fire" as another layer of dream possibility here. To say that it's ridiculous that the WWs' weapons would be vulnerable to the same substance as their armour seems odd; after all, humans make their weapons and their armour both of steel. Although obsidian armour seems impractical, which is to say that I don't think that this dream is telling Jon to make armour of obsidian, there's something to the fact that Jon sees black ice where Dany's trident vision includes simply ice.


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Random, off-topic comment/question #1... What's going on with the number 19?


  • There are 19 dragon skulls at the Red Keep
  • Craster had 19 wives
  • There are 19 forts along the south side of the Wall

Is it "just" the magic number of the metonic cycle? Is it related to Brighid, and the ongoing triple goddess motif - ? Is there more of an in-story connection to be made?





(Advisory: more random, off-topic questions to come. I've got a few of these things that I keep circling back to, and I've decided to share the bewilderment.)


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