Heresy 128

[Black Crow]

On the symbolic side, I think it's more an indication that he'll need to use his Ice (Stark) lineage, and his Targaryen (fire) lineage to protect the realms from the Others, but that struggle will cost him all the things he loves.

With that said, I just think there's a dual meaning, and that perhaps Bran/Bloodraven are dropping thoughts into his dreams to help him in the upcoming battle.

The bit about his enemies scurrying up the wall like spiders (ice spiders anyone?) seems like a pretty big clue as well.

That would be the traditional explanation, but as you've probably noticed some of us in these here parts thinks its a lot more complicated than that; and that things are not what they seem, with old allegiances coming into play - as Qhorin Halfhand recognised..

[Armstark]

ice also has a hot characteristic.It burns.

thanks!

[Amoracchius]

I can answer this:

Basically, the idea is a red herring that Lyanna ever ran off with Rhaegar to escape an arranged marriage, as GRRM pointed out in an interview, this never happened. So we should consider whether or not Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar or if it never happened.

The alternative is that Mance stole the Lord of Winterfell's daughter (stealing a women used in this manner in the wildling sense) and hid with her in the crypts, as in the tale of Bael the Bard. Lyanna therefore never left Winterfell, and Ned found her in the crypts dieing from complications from the birth. This is also why Jon Snow was already in Winterfell before Catelyn arrived at Winterfell with Robb Stark, shockingly, he didn't teleport there from the Tower of Joy, rather, he was always there.

So why was Rhaegar blamed? Well Brandon was a notorious hot head, when Lyanna went missing he immediately blamed Rhaegar and dashed off to King's Landing, triggering the war.

Why did he blame Rhaegar? It's entirely possible that after the Harrenhall tourney, Rhaegar visited the north, and then left. If Lyanna went missing around the same time, it's probable Brandon would put two and two together and get five and blame Rhaegar.

Look at the distance from Winterfell to the Tower of Joy. Both are landlocked, they're not taking ships, they're not flying on dragons. It seems like the North started the whole war based on Brandon's mistaken assumptions.

this also begs the question of who Mance Raydar is, and mayhaps he's just a wildling, mayhaps he's an offshoot of the Blackfyre line or an offshoot of Bloodraven, but perhaps it doesn't matter, other than that he is Jon Snow's father, not Rhaegar Targaryen. Personally, I would find it wonderful and delightful if Jon had no Targaryen blood, and Mance was just some wildling of no especial important repute. ;)

As for how Lyanna fell for Mance--well, if you remember Meera Reed's story she was going to preface it by explaining there was a tournament of singers... but Bran made her skip over that potentially crucial detail. If Lyanna had a brief infatuation with a singer (and a tourney like that might attract Mance's attention) she may well have wanted to sneak off and fuck him whenever she got the chance. ;)

Thanks for explaining, Lockesnow.

I guess I still don't see how Mance gets involved with the theory. Even if I accept that Lyanna never left Winterfell and Rhaegar was falsely accused, I don't get why the alternative has to involve Mance. I know he has a thing for Bael the Bard, but that hardly qualifies as evidence that he replicated everything in the story down to the last detail.

It seems to me that if Lyanna hid in Winterfell's crypts the whole time, and if Jon is her son, and if she died in childbirth after Ned's return from the war (which lasted "close to a year"), then the candidates for Jon's father would be anyone capable of getting into the crypts during that time period. That group could include Mance, if we use some creative speculation, but the the group is certainly larger than just Mance.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

If we really want to get technical about this obsidian, being a glass is actually translucent and only appears black when thick enough to absorb light. A blade or arrowhead will appear black in the centre [or whatever other "colour" is in it] and transparent along the sharp edges. Scale armour thick enough to appear black would be so heavy as to make steel feel like a wisp of silk.

I'm sure there's a thickness of obsidian in there somewhere that is slightly translucent (thus not too thick) with a black hue (thus not too thin), which would appear to look a lot like black ice. I would also suspect that Jon hasn't seen Obsidian in such a form, and may not have recognized it as anything other than ice with a black looking hue.

Something like this:

http://creekbed.org/collection/images/davis-obsidean.jpg

Or this:

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/82046/124672387/stock-photo-translucent-obsidian-arrowhead-isolated-on-white-background-124672387.jpg

Or these:

http://bcartifacts.com/shop/tm16-translucent-obsidian-windust-dart/#

[TheTowerOfJoy]

That would be the traditional explanation, but as you've probably noticed some of us in these here parts thinks its a lot more complicated than that; and that things are not what they seem, with old allegiances coming into play - as Qhorin Halfhand recognised..

So it's more complicated, but it only has the meaning that supports your own personal theory, gotcha.

[Black Crow]

I stick by Frey Family Re-union's analysis of the dream; trying to interpret Jon as wearing obsidian armour is a blind alley unsupported by the text. And as for my "own personal theory" that's so, all of our theories here are personal but this is one which broadly commands far more support in these here parts than the traditional one which you outlined earlier, which is why some of us consider ourselves heretics.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I stick by Frey Family Re-union's analysis of the dream; trying to interpret Jon as wearing obsidian armour is a blind alley unsupported by the text. And as for my "own personal theory" that's so, all of our theories here are personal but this is one which broadly commands far more support in these here parts than the traditional one which you outlined earlier, which is why some of us consider ourselves heretics.

You've dismissed my concept of the formation of white walkers because it was too complicated, and now you are insisting that the dream must be more complicated than my interpretation, despite the fact that we've seen specific information passed through dreams throughout the series.

It seems to me you want free discussion as long as it agrees with your own personal belief about where the series is headed, but as soon as someone comes up with an original thought that doesn't fit your concept, then said person or their idea is ridiculed and/or shouted down until they fall back in line agreeing with your interpretations.

It doesn't appear to me that you want free discussion as much as you want a sounding board where your own ideas can get fleshed out further by those that agree with you. In reality, this thread is not so different in that regard from the R+L=J thread that is so often ridiculed, despite your claims to the contrary.

[Melifeather]

Blank responses not withstanding, I still don't understand what you were getting at. The more you discuss R+L=J, the more convinced you become that Lyanna never left Winterfell at all and Mance was somehow involved? I'm sorry if my response came across as flip, but I was and am honestly confused by that statement. Could you please explain? I'm interested in hearing your theory.

EDIT: Sorry about the formatting. I don't know what happened with the quote levels.

Sorry. I haven't had as much time as I'd like to monitor this thread, and I am at work so I don't have all my quotes handy, so we'll have to go on memory here.

I find it curious that many swallow Ned's fever dream regarding the Tower of Joy hook, line and sinker as actual events. He does think to himself that it's a familiar dream, but it isn't clear if it's something remembered or a mish-mash of thoughts that Ned had been wondering about back during the Rebellion.

I had posted my theories before more than once and even inserted evidence regarding the nature of dreams and how it's our brain's way of sorting through information and trying to make sense of assorted events, and how a whole day can get jumbled into one dream. Especially significant events of the type that would make an memorable impression.

I think Ned was wondering where the three Kingsguard were during the Rebellion because he didn't find them in any of the expected places. He also knows how this all ends with his discovery of Lyanna, so that would explain her calling out to him. Ned did go south to wrap up the Rebellion and if he had known Lyanna's whereabouts, he would have gone directly there and I think that he felt he had wasted precious time. All these thoughts got jumbled together into a dream, and I seriously doubt any of it actually happened.

Ygritte told Jon the story of Bael the Bard to explain how they could be related and I think she was telling him the actual story of his conception. She used the name Bael, but I think she knew Mance was Jon's father but it's not her truth to tell. She kept telling Jon that she knew Mance would take him, and Qhorin Halfhand knew the story as well. When Jon reported to Qhorin that Ygritte had told him a story of how they were related, he knew which story it was right away. Jon even compares himself to Mance after hearing Qhorin's description of him saying something along the lines of, "no more than me".

Jon and Mance have a discussion where Mance says he's seen Jon before as a child. Why would Mance even take a passing interest in a bastard boy at Winterfell unless he was his father? Why would Mance submit himself to Melisandre's plans to get himself to Winterfell unless he wanted to do something for Jon? I realize that he avoided burning, but I think he agreed fairly quickly as it suited his plans.

And lastly, the actor that plays Theon claims that GRRM told him who Jon's parents were and said it was a bit of a Star Wars situation. In Star Wars Luke finds out that Darth Vader is his father, and isn't it ironic that Mance Rayder has a similar sounding name?

[Urrax2]

...And lastly, the actor that plays Theon claims that GRRM told him who Jon's parents were and said it was a bit of a Star Wars situation. In Star Wars Luke finds out that Darth Vader is his father, and isn't it ironic that Mance Rayder has a similar sounding name?

I don't think I would rely too much on this one.

[wolfmaid7]

I would like to add that Jon wasn't having an out of body dream experiance where he was watching himself ; he was covered in the bloody thing and would know the difference between ice and Obsidian. Therefore,

TOJ when you said " I would also suspect that Jon hasn't seen Obsidian in such a form, and may not have recognized it as anything other than ice with a black looking hue."

you are incorrect because:

"He saw a dozen knives.leaf-shaped spearheads,numerous arrowheads feather light and shiny black,hiltless(ACOK,PG,517).

Jon inspecting the cache found by Ghost.

The dude was covered in ice reflecting his blacks.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I would like to add that Jon wasn't having an out of body dream experiance where he was watching himself ; he was covered in the bloody thing and would know the difference between ice and Obsidian. Therefore,

TOJ when you said " I would also suspect that Jon hasn't seen Obsidian in such a form, and may not have recognized it as anything other than ice with a black looking hue."

you are incorrect because:

"He saw a dozen knives.leaf-shaped spearheads,numerous arrowheads feather light and shiny black,hiltless(ACOK,PG,517).

Jon inspecting the cache found by Ghost.

The dude was covered in ice reflecting his blacks.

Feather light doesn't sound like armor made from it would be as impossibly heavy as implied up thread.

But seeing it in arrowheads and seeing it in a suit of armor would be two different things. And "shiny black" sounds an awful lot like "black ice" to me.

[Melifeather]

I don't think I would rely too much on this one.

I'll also offer an alternative explanation for the events at the tower of joy. Could the child being protected be Prince Aegon rather than Jon? Tyrion is told that Prince Aegon was switched with another child. Perhaps that is what Rhaegar was doing in the south. He and the Kingsguard took Aegon to Dorne. After Ned arrives, and kills (or maybe doesn't kill) the 3 Kingsguard, that's when Ashara Dayne is enlisted for help. She probably was taking care of the child anyway and faked her suicide. Wouldn't this story be more logical if it were about Aegon?

edited to add: and, wasn't Ashara Elia's handmaiden?

[Melifeather]

I can answer this:

Basically, the idea is a red herring that Lyanna ever ran off with Rhaegar to escape an arranged marriage, as GRRM pointed out in an interview, this never happened. So we should consider whether or not Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar or if it never happened.

The alternative is that Mance stole the Lord of Winterfell's daughter (stealing a women used in this manner in the wildling sense) and hid with her in the crypts, as in the tale of Bael the Bard. Lyanna therefore never left Winterfell, and Ned found her in the crypts dieing from complications from the birth. This is also why Jon Snow was already in Winterfell before Catelyn arrived at Winterfell with Robb Stark, shockingly, he didn't teleport there from the Tower of Joy, rather, he was always there.

So why was Rhaegar blamed? Well Brandon was a notorious hot head, when Lyanna went missing he immediately blamed Rhaegar and dashed off to King's Landing, triggering the war.

Why did he blame Rhaegar? It's entirely possible that after the Harrenhall tourney, Rhaegar visited the north, and then left. If Lyanna went missing around the same time, it's probable Brandon would put two and two together and get five and blame Rhaegar.

Look at the distance from Winterfell to the Tower of Joy. Both are landlocked, they're not taking ships, they're not flying on dragons. It seems like the North started the whole war based on Brandon's mistaken assumptions.

this also begs the question of who Mance Raydar is, and mayhaps he's just a wildling, mayhaps he's an offshoot of the Blackfyre line or an offshoot of Bloodraven, but perhaps it doesn't matter, other than that he is Jon Snow's father, not Rhaegar Targaryen. Personally, I would find it wonderful and delightful if Jon had no Targaryen blood, and Mance was just some wildling of no especial important repute. ;)

As for how Lyanna fell for Mance--well, if you remember Meera Reed's story she was going to preface it by explaining there was a tournament of singers... but Bran made her skip over that potentially crucial detail. If Lyanna had a brief infatuation with a singer (and a tourney like that might attract Mance's attention) she may well have wanted to sneak off and fuck him whenever she got the chance. ;)

Thank you for this. You've included details that I had left out, but basically agree with.

I think the Lyanna and Mance romance was already established at the time of the tourney at Harrenhal, even if Jon wasn't yet conceived. The sniffling over Rhaegar's song may have simply reminded her of Mance and her upcoming betrothal to Robert. She may have sniffled because she fully intended to marry Robert and was sad because Rhaegar's song reminded her of Mance. But, if Lyanna were to discover herself pregnant, that may have been enough motivation to hide out in the crypts.

[wolfmaid7]

Feather light doesn't sound like armor made from it would be as impossibly heavy as implied up thread.

But seeing it in arrowheads and seeing it in a suit of armor would be two different things. And "shiny black" sounds an awful lot like "black ice" to me.

:frown5: I'm not even going too.........as you think.

[lokisnow]

I'll also offer an alternative explanation for the events at the tower of joy. Could the child being protected be Prince Aegon rather than Jon? Tyrion is told that Prince Aegon was switched with another child. Perhaps that is what Rhaegar was doing in the south. He took his son and Kingsguard to take Aegon to Dorne. After Ned arrives, and kills (or maybe doesn't kill) the 3 Kingsguard, that's when Ashara Dayne is enlisted for help. She probably was taking care of the child anyway and faked her suicide. Wouldn't this story be more logical if it were about Aegon?

edited to add: and, wasn't Ashara Elia's handmaiden?

Yes to all the above. I do think that Aegon was switched early and taken to Dorne and the Tower of Joy.

***

Also, look at what the show casting is suggesting about season 5:

The entirety of the Rhoyner subplot is being cut. Tyrion will wind up in Pentos and then he'll travel with Illyrio and Varys, heading for Dany. Jorah still probably kidnaps Tyrion at some point. Tyrion and Jorah probably absorbs some of Quentyns storyline and Tyrion convinces Jorah to free the dragons after Dany flies off.

But Aegon is pretty fucking crucial. They didn't cast Aegon though. They cast a pretty boy as Trystane who hasn't even been in the books, really.

My conclusion is that the role of Aegon has been folded into Trystane's role--and it is very possible/probable that Trystane will be revealed to be Aegon, secretly. It's equally possible that they will skip out on having a secret Aegon entirely--but I think the way that they emphasized Elia and her children in the Mountain and the Viper episode and all of last year suggests that they are keeping Aegon-in-hiding as in the books, only instead of hiding on the Rhoyne, he's been hiding as Trystane.

What they will probably drop is any pretense of (f)Aegon, but who knows, perhaps they will try to weave in the Blackfyre backstory with the combination of faegon and bloodraven entering the show.

In any event, I feel like that if Aegon was at the Tower of Joy, not Jon, and Eddard abetted in his rescue and hiding then it makes sense that the show would have Aegon still be in Dorne in hiding. The show has made mention many times that they try to collapse locations/sets because it's such a huge expense to have extra locations. If, ultimately, Aegon's faction joins forces with Dorne, it will make for much more economical storytelling on the show to have the two factions already be merged, because then they only have to cast and locate a single new faction.

Likewise Myrcella seems to be absorbing much of Arianne's role into her own. I was always surprised that they cast Myrcella and Rickon in season 1, because I thought they would be obvious cuts to make, they have almost no on screen role in major events, and are offscreen/MIA , but evidently they were important enough to pour money into early on for a second half of the series pay off. Now her role is being beefed up. If there isn't an Arianne/Aegon marriage, I imagine that Myrcella/Trystane marriage is going to supplant it.

in any event, that's a very longwinded way of saying Aegon has a Dorne connection. :-p

[Carllav]

We know nothing, but its a very reasonable interpretation of what we do know.

You know nothing Jon Snow.

Lol, I couldn't resist

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I'll also offer an alternative explanation for the events at the tower of joy. Could the child being protected be Prince Aegon rather than Jon? Tyrion is told that Prince Aegon was switched with another child. Perhaps that is what Rhaegar was doing in the south. He and the Kingsguard took Aegon to Dorne. After Ned arrives, and kills (or maybe doesn't kill) the 3 Kingsguard, that's when Ashara Dayne is enlisted for help. She probably was taking care of the child anyway and faked her suicide. Wouldn't this story be more logical if it were about Aegon?

edited to add: and, wasn't Ashara Elia's handmaiden?

.

Yes. That makes infinitely more sense than the idea that the KG was there to protect Lyanna or her child. In fact, I made almost the very argument recently in a separate conversation... though I don't think Rhaegar himself necessarily accompanied Aegon there.

.

[Melifeather]

.

Yes. That makes infinitely more sense than the idea that the KG was there to protect Lyanna or her child. In fact, I made almost the very argument recently in a separate conversation... though I don't think Rhaegar himself necessarily accompanied Aegon there.

.

I think the reason why we're running into resistance to this theory is due to the entrenched R+L=J culture on this forum. It's been discussed for so long people think it's a given. Hopefully someday we'll be credited as early adopters!

[wolfmaid7]

I think the reason why we're running into resistance to this theory is due to the entrenched R+L=J culture on this forum. It's been discussed for so long people think it's a given. Hopefully someday we'll be credited as early adopters!

So what is your theory on this Feather? Mance is Jon's Father and not Rheagar or Rheagar and Mance are one in the same and Jon's father? Could you repost your theory?

[Melifeather]

So what is your theory on this Feather? Mance is Jon's Father and not Rheagar or Rheagar and Mance are one in the same and Jon's father? Could you repost your theory?

Pretty much everything has been listed on this page. Just read up thread.