Heresy 128

[alienarea]

Indeed, and a lot of what he said wasn't relevant to inserting Jon into the Wildling host, or even to what they learned of that host through Jon's wolf dream. What's interesting is that he doesn't just send Stonesnake off to say "Zulus, Sir, fawsands of 'em", but warns that the Old Powers are wakening and the trees have eyes again, yet its not so long before that he was talking with Mormont himself about offing the Crowkiller and such-like with no mention of serious stuff - and nor do I recall his party coming across weirwoods, with or without eyes.

On a straightforward level there was no need to send Stonesnake off, he never made it through and might just as easily have been shot with an arrow at some point. So what's important here is that line about the Old Powers and the trees having eyes - and its a warning. Its not good.

Unless we see a body or a wight a character with an awesome name like Stonesnake is alive.

He's the John Rambo of Westeros.

[King of Winters]

I'm inclined to think that Theon will survive the series. He would be brought back to Pyke by his sister, who would use him to invalidate the previous Kingsmoot and then place him on the throne as her candidate. He would finally get to "rule" the Iron Islands, but his reign would be bittersweet because he would be unable to enjoy his previous occupations (archery and whoring), would spend his reign as a prematurely-aged sick man, and would be unable to have legitimate children (I wonder if his "royal bastard" from the Myraham will make a reappearance).

I see Theon as a survivor. He has survived so much already.

Yes, nearly everyone in the books wants Theon dead, even himself so he won't die. It's exactly what GRRM would do, keep someone who wants to die alive.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

Indeed, and a lot of what he said wasn't relevant to inserting Jon into the Wildling host, or even to what they learned of that host through Jon's wolf dream. What's interesting is that he doesn't just send Stonesnake off to say "Zulus, Sir, fawsands of 'em", but warns that the Old Powers are wakening and the trees have eyes again, yet its not so long before that he was talking with Mormont himself about offing the Crowkiller and such-like with no mention of serious stuff - and nor do I recall his party coming across weirwoods, with or without eyes.

On a straightforward level there was no need to send Stonesnake off, he never made it through and might just as easily have been shot with an arrow at some point. So what's important here is that line about the Old Powers and the trees having eyes - and its a warning. Its not good.

It's a very good point.

He seems to connect it all through Jon's obvious warging, yet we know at least one story of a warg who's been around quite awhile in Varamyr Six-Skins. Perhaps what triggered it all is that there was a Stark warging.

[The Free Folk]

1. Can anyone please offer why GRRM might have included this statement "Greenseers turned the trees into warriors" if it is not foreshadowing of some kind??? It certainly did not help make the case that Stannis & the Clanmen were well camouflaged...

As others have said above, I don't think this is foreshadowing anything but is rather an exaggerated story from the past. Part of the difficulty in analysing ASOIAF in my mind is that Martin does a fantastic job of blurring the lines between exaggerated mythos such as the above, descriptive imagery/metaphors (e.g. Weirwood leaves looking like hands) and foreshadowing so that when he does want to foreshadow something it is very subtle. But if we follow the logic from the quoted post, we start treating every bit of descriptive imagery as well as stories and myths of the ASOIAF world as foreshadowing of something to come, and the story quickly turns into a Harry Potter-like world with walking trees and big spiders and ghost grass taking over the world. It is quite a stretch in my mind to expect Martin to completely switch the feel of the story after 5 books into full-blown children's fantasy rather than a historical fiction wtih (as someone posted above) 'low magic' and low fantasy elements worked in.

[The Free Folk]

snip

I know there's lots of cosmological theories and explanations for the seasons, Long Night, magic, etc that I usually tend to ignore, but actually like this one a bit. However, I don't think we'll ever learn something like this in the books themselves for 2 reasons: one, since we learn everything through the POV characters in the books, we would need to get a character that suddenly fast forwarded to modern times and a more nuanced understanding of astrology, and two, I believe there's a quote from Martin somewhere about how we'll never get a scientific explanation of the seasons, the magic, etc? Martin, like his characters, seem perfectly content attributing these phenomena to 'magic' without requiring to understand its causes, whether they be cosmological or not. That being said, I wouldn't mind reading this theory if it gets fully drawn out, as it does have some interesting bits.

[Frey family reunion]

Missed your ETA on account of going to bed, but its interesting that we get two examples in relatively close proximity of islands in lakes. I know that such things do exist in the real world, but in my part of it they are frequently crannogs, hence perhaps the causeway leading to the one at Queenscrown.

That being said, given the association to a queen, I rather suspect that the original inspiration for it is Loch Leven castle - a simple tower house on an island in the loch, easily visible from the main road north and famous for Mary Queen of Scots having been imprisoned and escaped from there.

I'm glad you brought this comparison to my attention. I think that there is far more significance to Queenscrown then most believe. There is a reason Alysanne's story was brought up in two different points of view, and there is a reason that GRRM has her traveling sans husband through the North and up to the Wall.

There is a theory anyway that Mary Queen of Scots miscarried twins while imprisoned at Loch Leven castle. Apparently she may have claimed rape to cover up an adulteress affair. If so, this may dovetail with my theory that Alysanne may have had an affair at the Queenscrown and gave birth at Snowgate, while her husband was away. And it is from the descendants of her line that we have our stone dragons "sleeping" up north.

[Black Crow]

Hi, somewhat new to the forum so let me know if/where this may have been addressed before, yadda yadda...

I've been wondering about the long winter/night, the red comet, dragons, the WW, the arm of Dorn, the neck, Summerhall, and the source of magic. I have a bit of a theory, somewhat immature at the moment, that they are all connected...

Welcome to Heresy. Some of what you suggest has indeed been raised before here and on other threads but by and large it doesn't get much traction not because there's much wrong with the ideas, but rather as Free Folk suggests, because its too remote from the story actually being lived by our present characters.

Two points I will make though is that attractive though the idea is of the comet sprinkling magic pixie dust on the land, we've looked at this in the past and every time concluded that the timing is off and that things started happening long before the comet hove in view. Secondly, GRRM has said that the dodgy seasons have a magical cause rather than a physical one, like an unstable eliptical orbit. That wouldn't rule out the magic pixie dust starting this off, but it would almost certainly rule out a resolution of it.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Finally caught back up...

1) Someone brought up the CoTF "greenseers" in the Cave of Skulls, several pages back and I'll point out again, that all Singers (ie every single Child of the Forest) plugs into the weirnet before they die, not just Greenseers. They use it to record their memories, and to "live a thousand lives" like a person reading a book. So I would state that these were merely singers who are dieing in that cave they found, not Greenseers.

I can go pull the text from the book again if I need to but Leaf and Jojen explicitly say that all Singers "go down into the wood" when they die, not just Greenseers.

2) As for the comet possibly smashing into a moon and breaking it open, that's a point I've made before. And that while BC is certainly right that we're told that the cause of the out of whack seasons is a magical, not natural one, that doesn't preclude magic being used to make the comet smash the moon. Perhaps this event is what smashed the Arm of Dorne or caused the Hammer of waters (or both). Greenseers using magic to cause the comet to break off a piece of the moon making it smash into the Arm or hit the water causing a tsunami that floods the neck certainly seem like possibilities. Also, such an event could have possibly knocked the entire planet off it's axis, and thus why the seasons are the way they are. So therefore a "magical" event causing the seasons to get out of whack. Magic is a sword without a hilt. Perhaps this is even what happened with the Doom, someone tried to wield the same power, and pulled down a chunk of the destroyed moon and it smashed into Valyria, causing the volcanoes to go nuclear.

3) I loved the comparison of the Undying to the Others. That was a great catch, as was the line by Patchface about the crows under the sea being as white as snow, drawing a comparison between the Night's Watch and the White Walkers. The Black/White dichotomy of the Night's Watch and the White Walkers is an interesting one as well.

4) The stuff about the "there must always be a Stark at the Wall" is something I've played with before. I like the idea of a Stark King of Winter ruling from the Night's Fort and a Stark King of Summer ruling from Winterfell.

5) The discussion about Craster being cursed was an interesting one to me. If he was the son of a certain Lord Commander, that would mean that said Lord Commander broke his vows to the Night's Watch, and we've discussed that you can't lie in front of a heart tree, and the possible connection between saying your vows before a Heart Tree (something that Bloodraven might have done based on his Northern heritage). He also did not serve until his death.

So could it be possible that Bloodraven's betrayal of his Night's Watch vows as Lord Commander was the trigger for the White Walkers? Craster being cursed as a result, and thus the reason he was turned away by the Night's Watch...

If Bloodraven is more of a sinister character like many of you think, and tied directly to the White Walkers, then perhaps it was his intention to wake them all along, and use them for his own purposes, perhaps to put a Targaryen descendent back on the Iron Throne?

[Black Crow]

Changing the subject a little I came across an aphorism today which I'm ashamed to say was new to me, about using fire to fight the Devil and that of course also appears as fighting fire with fire.

The point being the dichotomy of Ice and Fire may be misleading; that Ice not Fire may be necessary to defeat or neutralise the Ice and vice versa. This isn't inconsistent with what we've discussed before about the possibility of Jon Snow sorting out the Ice while Danaerys Targaryen needs to sort out the Fire, but it may also explain some of the hints of fire magic beyond the Wall - it may simply be defensive.

[wolfmaid7]

Changing the subject a little I came across an aphorism today which I'm ashamed to say was new to me, about using fire to fight the Devil and that of course also appears as fighting fire with fire.

The point being the dichotomy of Ice and Fire may be misleading; that Ice not Fire may be necessary to defeat or neutralise the Ice and vice versa. This isn't inconsistent with what we've discussed before about the possibility of Jon Snow sorting out the Ice while Danaerys Targaryen needs to sort out the Fire, but it may also explain some of the hints of fire magic beyond the Wall - it may simply be defensive.

Lol BC.....But continuing with this i think there are other hints in addition to what we already gathered that is is the case and by this i mean the overlapping of the elemental meaning.Fire and ice can mimic the other. I will point out Jojen's statement about "if ice can burn " we've seen this description when it comes to the eyes of the WWs as burning.

Fire can also in effect keep you,and i will look at some of Mel's quotes and prayers.I remeber some but i want to make sure of the wording.

[Arya Havinfun]

Finally caught back up...

1) Someone brought up the CoTF "greenseers" in the Cave of Skulls, several pages back and I'll point out again, that all Singers (ie every single Child of the Forest) plugs into the weirnet before they die, not just Greenseers. They use it to record their memories, and to "live a thousand lives" like a person reading a book. So I would state that these were merely singers who are dieing in that cave they found, not Greenseers.

I can go pull the text from the book again if I need to but Leaf and Jojen explicitly say that all Singers "go down into the wood" when they die, not just Greenseers.

Here’s the quote:

The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. [ADwD, p.495]

2) As for the comet possibly smashing into a moon and breaking it open, that's a point I've made before. And that while BC is certainly right that we're told that the cause of the out of whack seasons is a magical, not natural one, that doesn't preclude magic being used to make the comet smash the moon. Perhaps this event is what smashed the Arm of Dorne or caused the Hammer of waters (or both). Greenseers using magic to cause the comet to break off a piece of the moon making it smash into the Arm or hit the water causing a tsunami that floods the neck certainly seem like possibilities. Also, such an event could have possibly knocked the entire planet off it's axis, and thus why the seasons are the way they are. So therefore a "magical" event causing the seasons to get out of whack. Magic is a sword without a hilt. Perhaps this is even what happened with the Doom, someone tried to wield the same power, and pulled down a chunk of the destroyed moon and it smashed into Valyria, causing the volcanoes to go nuclear.

The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. [ADwD, p.491]

Since they are primarily earth magicians, it seems more likely that the CotF might shift tectonic plates to generate earthquakes, volcano eruptions, and tsunamis, rather than smashing moons or plucking comets from the skies.

3) I loved the comparison of the Undying to the Others. That was a great catch, as was the line by Patchface about the crows under the sea being as white as snow, drawing a comparison between the Night's Watch and the White Walkers. The Black/White dichotomy of the Night's Watch and the White Walkers is an interesting one as well.

4) The stuff about the "there must always be a Stark at the Wall" is something I've played with before. I like the idea of a Stark King of Winter ruling from the Night's Fort and a Stark King of Summer ruling from Winterfell.

5) The discussion about Craster being cursed was an interesting one to me. If he was the son of a certain Lord Commander, that would mean that said Lord Commander broke his vows to the Night's Watch, and we've discussed that you can't lie in front of a heart tree, and the possible connection between saying your vows before a Heart Tree (something that Bloodraven might have done based on his Northern heritage). He also did not serve until his death.

So could it be possible that Bloodraven's betrayal of his Night's Watch vows as Lord Commander was the trigger for the White Walkers? Craster being cursed as a result, and thus the reason he was turned away by the Night's Watch...

If Bloodraven is more of a sinister character like many of you think, and tied directly to the White Walkers, then perhaps it was his intention to wake them all along, and use them for his own purposes, perhaps to put a Targaryen descendent back on the Iron Throne?

This part I don’t quite agree with. Would BloodRaven be allowed to take up residence in a weirwood if he was an oathbreaker or a criminal from the standpoint of the Old Gods/CotF/TWStSoE? I don’t think so, especially since it does seem that the weirwoods do pay attention to which NW personnel swear their oaths in front of them. I would expect that the Iron Throne is totally irrelevant to BloodRaven and the Singers at this point, and that only the balance of the Earth matters to them, i.e., trying to deal with the emerging Ice/Fire crisis.

ETA: volcanoes

[Black Crow]

... Would BloodRaven be allowed to take up residence in a weirwood if he was an oathbreaker or a criminal from the standpoint of the Old Gods/CotF/TWStSoE? I don’t think so, especially since it does seem that the weirwoods do pay attention to which NW personnel swear their oaths in front of them. I would expect that the Iron Throne is totally irrelevant to BloodRaven and the Singers at this point, and that only the balance of the Earth matters to them, i.e., trying to deal with the emerging Ice/Fire crisis.

I agree. Although GRRM has apparently said he thought it important that a Targaryen be involved, it may simply be as another red herring, ie; while most believe him to be a Targaryen loyalist and interpret his actions accordingly, its actually being a Blackwood which is more important - just as the popular R+L=J theory is interpreted as him being the son of Rhaegar and the "true" heir to the Iron Throne when the real issue is that he is a son of Winterfell.

[lokisnow]

I'm glad you brought this comparison to my attention. I think that there is far more significance to Queenscrown then most believe. There is a reason Alysanne's story was brought up in two different points of view, and there is a reason that GRRM has her traveling sans husband through the North and up to the Wall.

There is a theory anyway that Mary Queen of Scots miscarried twins while imprisoned at Loch Leven castle. Apparently she may have claimed rape to cover up an adulteress affair. If so, this may dovetail with my theory that Alysanne may have had an affair at the Queenscrown and gave birth at Snowgate, while her husband was away. And it is from the descendants of her line that we have our stone dragons "sleeping" up north.

If you're looking for secret Targaryen twins, you might better ask yourself why the description Oberyn gives of what Tyrion looked like when he was born so closely parallel the monstrosity that Dany birthed. Just what did Tywin throw down the well? ;)

Wouldn't it be funny if GRRM had the small folk rumors be right, and makes his readers think it's just dummy bigots being ignorant that caused them smallfolk dummies to spread rumors of a dragon like monster born to Tywin Lannister. And in getting his readers to think that, none of them wonder if maybe Tywin had a second set of twins. Perhaps there was a baby exactly like Oberyn's description, and the rumors faded away because Tyrion was so normal, other than his height, no one ever knew there was a Second child. One that Tywin got rid of?

[Arya Havinfun]

If you're looking for secret Targaryen twins, you might better ask yourself why the description Oberyn gives of what Tyrion looked like when he was born so closely parallel the monstrosity that Dany birthed. Just what did Tywin throw down the well? ;)

Wouldn't it be funny if GRRM had the small folk rumors be right, and makes his readers think it's just dummy bigots being ignorant that caused them smallfolk dummies to spread rumors of a dragon like monster born to Tywin Lannister. And in getting his readers to think that, none of them wonder if maybe Tywin had a second set of twins. Perhaps there was a baby exactly like Oberyn's description, and the rumors faded away because Tyrion was so normal, other than his height, no one ever knew there was a Second child. One that Tywin got rid of?

I do think that Joanna Lannister had a second set of twins, but one of them got absorbed, leaving Tyrion with mismatched eyes and beard hair, and a sense of having two heads. Tyrion is very possibly a human chimera, which is the result of a pregnancy of twins gone wildly wrong. But I doubt that Tywin had anything to do with it.

ETA: beard hair

[Frey family reunion]

If you're looking for secret Targaryen twins, you might better ask yourself why the description Oberyn gives of what Tyrion looked like when he was born so closely parallel the monstrosity that Dany birthed. Just what did Tywin throw down the well? ;)Wouldn't it be funny if GRRM had the small folk rumors be right, and makes his readers think it's just dummy bigots being ignorant that caused them smallfolk dummies to spread rumors of a dragon like monster born to Tywin Lannister. And in getting his readers to think that, none of them wonder if maybe Tywin had a second set of twins. Perhaps there was a baby exactly like Oberyn's description, and the rumors faded away because Tyrion was so normal, other than his height, no one ever knew there was a Second child. One that Tywin got rid of?

GRRM is definitely throwing out teasers about a targ connection with Tyrion, but it is so overt I tend to think it may be a misdirection on Martin's part. Speaking of Oberyn I do think that the Sandsnakes are daughters born from women with Targaryen bloodlines, which I think is by design. My guess is Oberyn has scoured the world looking for Targaryen descendants, which is why he returns to retrieve the girls shortly after their birth. I think Oberyn has set things in motion that will have repercussions after his death.

[wolfmaid7]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/114673-the-hidden-prince-subversion/

Guys might want to check this out and write a post or two

[Hrafntýr]

I do think that Joanna Lannister had a second set of twins, but one of them got absorbed, leaving Tyrion with mismatched eyes and beard hair, and a sense of having two heads. Tyrion is very possibly a human chimera, which is the result of a pregnancy of twins gone wildly wrong. But I doubt that Tywin had anything to do with it.

ETA: beard hair

That's really interesting, Arya Havinfun! Although I somehow doubt that genetic chimerism will ever enter in the ASoIaF narrative, it's a very good explanation for Tyrion's mismatched eyes and hair, and the terminology of the chimera works nicely with the "monsters" motif.

[Black Crow]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/114673-the-hidden-prince-subversion/

Guys might want to check this out and write a post or two

Its an interesting thread and certainly more sensible than some of the stuff that appears in another place; at the end of the day this is the Song of Ice and Fire not the mystery of Jon Snow. Effectively there is no great mystery because its been possible to work out the answer from book 1 [according to GRRM] the real question is what its going to mean and that requires moving away from sterile proclamations as to one particular outcome.

[Black Crow]

I'm glad you brought this comparison to my attention. I think that there is far more significance to Queenscrown then most believe. There is a reason Alysanne's story was brought up in two different points of view, and there is a reason that GRRM has her traveling sans husband through the North and up to the Wall.

There is a theory anyway that Mary Queen of Scots miscarried twins while imprisoned at Loch Leven castle. Apparently she may have claimed rape to cover up an adulteress affair. If so, this may dovetail with my theory that Alysanne may have had an affair at the Queenscrown and gave birth at Snowgate, while her husband was away. And it is from the descendants of her line that we have our stone dragons "sleeping" up north.

I really can't get on board with this particular theory because everything else aside it requires Good Queen Alysanne hanging about in the north for close on a year and apart from her husband who may have been the conciliator but is hardly likely to have missed or overlooked something like that.

That's not to say there isn't a hidden significance to Queenscrown, but I really don't think this one has legs - or wings.

[Black Crow]

GRRM is definitely throwing out teasers about a targ connection with Tyrion, but it is so overt I tend to think it may be a misdirection on Martin's part.

Like R+L=J?