Jon Arryn, lots of mistakes in retrospect?

[Arya Weinergaryen]

((I changed the title of the topic after I read some comments and thought more about the topic. No, I don't think Jon Arryn was a fool, just that a lot of his decisions turned out to be bad ones, and that some, I think, we're weak ones.))

On my first go through the books I was not quite sure what to make of Jon Arryn. We never meet him, through POV or through present interaction of any POV character. Of all of the characters through whose eyes we encounter the story, Eddard is perhaps the closest to Jon Arryn, but even he has little to tell us. We know that Jon Arryn fostered Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon and during this time the three became close, Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark like brother, and Jon Arryn a father figure to them both. Much of the catalyst for the story is predicated on Jon Arryns suspicious death.

Jon Arryn was responsible, largely, for raising Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. But Robert Baratheon ended up a fool, a bully(I would say) and was, in the end a mediocre king, at best. Under Jon Arryns advice Robert Baratheon married Cersei Lannister which lead to his(Roberts) death. Jon Arryn advised Robert Baratheon to pardon Tywin Lannister and Jaime Lannister for their crimes, which also turned out to be a mistake, both for himself, Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. As the Hand of the King he was unable to reign in Roberts spending.

Jon Arryn himself married Lyssa Tully in order to secure swords for the rebellion. This, too, was a mistake, as Lyssa would ultimately be his death. It seems that even if Robery Arryn is Jon Arrys son, that he still did not do a very good job of keeping his mother from corrupting him. Robert Arryn is weak and sickly, but hes also sadistic. Jon Arrys focus on being the hand of the king left his own protectorate under maintained. He brought to court his wifes lover (whether or not he knew it is not the point) to court, and helped him climb the social ladder and gain power and influence. Little Finger was good at what he did, even if it was just obfuscation, but Jon Arryn showed tremendously poor judgment in supporting him.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like Jon Arryn was a man who meant well, but basically made a mess of all the things he was involved in. Sort of like Eddard Stark. Maybe thats where Eddard got it from?

Was Jon Arryn blind, naïve or just in over his head?

[Kevvy]

I think he was just up against free will - he seemed more than able to deal with things; but most seemed out of his control. Ok, he was Hand, but all he can really do is advise; if Robert wanted to spend money, then Robert would. Same goes for the pardons - which, in fairness, was a wise political choice, why would anyone in future conflicts fight for a man that punishes those that switch to his side? (See: Stannis). Again, marrying Lysa - it was never for passion, only politics, and he cant be faulted for not knowing what Lysa would become. With his son, he wanted him fostered somewhere he could perhaps 'man up' a bit, but the lunacy of Lysa prevented this. Given a set of different circumstances, Jon Arryn would go down as one of the most successful Hands IMHO, but he had to contend with the choices of others - Robert listens to nobody, but had it been Ned that took the Throne then I'd imagine a good partnership as Ned would heed his council.

[Lord Defiance]

A lot of the things here I wouldn't call him a fool.

At the time, Cersei was in love with Robert but Robert only loved Lyanna. Had Robert been able to love her, things probably would have gone more smoothly for him. This is no fault of Jons.

For the marriage between him and Lysa, again I wouldn't call him a fool for that. To my knowledge, no one knew that Lysa and LF had a thing. Many people knew that LF had a thing for Catelyn.

I'm not following on how pardoning Tywin and Jaime was a bad move. The Lannisters really haven't done anything wrong, at least on their own except Cersei who ends up killing Robert.

I wouldn't call him a fool or stupid for that matter. It is said in the books that he ruled as hand very well and was well liked by most everyone. It's just difficult to tell a King that does what he wants... what he should do. And outside forces such as LF don't help either.

[Arya Weinergaryen]

Maybe fool was the wrong word. I think what I meant was that it seems like most of the things he did or tried to do, had a poor outcome.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The worst thing Jon Arryn did was trust Baelish to the extent that he did. And he's hardly alone in that error.

Loathsome as the Lannisters were/are, only a true fool would have kept them completely out of the loop or tried to punish them. It's the basic "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" mindset. Marrying Robert to Cersei (who, with Lyanna dead and Catelyn and Lysa already married, was surely one of the few available women high enough in birth to marry the king, if not the only one) ensured that 1. the Lannisters' fortunes would be tied to the Baratheons', which would keep them from trying to make a play on their own or support someone else and 2. the crown would have access to the Lannister gold it needed.

Marriages are not generally made with love in mind in this society, so Robert and Cersei liking each other or not liking each other is a moot point. It's also not like Jon could have known or foreseen Cersei carrying on sexual relations with her own brother until he was tipped off.

[Arya Weinergaryen]

The worst thing Jon Arryn did was trust Baelish to the extent that he did. And he's hardly alone in that error.

Loathsome as the Lannisters were/are, only a true fool would have kept them completely out of the loop or tried to punish them. It's the basic "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" mindset. Marrying Robert to Cersei (who, with Lyanna dead and Catelyn and Lysa already married, was surely one of the few available women high enough in birth to marry the king, if not the only one) ensured that 1. the Lannisters' fortunes would be tied to the Baratheons', which would keep them from trying to make a play on their own or support someone else and 2. the crown would have access to the Lannister gold it needed.

Marriages are not generally made with love in mind in this society, so Robert and Cersei liking each other or not liking each other is a moot point. It's also not like Jon could have known or foreseen Cersei carrying on sexual relations with her own brother until he was tipped off.

Punishing Jaime Lannister for killing king Aerys would have been justified and reasonable. But I guess if Robert had punished Jaime there would be repercussions from the Lannisters. I can see how it could be seen as punishing people who turned to your side, but the crimes of the Lannister's against the city of King's Landing were pretty atrocious. There was probably no way for Jon Arryn to know what kind of a wife Cersei would be, but it sure did end up terribly.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Punishing Jaime Lannister for killing king Aerys would have been justified and reasonable. But I guess if Robert had punished Jaime there would be repercussions from the Lannisters. I can see how it could be seen as punishing people who turned to your side, but the crimes of the Lannister's against the city of King's Landing were pretty atrocious. There was probably no way for Jon Arryn to know what kind of a wife Cersei would be, but it sure did end up terribly.

As bad as the Sack was, you can't turn up and say, "Oh thanks for getting rid of my enemies for me, but I'm afraid I'll have to punish you for it." It's not a feel-good decision, no doubt, but all the same.

Cersei and Robert's marriage did end up terribly, but that's on them, not Arryn.

[OldGimletEye]

Well, it seem to me that, on paper at least, Arryn put together a coalition of the Starks, Tullys, Arynns, Baratheons,and Lannisters. Not bad if you are trying to stabilize a new regime. I don't think he can be faulted because lots of the people involved turned out to be nitwits.

Also, I really don't think you can fault him because Robert turned out to be a bad or mediocre ruler. If a kid doesn't want to be a Marcus Aurelius, I really don't know what you can do.

[Boarsbane]

Well, it seem to me that, on paper at least, Arryn put together a coalition of the Starks, Tullys, Arynns, Baratheons,and Lannisters. Not bad if you are trying to stabilize a new regime. I don't think he can be faulted because lots of the people involved turned out to be nitwits.

Also, I really don't think you can fault him because Robert turned out to be a bad or mediocre ruler. If a kid doesn't want to be a Marcus Aurelius, I really don't know what you can do.

It was already together, and it seemed to be mostly Rickard's scheming that formed it. Arryn brought the Lannisters in but they had already basically thrown themselves in with the Sack.

[Trigger Warning]

Punishing Jaime Lannister for killing king Aerys would have been justified and reasonable. But I guess if Robert had punished Jaime there would be repercussions from the Lannisters. I can see how it could be seen as punishing people who turned to your side, but the crimes of the Lannister's against the city of King's Landing were pretty atrocious. There was probably no way for Jon Arryn to know what kind of a wife Cersei would be, but it sure did end up terribly.

Well, sacking a city is seen as justified if the city holds out against an attacker. Since the Targaryens let them in this is a bit of a grey area but still, shit happens when your army assaults and enters an enemy city. Had Ned Stark's army breached the city you'd probably see the same thing.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Also, I really don't think you can fault him because Robert turned out to be a bad or mediocre ruler. If a kid doesn't want to be a Marcus Aurelius, I really don't know what you can do.

It also doesn't seem fair to criticize Arryn for how Robert turned out but not praise him for how Ned turned out. The fact that Robert and Ned were both fostered by Arryn and yet came away with pretty diverging philosophies and rulership skills suggests a general difference in basic inherent personality and/or that both boys were shaped by other factors before and/or after their time in the Vale. Neither of which is Arryn's fault.

[The Bittersteel]

I think people are underrating some of his achievements here. Robert and Ned turned out pretty well all things considered and the friendship between the three united the kingdom for a long time. He sealed an alliance with the Lannisters (issues between Cersei and Robert can hardly be blamed on him) Prevented the Martells from immediately going their own way and came close to discovering the incest kids legitimacy. Yes he trusted his wife too much but it seems a bit harsh to judge him too harshly for that. As to Robyn's behavior he was trying to toughen him up by fostering him with a great lord so it's not likely he was completely inactive in that regard.

A good man I say.

[Arya Weinergaryen]

Well, sacking a city is seen as justified if the city holds out against an attacker. Since the Targaryens let them in this is a bit of a grey area but still, shit happens when your army assaults and enters an enemy city. Had Ned Stark's army breached the city you'd probably see the same thing.

Randyl Tarly hanged and gelded men under his command who raped and pillaged needlessly.

[Trigger Warning]

Randyl Tarly hanged and gelded men under his command who raped and pillaged needlessly.

He's not storming a city, he's occupying one.

[Arya Weinergaryen]

It also doesn't seem fair to criticize Arryn for how Robert turned out but not praise him for how Ned turned out. The fact that Robert and Ned were both fostered by Arryn and yet came away with pretty diverging philosophies and rulership skills suggests a general difference in basic inherent personality and/or that both boys were shaped by other factors before and/or after their time in the Vale. Neither of which is Arryn's fault.

Obviously, Eddard turned out well, but just as naive. I agree that there were other factors that impacted both men and Jon Arryn cannot be held accountable for the failures of his wards. It just seems like a lot of the things he tried to do, turned sour eventually. Although I guess there were tons of other factors.

[Boarsbane]

Randyl Tarly hanged and gelded men under his command who raped and pillaged needlessly.

KL is a big city and you have 12,000 men sacking it, I imagine it was a bit harder to weed out the rapist than it was for Tarly, not that anyone high born probably cared what happened to the smallfolk during the Sack.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Obviously, Eddard turned out well, but just as naive. I agree that there were other factors that impacted both men and Jon Arryn cannot be held accountable for the failures of his wards. It just seems like a lot of the things he tried to do, turned sour eventually. Although I guess there were tons of other factors.

Yeah see here's the kicker: Most of the things that he tried to do that turned out sour were not his fault. And even the stuff he had some control over is a stretch. Most men don't worry about being poisoned by their wives or their king's wife fucking her brother.

[OldGimletEye]

I think the analysis can't completely depend on how things turned out. I think you have to analyze whether the decisions were reasonable at the time Arryn made them.

Also, I don't know how you blame Arryn for Robert's profligate spending. I don't know what Arryn was supposed to do here, other than make Robert aware of the problem and the consequences of it.

[averde]

Jon Arryn seems to be the opposite of a fool, all of the decisions you list out seem to be pretty smart politically and help to rebuild a kingdom after what's the equivalent of a revolution that knocked out a regime that's been in power for centuries, no small feat especially in a feudal society like Westeros. There's no way he could have predicted that Cersei and Jamie were into incest, Littlefinger was a political genius of the highest order and a cruel psychopath who had complete control of his own wife, etc. Those aren't the kind of events you can foresee, he does a great job with the knowledge and resources at his disposal following a devastating war to rebuild the kingdom and keep it together from the arbor to the wall.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

At the time, Cersei was in love with Robert but Robert only loved Lyanna. Had Robert been able to love her, things probably would have gone more smoothly for him. This is no fault of Jons.

First things first; Welcome!

Second; I am sure that Cersei f***ing Jaime the morning before her wedding proves how much in love she was with Robert and how willing she was to spend even a though on trying to make the marriage work. At least Robert tried to include her to his life and for them to come closer but Cersei never did.