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If R + L Were Married, How Were They Married And Who Married Them?


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#1 Arlan of Pennytree

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:49 PM

In most of the R+L=J threads, a lot of theories abound as to the state of their union.  I would like to have a discussion, under the pretense that they were married, about how Targaryens were married, particularly those that had plural marriages.

 

As to the speculation of whether Lyanna and Rhargar were married or not (and, in turn, Jon's legitimacy) we have this excerpt from aCoK, P. 497-98 (2012 Bantam Books Mass Market Tie-In Edition) that lends credence, as I see it, to them being married. 

 

". . .but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike. The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men."

 

This, in conjunction with the POV 'remembrances' of Rhaegar that suggest he possessed some honor in him regarding his relations with women, and it being directly related to a prophecy he risked all for, strongly suggests that he would have done honor to Lyanna and himself by claiming her as his wife before any consummation.

 

If, as Catelyn suggests, "Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men", I think it stands to reason that the faith of The Seven would've had no say in the matter (or Red R'hllor).  How polygamist Targaryen marriages were 'legitimized' is *the question here, if they required any legitimization at all.  But whatever that process was, I don't think it had anything to do with a septon/priest/priestess. 

 

I believe the Targaryen's most likely had their own marriage ritual, entirely separate from any faith.  If this is the case, Rhaegar and Lyanna could have just said 'the words' or swore a marriage vow that the Targaryen polygamists held to.  Then, for Rhaegar's purposes, the child would've been of his blood with his name.

 

Of course I could be wrong, but I don't recall any textual account specifically recalling an incestuous or polygamist union, and I don't think The Faith would have had a double-standard concerning this. 


Edited by Arlan of Pennytree, 24 July 2014 - 08:52 PM.


#2 Wmarshal

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:52 PM

I think it means as much as Edward the fourth's first marriage, Jon may as we'll be a bastard, no one witness it.

#3 BearQueen87

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:54 PM

I think they married in the Old Way and the New Way

 

1) Old Way: they need a heart tree and witnesses. If Lyanna was "taken" from Harrenhal or nearby, the Isle of Faces is right there. Dayne and Whent serve as witnesses

 

2) New Way: they need witnesses and a septon they could trust. Meribald is a perfect candidate. Incredibly pious and won't spill their secrets afterwards. Again, Dayne and Whent serve as witnesses.

 

Both ways need a marriage cloak, which I believe Rhaegar had.

 

A third more Targaryen way is also possible; but the Old way for Lyanna and the North and the New Way for the Realm south.



#4 Arlan of Pennytree

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:58 PM

I think it means as much as Edward the fourth's first marriage, Jon may as we'll be a bastard, no one witness it.

But that was to seat Richard III, and they were later legitimised by Henry VII. . .

 

*Of course that was a political move, they weren't truly bastards.


Edited by Arlan of Pennytree, 24 July 2014 - 09:03 PM.


#5 Apple Martini

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:58 PM

I think we have at least two compelling options. Maybe more, but these two stand out.

 

I'm operating under the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped from Harrenhal. Not immediately after the tournament, but sometime after. I think it's possible that Lyanna stayed there in preparation for Brandon's wedding, rather than schlep back up north only to have to come all the way down again. This also dovetails with the confirmation in the World app that Whent helped Rhaegar in "taking" her, and with the idea that Harrenhal is of pretty supreme importance in general.

 

1. Septon Meribald is unorthodox and earthy to say the least, and we're explicitly told that one of the services he performs on his circuits is marriages.

 

2. The Isle of Faces. Weirwoods out the wazoo.



#6 Lady Blizzardborn

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:02 PM

Rhaegar most likely would have thought as far as the legitimacy of any child he would have with Lyanna.  There's no point in marrying her and producing a child who all of Westeros would deem a bastard.  If he knows everyone is going to think the kid is a bastard there's really no reason to marry Lyanna (unless she refused to sleep with him without the ceremony).

 

So, it's possible that he very quietly got the High Septon's permission to take a second wife.  If he had that, he could marry her in the old way or the new way as either would probably be considered legally valid.  However, that requires that he left evidence not only of the marriage, but the HS's blessing/acceptance of it.  Unless the HS himself married them, that means at least two items are needed for proof.


Edited by Lady Blizzardborn, 24 July 2014 - 09:03 PM.


#7 Arlan of Pennytree

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:53 PM

But what eats at me concerning the old gods and the new is Catelyn thinking ". . .but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new", and Cat's POV isn't the only one reflecting this thought.  I'm aware incest wasn't an issue in this particular instance, but it was common among Targaryens.  It seems to me that an incestuous marriage would not be preformed by a septon because it is such a monstrous sin, or viewed as legitimate by those who kept the old gods.  The only instance involving the old gods and polygamy is Craster. . .

 

Would it be seen as a marriage if they forced a septon to marry them or had a ceremony before a heart tree regardless of what those who kept the old gods thought?   I don't know.  Possibly, where Targaryens are concerned, the faith 'overlooked' the incest, but I doubt that.  When the Targ's were marrying siblings the faith had an army, and the they had risen up at least once before against the Targaryens because of incest.  Aegon had two wives that were his sisters. The High Septon supported him until his death, then war borke out between the faith and the Targaryens because of incest (and plural marriage maybe?)).  This indicates the High Septon of Aegon I could have been corrupt, and went against the faith.

 

I bring the instances of incest up merely to point out that they may have married under some other type of ceremony that did not require the faith.  The old way could be the answer, as it might not matter what anyone thought as long as the ceremony was done, but, IMO, it's unlikely.


Edited by Arlan of Pennytree, 24 July 2014 - 11:26 PM.


#8 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 11:14 PM

But what eats at me concerning the old gods and the new is Catelyn thinking ". . .but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new", and Cat's POV isn't the only one reflecting this thought.  I'm aware incest wasn't an issue in this particular instance, but it was common among Targaryens.  It seems to me that an incestuous marriage would not be preformed by a septon because it is such a monstrous sin, or viewed as legitimate by those who kept the old gods. 

 

Would it be seen as a marriage if they forced a septon to marry them or had a ceremony before a heart tree regardless of what those who kept the old gods thought?   I don't know.  Possibly, where Targaryens are concerned, the faith 'overlooked' the incest, but I doubt that.  When the Targ's were marrying syblings the faith had an army

 

Aegon I was already married to his sisters before he conquered the continent.  The Faith had nothing to do with it.  The reason the High Septon decided to give his support is because he recognized that Oldtown would burn if he refused as the nobles were looking to his decisions.  Maegor didn't marry his sisters.  He had a slew of wives from other families.  So the only incestuous marriage the Faith would have overseen while they still had an army would be Jaehaerys and Alysanne.  Jaehaerys was also the one who peacefully negotiated with the Faith Militant and he had a septon in his pocket for most of his rule.  

 

That's the thing about the High Septon.  From what we've seen, the HS is generally someone who is a friend to the crown, usually more than just friendly, more like a crown servant.  I would guess that this practice of the crown having great influence on who the HS was started sometime around Jaehaerys' rule.  If people are looking to the HS for policy and such, it makes sense for Jaehaerys to recognize the need to make sure the HS is someone who will support the crown, even if the religion believes a certain practice was abominable.  Then it's just a matter of it becoming tradition.  So yes, I think it's reasonable that the faith overlooked it and it also helped the Targaryen elevation to godly status as they could thumb their nose at the gods and get away with it.

 

 

With polygamy, there isn't any godly rule against it.  We see it twice north of the wall, with Craster and Ygon.  With Craster, the complaint we hear is that these are incestuous marriages, not that this is polygamy.  We don't hear any commentary one way or another about Ygon's eighteen wives.  



#9 corbon

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 01:30 AM

But what eats at me concerning the old gods and the new is Catelyn thinking ". . .but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new", and Cat's POV isn't the only one reflecting this thought.  I'm aware incest wasn't an issue in this particular instance, but it was common among Targaryens.  It seems to me that an incestuous marriage would not be preformed by a septon because it is such a monstrous sin, or viewed as legitimate by those who kept the old gods.

It seems to me that you are simply mistaken.
No one complains about Aerys' marriage to his sister Rhaella, or suggests that Rhaegar, Viserys and Danaerys are illegitimate because their parents' marriage was not legit.
Nor any of the other incestuous Targs.

So basically I think you've just go the wrong end of the stick. The Faith gave the Targaryen's a pass because they were 'special'. Thats clearly the case for incest where we have a clear prohibition from the Faith but definietly multiple marriages with acceptable fruits of the union, and there is no reason that it wouldn't be the same for polygamy, where there is no clear prohibition.
 

The only instance involving the old gods and polygamy is Craster. . .

 
And Ygon Oldfather.
 

Would it be seen as a marriage if they forced a septon to marry them or had a ceremony before a heart tree regardless of what those who kept the old gods thought?   I don't know.  Possibly, where Targaryens are concerned, the faith 'overlooked' the incest, but I doubt that.  When the Targ's were marrying siblings the faith had an army

 

It seems very clear that the Faith did simply overlook that. The Targs successfully married siblings with no hint of a murmur against it as recently as the sitting king during Robert's Rebellion and during that time the Targs had no dragons to 'enforce' their will.
They were just allowed, because they are special.


Edited by corbon, 25 July 2014 - 01:31 AM.


#10 Fire Eater

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 07:46 PM

I think we have at least two compelling options. Maybe more, but these two stand out.

 

I'm operating under the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped from Harrenhal. Not immediately after the tournament, but sometime after. I think it's possible that Lyanna stayed there in preparation for Brandon's wedding, rather than schlep back up north only to have to come all the way down again. This also dovetails with the confirmation in the World app that Whent helped Rhaegar in "taking" her, and with the idea that Harrenhal is of pretty supreme importance in general.

 

1. Septon Meribald is unorthodox and earthy to say the least, and we're explicitly told that one of the services he performs on his circuits is marriages.

 

2. The Isle of Faces. Weirwoods out the wazoo.

To add to what Apple said, I think Rhaegar and Lyanna were likely married by a certain traveling septon on his circuit throughout the riverlands. Apple mentions Lem's likely background as Richard Lonmouth, and Meribald likely has a backstory as well. Plenty of seemingly random characters in the riverlands do have backstories relating to RR; along with Lem there is Elder Brother on the QI who fought in the Battle of the Trident.   

 

Rhaegar would have wanted to be married by a septon since he was raised worshiping the Seven while Lyanna would want to be married before a heart tree because of her upbringing with the Old Gods. I think Rhaegar would have granted her that request, and have a septon marry them before a heart tree. Meribald would have remembered that as that would have been the only time someone asked to be married before a heart tree.



#11 stateofdissipation

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 08:26 PM

In most of the R+L=J threads, a lot of theories abound as to the state of their union.  I would like to have a discussion, under the pretense that they were married, about how Targaryens were married, particularly those that had plural marriages.

 

As to the speculation of whether Lyanna and Rhargar were married or not (and, in turn, Jon's legitimacy) we have this excerpt from aCoK, P. 497-98 (2012 Bantam Books Mass Market Tie-In Edition) that lends credence, as I see it, to them being married. 

 

". . .but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike. The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men."

 

This, in conjunction with the POV 'remembrances' of Rhaegar that suggest he possessed some honor in him regarding his relations with women, and it being directly related to a prophecy he risked all for, strongly suggests that he would have done honor to Lyanna and himself by claiming her as his wife before any consummation.

 

If, as Catelyn suggests, "Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men", I think it stands to reason that the faith of The Seven would've had no say in the matter (or Red R'hllor).  How polygamist Targaryen marriages were 'legitimized' is *the question here, if they required any legitimization at all.  But whatever that process was, I don't think it had anything to do with a septon/priest/priestess. 

 

I believe the Targaryen's most likely had their own marriage ritual, entirely separate from any faith.  If this is the case, Rhaegar and Lyanna could have just said 'the words' or swore a marriage vow that the Targaryen polygamists held to.  Then, for Rhaegar's purposes, the child would've been of his blood with his name.

 

Of course I could be wrong, but I don't recall any textual account specifically recalling an incestuous or polygamist union, and I don't think The Faith would have had a double-standard concerning this. 

In most of the R+L=J threads, a lot of theories abound as to the state of their union.  I would like to have a discussion, under the pretense that they were married, about how Targaryens were married, particularly those that had plural marriages.

Maegor the Cruel was the last Targ king to have multiple wives.  He died in the year 48.  Aegon the conquerer was the other Targ king to have multiple wives.  Under the pretense that prince Rhaegar  became the third Targ and the first prince to practice polygamy.  Remembering the last time it was practiced was 234 years earlier.

OK

 

As to the speculation of whether Lyanna and Rhargar were married or not (and, in turn, Jon's legitimacy) we have this excerpt from aCoK, P. 497-98 (2012 Bantam Books Mass Market Tie-In Edition) that lends credence, as I see it, to them being married. 

". . .but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike. The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men."

 

Unless you are suggesting Rhaegar was Lyanna's brother the passage does not apply.

 

This, in conjunction with the POV 'remembrances' of Rhaegar that suggest he possessed some honor in him regarding his relations with women, and it being directly related to a prophecy he risked all for, strongly suggests that he would have done honor to Lyanna and himself by claiming her as his wife before any consummation.

Eddard chapter 36
---Ned has just resigned as hand over Robert's order to kill children, stating--"I thought you a better man than this Robert, I thought we had made a better king."--Eddard aGoT page 343.
"but he(Ned) had assured her(Lyanna) that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true that would love her with all his heart." aGoT page 367
---Lyanna disagreed stating:"Love is sweet dearest Ned but it cannot change a man's nature" aGoT page 367
---Going to a brothel to see one of Robert's bastards clearly showed Ned that he had been mistaken.
 
"He wondered if Rhaegar Targaryen had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not." aGoT page 369
 
Ned was visiting Robert's bastard at a brothel.  He had just confirmed that what Robert did (sex) before his betrothal did matter.
Ned thought Rhaeger would not frequent brothels.----Unknown source of this conclusion---
 

 

Hypothesis---the unknown source of the conclusion---Ned knew that Rhaegar did not have sex before his marriage.
 

If, as Catelyn suggests, "Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men", I think it stands to reason that the faith of The Seven would've had no say in the matter (or Red R'hllor). 

If Rhaegar wanted to marry his sister Lyanna... this would be the case

How polygamist Targaryen marriages were 'legitimized' is *the question here, if they required any legitimization at all.  But whatever that process was, I don't think it had anything to do with a septon/priest/priestess. 

The faiths had their own marriage practices.  The Iron Throne recognized marriages that a faith recognized.  There was only religious marriage. If there was not a marriage in religion there was not a marriage.

 

I believe the Targaryen's most likely had their own marriage ritual, entirely separate from any faith.  If this is the case, Rhaegar and Lyanna could have just said 'the words' or swore a marriage vow that the Targaryen polygamists held to.  Then, for Rhaegar's purposes, the child would've been of his blood with his name.

Of course I could be wrong, but I don't recall any textual account specifically recalling an incestuous or polygamist union, and I don't think The Faith would have had a double-standard concerning this. 

Aegon the Conquerer and his sister wives.

 

 

Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna. Rhaegar was fond of Elia.   This was not polygamy.  If married it was a new wife, not an additional wife.

 

"...How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"-- Cersei aGoT page 79 paperback

"The maid was Loras tyrell`s sister Margaery, he'd confessed, but there were those that said she looked like Lyanna"--aGoT page 269 paperback
"A year ago I schemed to make the girl (Margaery Tyrell) Robert's queen."--Renly aCoK page 478 paperback
 
The source (in law or religion) of Cersei's concern and Renly's scheme is not given.  It clearly is not the Targaryen polygamy from the time of dragons.
Lyanna plays in to both the concern and the scheme.
 
Chekhov's gun says that these must be essential to the story... Hypothesis-- Rhaegar put Elia aside for Lyanna.


#12 Wmarshal

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 08:28 PM

But that was to seat Richard III, and they were later legitimised by Henry VII. . .
 
*Of course that was a political move, they weren't truly bastards.

I mean to his first wife, the one he married in secret

#13 Arlan of Pennytree

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 12:59 AM

I mean to his first wife, the one he married in secret

So did I. 



#14 Arlan of Pennytree

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 03:02 AM

Unless you are suggesting Rhaegar was Lyanna's brother the passage does not apply.  Yes it does.  My point was that the Faith and keepers of the Old Gods might not recognize an incestuous marriage, therefore, there could be a type of marriage ceremony unrelated to these faiths.

 

"Of course I could be wrong, but I don't recall any textual account specifically recalling an incestuous or polygamist union"

 

^^That reads a little unclear, I was meaning the actual ceremony or ritual.  The Mad King had sister wives, I know, but how they were married, I still don't know.

 

The faiths had their own marriage practices.  I agree. 

 

The Iron Throne recognized marriages that a faith recognized.  I agree.

 

There was only religious marriage.  Where can I find this information?  Not necessarily disagreeing, I just haven't found any information that would rule out, say an ancient Valyrian marriage ritual.

 

If there was not a marriage in religion there was not a marriage.  Again, I'd like to read something that supports this statement.  You may very well be right, thats why I'm asking.

 

Maegor the Cruel was the last Targ king to have multiple wives. We don't really know that (e.g., Viserys II?  Am I wrong?  But incest was spread throughout.  Incest was an abomination, more so than polygamy, and could have been cause for some different ritual)

 

Eddard chapter 36

---Ned has just resigned as hand over Robert's order to kill children, stating--"I thought you a better man than this Robert, I thought we had made a better king."--Eddard aGoT page 343.
"but he(Ned) had assured her(Lyanna) that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true that would love her with all his heart." aGoT page 367
---Lyanna disagreed stating:"Love is sweet dearest Ned but it cannot change a man's nature" aGoT page 367
---Going to a brothel to see one of Robert's bastards clearly showed Ned that he had been mistaken.
 
"He wondered if Rhaegar Targaryen had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not." aGoT page 369
 
Ned was visiting Robert's bastard at a brothel.  He had just confirmed that what Robert did (sex) before his betrothal did matter.
Ned thought Rhaeger would not frequent brothels.----Unknown source of this conclusion---
 

 

Hypothesis---the unknown source of the conclusion---Ned knew that Rhaegar likely did not have sex before his marriage dishonor himself by consorting with whores.
 
Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna. Rhaegar was fond of Elia.   This was not polygamy.  If married it was a new wife, not an additional wife.  This is pure speculation.  There is no evidence that he 'divorced' or set aside Elia, but there is evidence to the contrary.
 

"...How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"-- Cersei aGoT page 79 paperback.  There is a parallel, but this is a blatant reference concerning Robert

 
"The maid was Loras tyrell`s sister Margaery, he'd confessed, but there were those that said she looked like Lyanna"--aGoT page 269 paperback Renly attempting to hide his homosexuality by emulating Robert (not to mention winning support of Highgarden)
 
"A year ago I schemed to make the girl (Margaery Tyrell) Robert's queen."--Renly aCoK page 478 paperback  An attempt to undermind Lannister power.
 
The source (in law or religion) of Cersei's concern and Renly's scheme is not given.  It clearly is not the Targaryen polygamy from the time of dragons.  Thats because it's unrelated. . .
 
Lyanna plays in to both the concern and the scheme.
 
Chekhov's gun says that these must be essential to the story... Hypothesis-- Rhaegar put Elia aside for Lyanna.  Chekov's gun doesn't apply to all the 'guns' in these stories anyway.  Do you seriously think there isn't any red herrings? And I dont believe it applies to the above statements in the way you are implying it does (that every mention of Robert and Lyanna is cryptic essentials for Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship.)   "A year ago I schemed to make the girl (Margaery Tyrell) Robert's queen." and Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna. Rhaegar was fond of Elia aren't what I'd consider loaded guns.

Edited by Arlan of Pennytree, 27 July 2014 - 03:05 AM.


#15 Tony Schmidt

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:07 AM

You could find a septan very easily

#16 Dorian Martell

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:25 PM

Especially a drunk one 



#17 Illifer the Penniless

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:32 PM

*Crackpot warning*

So you know how there's a theory about Howland Reed being the High Septon?

Yeah. That. It could also have something to do with how he saved Ned at ToJ if indeed he had been the one to marry R+L

#18 Dorian Martell

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:40 PM

But Lord Reed was traveling with ned the whole time so no



#19 booknerd2

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:56 PM

I can't shake either that one of Lyanna's sticking points, if not her main one, was when talking with Ned was her issue with Robert staying in one bed. Would love to know when this occurred. Before or after Ned and/or Rickard arranged the engagement? Sounds like before, but who knows? It sounds like he was feeling her out or giving her the heads up. Was she already enamored with Rhaegar at that time? That is a big issue too. Did Lyanna feel that Rickard, Ned, and maybe even Brandon, went ahead disregarding her input and just arranged it with Robert? Of course she knows she is a lady and does not have to have a say, but if they grew up close, it still has to hurt.

 

I doubt she went off with Rhaegar, had a baby, and did not marry. And from the greatly pieced together theories and possibilities above, it is highly possible. And we get accounts of the dreamy/melancholic harp playing-Rhaegar, but not marrying doesn't help him, or her, or their unborn.



#20 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:03 PM

 

 

Maegor the Cruel was the last Targ king to have multiple wives. We don't really know that (e.g., Viserys II?  Am I wrong?  But incest was spread throughout.  Incest was an abomination, more so than polygamy, and could have been cause for some different ritual)

 

With this, Maegor was the last Targ king to have multiple wives when there was still a Faith Militant.  After Jaehaerys negotiated disarming of the FM, there really isn't the fear that the Faith could truly endanger the crown.  Jaehaerys had his own septon in his pocket and there are later cases of the crown appointing the High Septon.  Baelor I, for example.  The tradition of the crown having say in who the HS is seemed to continue through Robert Baratheon's rule.  When the crown has a major say in who the HS is, the HS is less likely to really make a stink about marrying brothers and sisters.  There need not be different religious rituals because the crown is now the power behind the Faith.