If R + L Were Married, How Were They Married And Who Married Them?

[BearQueen87]

I buy the R +L =J stuff but I still think he is a bastard. Even if he isn't there is nobody to disprove it so he will be stuck with bastard status forever. I like it better that way anyway. The idea of him having some Aregon style crowning makes me sick. I think it would destroy everything that has made the series great.

I don't think one necessarily follow the other, that just because he is revealed to be the legit son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, someone is going to hand him a crown. Right now, the Targs aren't in power. The throne was taken through conquest; a Targ heir (be it fAegon, Dany or Jon) appearing is not going be cause for a sudden shift in power; the Lannisters are not going to hand over the keys to the Red Keep just because a Targaryen shows up.

If Jon were to become King, IMO, it would be because he is chosen by the realm after the War for the Dawn. Whatever Jon does during the War (not to mention his time as LC of the NW) will single him out as a capable leader who can take Westeros into a new age. His heritage is important to him (and possibly Dany) but for the rest of Westeros, it comes down to what Jon does, not who his parents were.

[sertravisredbeard]

If a thirteen year old dwarf with a recently traumatized peasant's daughter can figure out how to bribe a drunken septon into marrying them, a crown prince with a young shield maiden who just did surprisingly well in a jousting tournament should be able to figure out how to get married pretty easily.

[Debra Morgan]

Why do you believe this? If Jon is The Prince that was Promised, then don't his parents have to be married? The prophesy is not for the Bastard that was Promised.

Who said that he is PtwP?

[Mal Malenkirk]

Unless it can be proven that the marriage is legitimate, it's not as far as the world is concerned.

If the child being legitimate mattered to Rhaegar, he would have likely thought about this so I wonder what the contingency plan was.

If he did something silly like marrying her in front of a weirwood tree with his king's guard as only witnesses, then it's game over. Everybody's dead! And a travelling septon of no repute is about as good as no septon at all. Hopefully, if there was a marriage, there was more to it than a quickie on the side of the road... Perhaps there are documents somehwere. If so, who'd have them?

But ultimately, perhaps the legitimacy of the children matters not one whit to the prophecy.

[Ulthosian Stark]

Just saying, Robb left a will why wouldn't the bookish nerd at heart Rhaegar?

It would be biased to insist that he didn't. Could have explained everything. Could have had someone marry them somehow, maybe the LC of the KG has the right to do so? I'm sure a septon would have been sympathetic to the crown prince, especially with war happening, I think any loyal subject would see it as a chance to bolster him. Encourage him to victory.

[ambi76]

Call me crazy, but I still think Rhaegar and Elia were "divorced". He had "set her aside" as Renly and Loras planned Robert to do with Cersei. Probably said to her "So long and tell your family sorry, but not sorry." It was Aerys who then insisted to keep Elia and her kids as hostages in the Red Keep, while Rhaegar went of to get remarried. Poly problem solved. Well, if there is any evidence left for it at least.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Who said that he is PtwP?

Well, he is A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified, so the evidence is fairly strong that he is TPTWP. And even if he is not TPTWP (although I strongly believe the evidence is compelling that he is), there is also the consideration that Rhaegar at a minimum would have expected his child with Lyanna to be one of the heads of the dragon, and I would expect that Rhaegar would have thought that the third head should be a legitimate child and not a bastard.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Call me crazy, but I still think Rhaegar and Elia were "divorced". He had "set her aside" as Renly and Loras planned Robert to do with Cersei. Probably said to her "So long and tell your family sorry, but not sorry." It was Aerys who then insisted to keep Elia and her kids as hostages in the Red Keep, while Rhaegar went of to get remarried. Poly problem solved. Well, if there is any evidence left for it at least.

For what would Aerys need a hostage? The war had not started yet. Aerys apparently does not take Elia as a hostage until after Rhaegar is killed, but at the earliest, Aerys would have no reason to consider treated Elia as a hostage until the war broke out.

ETA: I also don't think it is that easy to divorce in Westeros. Marriage is easy--do the required steps (old god--weirwood tree; new god--septon) and you are married. My understanding is that divorce is hard. Once you are married, you are married unless you get "special permission" to get divorced. It is one thing to believe that King Robert could arrange for a divorce--but Prince Rhaegar would have a much harder time--and I think it would likely have to be public--so people would have known and we would have been told by someone that R&E got divorced.

[BearQueen87]

Call me crazy, but I still think Rhaegar and Elia were "divorced". He had "set her aside" as Renly and Loras planned Robert to do with Cersei. Probably said to her "So long and tell your family sorry, but not sorry." It was Aerys who then insisted to keep Elia and her kids as hostages in the Red Keep, while Rhaegar went of to get remarried. Poly problem solved. Well, if there is any evidence left for it at least.

I find this hard to believe because Rhaegar, we are told, was fond of Elia. Plus, he's not going to risk Dorne's wrath, which he certainly would be doing if he set aside his first wife and their children.

[corbon]

I think if there was another example of a Targaryen king with multiple wives we'd know by now, from the App or something. You're right technically there could be another one in there somewhere, maybe a Targaryen who never reigned as king.

We kind of do know.

GRRM said "there may be more" (he didn't know, he'd have to check it, or make it up, as he needed to) which clearly shows that the possibility of more has not, in his mind, been closed off.

Thats all we need to know.

Regardless of whether in the end Maekor was the last Targaryen to marry polygamously or there were others we don't yet know of, clearly the option was not closed off.

We know that it's generally not allowed in Westeros, whether there's an actual law or just a religious or cultural thing is unclear. The question is if the Targaryens agreed to stop doing it after Maegor

We do not know that.

Generall not practiced, is not the same thing as generally not allowed - its a very very important difference.

Given that we have zero, literally zero, hints of any agreement to stop;

given that we have no actual indication of any law against it, religious or otherwise;

given that we have clear indication that incest is against the laws of both gods and men;

given that we have clear indication that the Targaryens successfully practiced incest and it was unchallenged by men or Faith as recently as Aerys marrying Rhaella;

its impossible to see any actual case for challenging the legallity, religious or otherwise, of a possible polygamous marriage by Rahegar Targaryen.

Basically a lot of people don't like the idea (for many and varied reasons) and are inventing stuff that doesn't exist to try and argue it was impossible.

[RumHam]

We kind of do know.

GRRM said "there may be more" (he didn't know, he'd have to check it, or make it up, as he needed to) which clearly shows that the possibility of more has not, in his mind, been closed off.

Thats all we need to know.

Regardless of whether in the end Maekor was the last Targaryen to marry polygamously or there were others we don't yet know of, clearly the option was not closed off.

The possibility had not been closed off back in 2001 when he made that statement. That was thirteen years ago, before he had nailed down all the Targaryen history stuff. We know he has changed his mind about other things since then (Rhaenrya and Aegon II's age difference, Visersy II's relationship to Aegon III, Rhaenrya's Strong husband, etc.)

We do not know that.

Generall not practiced, is not the same thing as generally not allowed - its a very very important difference.

It's not allowed. When Littlefinger tells Sansa he's made a marriage contract for her, she remarks that she can't marry Harry because she's already married. Daemon can't marry Mysaria to make his son not a bastard in The Rogue Prince because he is already married. Renly plans to convince Robert to set Cersei aside so he can wed Margery.

Given that we have zero, literally zero, hints of any agreement to stop;

given that we have no actual indication of any law against it, religious or otherwise;

given that we have clear indication that incest is against the laws of both gods and men;

given that we have clear indication that the Targaryens successfully practiced incest and it was unchallenged by men or Faith as recently as Aerys marrying Rhaella;

its impossible to see any actual case for challenging the legallity, religious or otherwise, of a possible polygamous marriage by Rahegar Targaryen.

The only hint we have is that the practice did not continue after Maegor died and Jaehaerys made his deal with the Faith. That is the basis for my little theory that he may have agreed to end the practice or passed a law. (Though the law was probably already there and the Targaryens had just been ignoring it, like with incest.) I will admit that the evidence is thin, but it's just a theory.

Basically a lot of people don't like the idea (for many and varied reasons) and are inventing stuff that doesn't exist to try and argue it was impossible.

I promise you this is not my agenda. I'm not one of those people who hates a fictional character. If it were up to me I'd want only good things for Jon, and really don't have a problem with the idea of him being legitimate. My interest in this debate is because of my theory about Jaehaerys agreeing to stop/outlawing polygamy.

Edit: Here's an SSM I found while looking for the date on the "Maegor may not have been the last" one:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Polygamy_in_Westeros

[Would polygamous marriages be accepted in Westeros today, especially if Targaryens were involved?]

If you have some huge fire-breathing dragons, you can get people to accept a lot of things that they might otherwise have problems with.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The possibility had not been closed off back in 2001 when he made that statement. That was thirteen years ago, before he had nailed down all the Targaryen history stuff. We know he has changed his mind about other things since then (Rhaenrya and Aegon II's age difference, Visersy II's relationship to Aegon III, Rhaenrya's Strong husband, etc.)

GRRM can change certain details--but he will not change something that is central to the plot that he has structured from the beginning. The point is that GRRM made the point about polygamy because he knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in a polygamous marriage and was giving people a clue that it would be possible. While he can change his mind on whether there actually were any other such marriages between Maegor and Rhaegar, the point remains that he made the point back then because he already knew about the R&L marriage--which will not change because it is too central. If R&L were not married, then he would have had no need to make the comment about maybe there were more after Maegar. We also have the ToJ conversation that makes NO sense unless the KG think they are guarding the king, which requires R&L to have been married.

[RumHam]

GRRM can change certain details--but he will not change something that is central to the plot that he has structured from the beginning. The point is that GRRM made the point about polygamy because he knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in a polygamous marriage and was giving people a clue that it would be possible. While he can change his mind on whether there actually were any other such marriages between Maegor and Rhaegar, the point remains that he made the point back then because he already knew about the R&L marriage--which will not change because it is too central. If R&L were not married, then he would have had no need to make the comment about maybe there were more after Maegar.

That's possible, I don't think we can be totally sure that's the reason he said what he did. Anyway as I said earlier:

It is still interesting that Maegor was the last one (except possibly Rhaegar) to take multiple wives.

I don't rule out that idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have had a ceremony and considered themselves to be married. (Maybe skirt the Faith issue with a weirwood marriage?) I'm not sure such a marriage would be considered valid by the faith, the lords, or hold up later on at say a Great Council. They don't have dragons anymore to force their will on people. Lord Varys suggested in another thread the possibility that Aerys might have used it as an excuse to disinherit Rhaegar when he found out. We know one of Egg's sons had to give up his spot in line for marrying a commoner.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I don't rule out that idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have had a ceremony and considered themselves to be married. (Maybe skirt the Faith issue with a weirwood marriage?) I'm not sure such a marriage would be considered valid by the faith, the lords, or hold up later on at say a Great Council. They don't have dragons anymore to force their will on people. Lord Varys suggested in another thread the possibility that Aerys might have used it as an excuse to disinherit Rhaegar when he found out. We know one of Egg's sons had to give up his spot in line for marrying a commoner.

We have seen GCs in the past do all sorts of things that were not necessarily in line with strict inheritance rules (Aegon V, for example). So of course, a GC could use a polygamous marriage as an excuse if there is another candidate they preferred for some reason. But the notion that Aerys was likely to disinherit Rhaegar because he married Lyanna as a second wife (who clearly is NOT a commoner) seems far fetched to me. Aerys was paranoid about everyone, so he may have had issues with Rhaegar. But Aerys trusted Rhaegar enough to lead the battle at the Trident. Aerys himself married his own sister (maybe not eagerly, but he did it)--so issues of polygamy are unlikely to bother him when he is committing incest. Why would a polygamous marriage cause Aerys to disinherit Rhaegar--especially after seeing a new baby (which I believe Rhaegar was waiting to be born before revealing the marriage to Aerys), given that Elia could have no "spare heir" to Aegon. Obviously this is all meaningless speculation as Rhaegar and Aerys are both dead. But given the circumstances of the prophesy (dragon needs three heads) and the actions of the KG at ToJ, R&L were almost certainly married. Might there have been consequences to this marriage--perhaps, but Rhaegar probably felt he had no choice but to take such risks.

The bottom line is that evidence that there might have been consequences or challenges to a marriage between R&L really does not count as evidence that R&L did not get married and did not consider themselves to be married (as well as the KG at ToJ considering them to be married), as you seem to acknowledge, so I am not sure what you are really trying to demonstrate.

[BearQueen87]

I don't rule out that idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have had a ceremony and considered themselves to be married. (Maybe skirt the Faith issue with a weirwood marriage?) I'm not sure such a marriage would be considered valid by the faith, the lords, or hold up later on at say a Great Council. They don't have dragons anymore to force their will on people. Lord Varys suggested in another thread the possibility that Aerys might have used it as an excuse to disinherit Rhaegar when he found out. We know one of Egg's sons had to give up his spot in line for marrying a commoner.

If they had a ceremony in front of a heart tree, then they are married. It's not just that they considered themselves married. Northern marriages are just has valid south of the Neck as they are north of the neck. The Faith might try to get around a wandering septon if R and L also married in that fashion, but they can't get around a northern ceremony.

ETA: and I don't know if the High Septon can get around a wandering septon like Meribald. Not if he wants to remain High Septon. They tend to like their jobs more than their faith, which is why the Sparrow gives Cersei so many issues.

[RumHam]

We have seen GCs in the past do all sorts of things that were not necessarily in line with strict inheritance rules (Aegon V, for example). So of course, a GC could use a polygamous marriage as an excuse if there is another candidate they preferred for some reason. But the notion that Aerys was likely to disinherit Rhaegar because he married Lyanna as a second wife (who clearly is NOT a commoner) seems far fetched to me. Aerys was paranoid about everyone, so he may have had issues with Rhaegar. But Aerys trusted Rhaegar enough to lead the battle at the Trident. Aerys himself married his own sister (maybe not eagerly, but he did it)--so issues of polygamy are unlikely to bother him when he is committing incest. Why would a polygamous marriage cause Aerys to disinherit Rhaegar--especially after seeing a new baby (which I believe Rhaegar was waiting to be born before revealing the marriage to Aerys), given that Elia could have no "spare heir" to Aegon. Obviously this is all meaningless speculation as Rhaegar and Aerys are both dead.

I'm not suggesting that Aerys would be appalled by the idea of polgyamy. There was tension between Aerys and Rhaegar, it could have been used as a pretext to disinherit him. Aerys also probably would have worried that Rhaegar was sealing some kind of alliance with the North.

But given the circumstances of the prophesy (dragon needs three heads) and the actions of the KG at ToJ, R&L were almost certainly married. Might there have been consequences to this marriage--perhaps, but Rhaegar probably felt he had no choice but to take such risks.

You and I have had this debate before, but I don't see any reason why the prophecy should be affected by two people getting married in the eyes of a religion that probably didn't even exist when the prophecy was written. I think there are other explanations for the Kingsguard following Rhaegar's orders to guard Lyanna and Jon. I think it's possible they were married, but I'm not as sure as you seem to be.

The bottom line is that evidence that there might have been consequences or challenges to a marriage between R&L really does not count as evidence that R&L did not get married and did not consider themselves to be married (as well as the KG at ToJ considering them to be married), as you seem to acknowledge, so I am not sure what you are really trying to demonstrate.

In my mind, they were only actually married if the ceremony was legal and all that. Maybe you could find a drunk enough septon to marry you to your horse, but that doesn't mean you're really married to a horse in the eyes of anyone but yourself. If Rhaegar wanted to try to cite precedent that this was a normal Targaryen practice, his only options are a guy who took a second wife in a Valyrian wedding before conquering Westeros, and another who it just so happens warred with the Faith for his entire reign.

[RumHam]

If they had a ceremony in front of a heart tree, then they are married. It's not just that they considered themselves married. Northern marriages are just has valid south of the Neck as they are north of the neck.

Yes, this would be different than if they married in the eyes of the Faith. They would be married in the eyes of the old gods. I bet the Faith would still oppose it. Not because it was a tree-wedding but because of the polygamy. In a legal sense/the eyes of the crown I honestly don't know. I mean we don't have any examples of anyone using a weirwood wedding to skirt the issue and take a second wife. If that was some kinda loophole I'm sure someone would have thought of it before.

[UnmaskedLurker]

In my mind, they were only actually married if the ceremony was legal and all that. Maybe you could find a drunk enough septon to marry you to your horse, but that doesn't mean you're really married to a horse in the eyes of anyone but yourself. If Rhaegar wanted to try to cite precedent that this was a normal Targaryen practice, his only options are a guy who took a second wife in a Valyrian wedding before conquering Westeros, and another who it just so happens warred with the Faith for his entire reign.

What I was asking that I still don't think this answers is what you are really getting at by this point. Are you suggesting that Rhaegar would know the marriage would be challenged and therefore he would not have bothered to try? Or are you simply making the academic argument that even assuming Rhaegar did "marry" Lyanna, we have reason to believe it would not have been recognized?

If you mean the first, then your point is relevant to the analysis of the evidence for whether R&L were married. If you mean the second, then your point is only relevant to what sort of objection might be raised if Jon is ever considered as the rightful King (assuming such an "attempted" polygamous marriage is demonstrated sufficiently). Or perhaps you have a third meaning that I have not considered, but would be interested to understand.

[RumHam]

What I was asking that I still don't think this answers is what you are really getting at by this point. Are you suggesting that Rhaegar would know the marriage would be challenged and therefore he would not have bothered to try? Or are you simply making the academic argument that even assuming Rhaegar did "marry" Lyanna, we have reason to believe it would not have been recognized?

If you mean the first, then your point is relevant to the analysis of the evidence for whether R&L were married. If you mean the second, then your point is only relevant to what sort of objection might be raised if Jon is ever considered as the rightful King (assuming such an "attempted" polygamous marriage is demonstrated sufficiently). Or perhaps you have a third meaning that I have not considered, but would be interested to understand.

I'm suggesting both as possibilities, becase I don't know if they were married or not. My reason for initially posting in this thread was to suggest that there may have been some policy change re: polygamy as part of Jaehaerys' compromise with the faith. As far as Rhaegar goes I just don't think they absolutely have to be married for story reasons. While it's totally possible that they were at least in some sense married, such a marriage had the potential to cause problems. These problems may have factored into Rhaegar's thinking about whether he should marry Lyanna or not. Personally I don't think he would have put much thought into marrying her, because he knew he already had a wife.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm suggesting both as possibilities, becase I don't know if they were married or not. My reason for initially posting in this thread was to suggest that there may have been some policy change re: polygamy as part of Jaehaerys' compromise with the faith. As far as Rhaegar goes I just don't think they absolutely have to be married for story reasons. While it's totally possible that they were at least in some sense married, such a marriage had the potential to cause problems. These problems may have factored into Rhaegar's thinking about whether he should marry Lyanna or not. Personally I don't think he would have put much thought into marrying her, because he knew he already had a wife.

Got it. I have many responses to these thoughts--but I think you are right that we have had this debate before and I have likely made most of these points to you in prior post, so I won't bother to lay out all of my evidence again. I will just leave any other readers who come along this post and are curious about these issues with the following thought--do we think Jon is The Prince that was Promised--A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified? If we do (and I certainly do), then he must be the Prince that was Promised and not the Bastard that was Promised.