Why does everyone hate the Lannisters?

[7-String]

20 people were not killed though. 3500 were. And none of them were there for a battle. Tywin here is simply trying to justify his actions and wash his hands of the blood, something Tyrion notes in his thoughts. It did not save any lives. It eliminated a current threat and insulted an entire half of the continent. The northern lords currently are in the midst of a war with each other, divided by loyalty to the Iron Throne and the Bolton usurpers and loyalists who remember the atrocity. Tywin is an expert at deflecting blame and denying hard truths. The only thing the Red Wedding saved was House Lannister money and soldiers. Tactically it was great for House Lannister, but no one should be in such denial to think it was for the greater good.

None of the commoners who died in the War of 5 Kings were "there for a battle".

But that still didn't stop Brynden Tully (who is pretty damn honourable) from burning his fields.

There's murder without honour. And there's murder with honour.

They are not the same, but the victim is still dead.

[JustAnObsessedFan]

Rhetorical Questions don't need answers. :cheers:

[Dofs]

I understand why some people hate Lannisters. But seriously, at the moment, I do not understand why people still call Lannisters evil and the villains after reading 5 books. Surely, in the beginning they were THE villains of ASOIAF. Now thought? The guy who was commanding the Lannister forces to do all the despicable things is dead. The psychotic boy who everyone hated is dead. Cersei, who is the biggest bitch in the series got paraded naked in front of a thousands and lost her power, glory, respect even of her own family. These three people were the core of Lannister evilness.

There is absolutely nothing that makes them villains anymore. All other family members outside of Tywin, his children and Joffrey generally are very nice people. Tyrion was never evil and a villain. Jaime seemed evil in the first two books but calling him like that now is just dumb.

Hating them is one thing, calling them what they are not is another.

[RainGhost]

I understand why some people hate Lannisters. But seriously, at the moment, I do not understand why people still call Lannisters evil and the villains after reading 5 books. Surely, in the beginning they were THE villains of ASOIAF. Now thought? The guy who was commanding the Lannister forces to do all the despicable things is dead. The psychotic boy who everyone hated is dead. Cersei, who is the biggest bitch in the series got paraded naked in front of a thousands and lost her power, glory, respect even of her own family. These three people were the core of Lannister evilness.

There is absolutely nothing that makes them villains anymore. All other family members outside of Tywin, his children and Joffrey generally are very nice people. Tyrion was never evil and a villain. Jaime seemed evil in the first two books but calling him like that now is just dumb.

Hating them is one thing, calling them what they are not is another.

Evil is a strong word, yes. Most people (myself included) when we say 'I hate the Lannisters' it is mainly Tywin, Joffrey and Cersei. I haven't stopped hating Tywin and Joffrey just because they've died. Would you not say that Tyrion has turned into a villain? He murdered his own father! Yes, Tywin had it coming but kinslaying is a very bad crime. And Jaime's current redemption arc does not wash clean his previous crimes.

But yes, as of the end of ADwD, the Lannisters are not as bad as they were. In AGoT the Lannisters were very much the bad guys and the Starks the good guys but I think it's evened out now. The really despicable Lannisters have died/reformed/lost power and after what's happened to the Starks, they've started to become darker (especially Arya). But I still hate the Lannisters - they did kind of start the whole thing and are responsible for probably most of the atrocious acts in the books.

[ChillyPolly]

But seriously, at the moment, I do not understand why people still call Lannisters evil and the villains after reading 5 books.

Because, after 5 books, they still have not changed, except for the worse.

The guy who was commanding the Lannister forces to do all the despicable things is dead.

He was never a major character.

The psychotic boy who everyone hated is dead.

He was never a major character.

Cersei, who is the biggest bitch in the series got paraded naked in front of a thousands and lost her power, glory, respect even of her own family.

I'm sure GRRM will succeed in making us feel sorry for Cersei by the time he is through with her. But she is still a villain.

These three people were the core of Lannister evilness.

Sure, if we don't consider that wife-raping, teenager-strangling, father-killing, self-pitying, singer-stewmaking, Vale-ravaging, whore-brutalizing monster Tyrion Lannister, who feels sorry for himself because the gold spoon he was born in his mouth is not enough for him, and who was last observed plotting the death of his own niece. And Jaime's not so nice either, and probably getting worse.

If you were a winemaker whose son had been murdered by a vicious thug, what would you think of the type of ruler who gave the thug a medal? You'd think he was an evil bastard who cared more about power than justice. And you'd be right.

[LordStoneheart]

None of the commoners who died in the War of 5 Kings were "there for a battle".

But that still didn't stop Brynden Tully (who is pretty damn honourable) from burning his fields.

There's murder without honour. And there's murder with honour.

They are not the same, but the victim is still dead.

Two wrongs make no right. And Tywin has much more commoner blood on his hands than anyone.

[Dofs]

Evil is a strong word, yes. Most people (myself included) when we say 'I hate the Lannisters' it is mainly Tywin, Joffrey and Cersei. I haven't stopped hating Tywin and Joffrey just because they've died. Would you not say that Tyrion has turned into a villain? He murdered his own father! Yes, Tywin had it coming but kinslaying is a very bad crime. And Jaime's current redemption arc does not wash clean his previous crimes.

But yes, as of the end of ADwD, the Lannisters are not as bad as they were. In AGoT the Lannisters were very much the bad guys and the Starks the good guys but I think it's evened out now. The really despicable Lannisters have died/reformed/lost power and after what's happened to the Starks, they've started to become darker (especially Arya). But I still hate the Lannisters - they did kind of start the whole thing and are responsible for probably most of the atrocious acts in the books.

How is Tyrion a villain? Is he fighting a hero and a hero needs to stop him? And by the end of Dance of Dragons, he is obviously not swinging to a villain side. Like at all.

Jaime's current arc makes him not a villain.

Because, after 5 books, they still have not changed, except for the worse.

What? How exactly?

He was never a major character.

That's not an argument as he is one of the major reasons why Lannisters were the villains.

He was never a major character.

Same with Tywin, Joffrey is one of the major reasons why Lannisters were the villains.

I'm sure GRRM will succeed in making us feel sorry for Cersei by the time he is through with her. But she is still a villain.

Again what's your point here? Also, GRRM has given her a lot chapters and only made her worse in them.

Sure, if we don't consider that wife-raping, teenager-strangling, father-killing, self-pitying, singer-stewmaking, Vale-ravaging, whore-brutalizing monster Tyrion Lannister, who feels sorry for himself because the gold spoon he was born in his mouth is not enough for him, and who was last observed plotting the death of his own niece. And Jaime's not so nice either, and probably getting worse.

If you were a winemaker whose son had been murdered by a vicious thug, what would you think of the type of ruler who gave the thug a medal? You'd think he was an evil bastard who cared more about power than justice. And you'd be right.

All of this does not make Tyrion a villain. He is one of the main characters and unless GRRM is setting him up to become an antagonist to a hero (whoever he will be), then Tyrion will be a villain. And that's not happening and you perfectly know it. Tyrion is not a villain by definition and that doesn't make him evil as well. All you have written only makes him unlikeable to you and that's it.

Jaime becoming worse is some revolutionary opinion. You are literally the first one I see to say it, like ever.

Seriously, someone can claim that Lannisters are villains only if he finished reading the second book and stopped. By the end of book 5 the Lannister vs Stark conflict is over. They are not the villains of the story anymore. And if calling Lannisters evil held water in the beginning, now the number of good or at least not evil Lannisters greatly outnumber the evil ones, even the dead ones. Lannister is just a family name. It's not a type of a policy or a way how people behave. Tywin was arguably evil, Joffrey definitely was, Cersei is. The Lannisters are not evil. Or good. That's just a name.

[LordStoneheart]

Wrong. I still claim they are the villains because as ShadowCat said "they" are the Lannister. as in House Lannister. The Lannsiter Collective. Lannister Incorporated. Leeman Brothers. Whatever you want to call them.

As a whole, they have been complete shit to Westeros. Individually they haven't been much better either. Just because the worse individual ones have fallen doesn't mean their house has been any better.

[Bittersteel Targaryan]

Except for Joff and Cersei I think the other Lannisters are smart and pragmmatic. As for Rhaenys and Aegon what would you have done as Tywin. In countless wars children of successors are killed and even those of common folk. Jaime will redeem himself I'm sure and I hope he saves Tommen before the Iron Throne tears him into ribbons.

[Woman of War]

Wrong. I still claim they are the villains because as ShadowCat said "they" are the Lannister. as in House Lannister. The Lannsiter Collective. Lannister Incorporated. Leeman Brothers. Whatever you want to call them.

As a whole, they have been complete shit to Westeros. Individually they haven't been much better either. Just because the worse individual ones have fallen doesn't mean their house has been any better.

"They" is not a particularly differenciated approach.

I believe one of the biggest strengths in Martin's books is that every character has come to life as individual. There aren't "the" Orcs, good guys vs bad guys, there are guys and girls who have a life, a story and motives. And sometimes their stories clash. Characters we root for may come into conflict with other characters we root for and still they are both perceived as morally more or less nuanced. Actually the Brienne/Sandor fight in the series was an interpretation, a field study of this. Martin explicitely does not want us to spare these conflicts, he doesn't want to make it easy for us, taking us by the hand: Look, these are the ones to root for, the heroes of the story! Any storyline superficially pointing into that direction at the beginning may be a very big red herring in the end.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

"They" is not a particularly differenciated approach.

I believe one of the biggest strengths in Martin's books is that every character has come to life as individual. There aren't "the" Orcs, good guys vs bad guys, there are guys and girls who have a life, a story and motives. And sometimes their stories clash. Characters we root for may come into conflict with other characters we root for and still they are both perceived as morally more or less nuanced. Actually the Brienne/Sandor fight in the series was an interpretation, a field study of this. Martin explicitely does not want us to spare these conflicts, he doesn't want to make it easy for us, taking us by the hand: Look, these are the ones to root for, the heroes of the story! Any storyline superficially pointing into that direction at the beginning may be a very big red herring in the end.

By "they", I believe that Lord Stoneheart was referring to House Lannister, in the way I made the distinction in my post above.

Just for clarification.

[Bittersteel Targaryan]

Yeah not true at all, I don't watch the tv show and I hate the Lannisters with the fire of a billion sons.

Tywin was a monster he's a mass murderer who has had babies murdered and women. He had Elia and her children brutally murdered. He had a child gang raped, he is the reasons Jaime/Cersei exist two other monsters, the RW, the stealing and vandalism or Ice, terrorizing the Riverlands, sacking Kings Landing and he's a very horrible monster.

Jaime is evil he's pushed a child to cover up him having sex with his equally evil sister/queen, he is responsible for TWot5Ks, he killed Jory just to reprimand Ned, he helped create Joffery and that is enough to hate him, he's a bitch just a man made bitch!!!

Cersei is also evil, only evil could create Joffery, she's also crazy and delusional, I hate her so very much. She also is the cause of TWot5ks

Tyrion is a whiner who has also done terrible things I don't hate him but I'm not delusional either about him. He's entitled and violent

Keven has been the right hand men of the devil himself(Tywin)for for most of his life flowing Tywin's evil orders without question and continues to worship a monster. Keven was also evil.

Lancel, Devan, even Tommen and Myrcella are not so bad but I hate all Lannisters

In many wars there are children who are murdered and I don't believe he specifically instructed the mountain to rape Elia like Generals don't instruct their soldiers to rape women but it still happens that is just war. Also Jon in the beginning was a whiner no one ever mentions that.It was Tyrion who told hiim to wear his title proudly and no one will ever hurt him.

[7-String]

Wrong. I still claim they are the villains because as ShadowCat said "they" are the Lannister. as in House Lannister. The Lannsiter Collective. Lannister Incorporated. Leeman Brothers. Whatever you want to call them.

As a whole, they have been complete shit to Westeros. Individually they haven't been much better either. Just because the worse individual ones have fallen doesn't mean their house has been any better.

Basically, you're going by House loyalty and can't see people for what they really are beyond the colour of their sigil. People.

They've been pretty good to Westeros btw. How have Tywin / Kevan / Tyrion been worse than the Starks, Greyjoys or Targaryens? The Targaryens and Greyjoys invaded Westeros and burned villages and cities. The Lannisters are a noble house who kill their enemies in war time (like all the other houses), save their own skin first and have one or two sick loonies in their midst - Cersei and Joffrey.

[7-String]

I can never understand how people think Tyrion is a villian btw.

Are you seriously blaming him for marrying Sansa... That's like blaming Robert for marrying Cersei. Is it wrong to want to have sex with your wife? And when has he actually raped anyone? Only once - Tysha.

Tyrion is pretty much the main hero of the series.

In fact, Tyrion's POV is probably the one GRRM identifies with most closely.

Strip away all the characters there as plot devices, ASOIAF is pretty much "Tyrion's Story" and "Arya's Story"

(Jon and Dany too but they are epic characters that are central to global events. Tyrion and Arya are two characters who don't mean anything on a large scale but you are meant to feel for them)

[ChillyPolly]

How is Tyrion a villain? Is he fighting a hero and a hero needs to stop him?

No. There is another meaning. Check a good dictionary. It should be pretty clear, from the reasons I gave, what meaning I had in mind.

And by the end of Dance of Dragons, he is obviously not swinging to a villain side. Like at all.

Well, he allowed Illyrio to convince him to stop plotting the death of Myrcella, and instead go look for Dany. On the way, he paid a pimp, kidnapper and slaver to permit him to rape an abused girl. He has not murdered Penny .... yet. Apart from that, I don't know what you mean.

Jaime's current arc makes him not a villain.

Disagree. Sorry. There was even a scene where he was explicitly invited to repent, and his reaction was one of scorn. This from a man who has thrown a little boy off a high tower.

What? How exactly?

Re Tyrion. He gang-raped his wife, murdered Symon, murdered Shae, murdered his father (and not for justice), was an accessory-after-the-fact to the murder of the wineseller's son, armed the mountain clains and sent them to rape and pillage in the Vale spurred by his vengeful ambition to turn it into a smoking wasteland, blackmailed Lancel, plotted the death of Myrcella, paid a pimp and kidnapper to permit him to rape an enslaved girl. At the beginning of of the story he bore resentment against a man who lent him his coat, and at the end of book 3 he swore vengeance against a man who saved his life.

That's not an argument as he is one of the major reasons why Lannisters were the villains.

I don't think Tywin is a major reason why "the Lannisters are the villains". I think the 3 major reasons why the Lannisters are the villains are Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion. But certainly, as to Tywin, I would have no difficulty coming up with examples of evil behavior on his part.

Again what's your point here? Also, GRRM has given her a lot chapters and only made her worse in them.

What's YOUR point? If you don't disagree with what I am saying, then why are you arguing? Yes, Cersei is a villain.

All of this does not make Tyrion a villain. He is one of the main characters and unless GRRM is setting him up to become an antagonist to a hero (whoever he will be), then Tyrion will be a villain.

Tyrion is a villain (a man who does alot of evil) regardless of whether GRRM is setting him up as an antagonist of a hero. Check a good dictionary.

And that's not happening and you perfectly know it.

Do I? GRRM has set up 6 main characters (Jon, Dany, Bran, Arya, Sansa and Tyrion). I would be shocked if at least some of them did not end up as mortal enemies in mortal conflict with each other by the time the series closes.

Jaime becoming worse is some revolutionary opinion.

His become worse is just a theory regarding his future are - a prediction that may or may not come true - based on clues I have picked up which I may or may not be misinterpreting. But I am certainly not the only poster to be unimpressed by his so-called "redemption arc".

Seriously, someone can claim that Lannisters are villains only if he finished reading the second book and stopped.

I read all 5 books, so I guess I'm an exception that disproves your rule. But I don't count Lancel, Tommen or Myrcella as villains. I have nothing in particular against Keven either.

Lannister is just a family name.

I know. I am merely saying that most of the major Lannister characters are indeed evil. Nobody is arguing that Rosamund Lannister must be evil merely because her last name is Lannister.

[ChillyPolly]

I can never understand how people think Tyrion is a villian btw.

Can you seriously not think of anything seriously bad he has done?

[Game Of Thrones]

Also, "everyone" would include Cersei. Does Cersei hate the Lannisters?

[The Wolves]

In many wars there are children who are murdered and I don't believe he specifically instructed the mountain to rape Elia like Generals don't instruct their soldiers to rape women but it still happens that is just war. Also Jon in the beginning was a whiner no one ever mentions that.It was Tyrion who told hiim to wear his title proudly and no one will ever hurt him.

What does Jon being a whiner have to do with anything? Jon is still a better human being than any Lannister.

And no children dying in wars is very preventable.

Tywin being the deceitful monster he is lied to get into the Red Keep to kill the Targaryens. Aegon, Rhaenys, and Elia did not have to die that day. Tywin also did not have to kill anybody to prove his loyalty, House Greyjoy also did not fight in RR but they did not kill children to prove their loyalty to Robert that's disgusting to excuse the unnecessary murder of babies on the excuse that "children die in war"when these deaths were 100% preventable and unnecessary.

[BastardlyRock]

Jon is still a better human being than any Lannister.

Aww, c'mon now let's be fair. We don't even know all the Lannisters! What if there were once a Lancel the Charitable? Or a Tylos the Altruistic? ;)

[RainGhost]

How is Tyrion a villain? Is he fighting a hero and a hero needs to stop him? And by the end of Dance of Dragons, he is obviously not swinging to a villain side. Like at all.

Jaime's current arc makes him not a villain.

OK, I have no idea what you mean about the hero part, so I'm just gonna ignore that. Tyrion is one of my favourite characters and I think he's fundamentally morally good but he's done some questionable things, the biggest one imo being the murder of his own father. He's GRRM's favourite character because he's grey but since ASoS, he's definitely been a darker shade of grey. It's like Arya - she's even more a favourite character but she's also turning into a villain. I can love these two characters and accept that they're both going down dark paths. That doesn't mean there's no hope for them and they're only killing 'bad guys' but they're treading a thin line.

Jaime's a difficult one. Redemption doesn't erase past acts and whilst Jaime's more honourable than Tyrion, I think Tyrion has a better fundamental idea of right and wrong, if that makes sense. Jaime was definitely a villain at the start, I don't believe he is atm but he can still go back down that path very easily.