Why Stannis can never win the Iron Throne

[Bronn Urgandy]

I think show Stannis is merely nastier than book Stannis because he doesn't deliberate like book Stannis, fewer half measures. Disobey an order? Dead. Killing an innocent to save everybody? Not that hard a choice for a stern, practical man. He's just a proper, flat out soldier.

Not sure him sitting the Iron Throne would be entirely satisfying for anybody, which is why its a must, in my mind. The Baratheon dynasty continues, Stannis is miserable. As far as show Stannis is concerned, I just want him to chop the top of the Night's King's head off for having the audacity to wear a crown in Stannis' realm.

And have a conversation with him beforehand,

"If you fight us, hundreds of you will die"

"Thousands."

[Talking Hodor]

Stannis has a mountain of snow between him and the Iron Throne. When spring finally comes around, they'll find him spooning with Theon and Asha in the Winterfell greenhouses while someone who has contributed significantly to the fight against the Others (dragons, being at the wall and fighting, for example), rather than slaughtering a bunch of wildlings that would have been your best assets against the frosties, will be ruling.

[Deviled Cleg]

I think the restrictions of making a TV show narrows the scope for D&D. George is able to take his time and make sure that every bit of dialogue and conduct of character is building towards the end game or a serious development.

D&D are unable to do this due to the lack of time to include every bit of info that we know about these characters from the reading. They are forced to use a single event to represent several. This takes away from the overall growth of the character. It also can paint a skewed image of what they intend based on interpretation. I think they are trying to show Stannis' iron will, strong resolve, and utter inability to be loved by the people. They also try to show that he is driven by honor and duty, is a good judge of right and wrong, and is not motivated by greed. Without inner monologue this is hard to do because from the reading we know he is very torn by his decisions and a complex and dynamic character, yet in the show he comes across as a very stagnant character.

I believe that they are doing the best that they can to depict this epic series in limited time constraints and budget, but i do not believe that this is a reason to predict endgame scenarios one way or another.

[The Drunkard]

I wouldn't use D&D as a guide for anything.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Stannis is not a POV character and will not be the ultimate "hero" of the book. He will not sit on the IT and likely will be dead long before the endgame is played out. While D&D are not particularly relevant to determining specific plot points in the book, they are relevant to the overall ending for the characters. As sj4iy has pointed out quite clearly, D&D have been told the actual outcome for each character and for the most part will stick to the plan. Yes, certain details inevitably will be altered, but the gist of the resolution for the main characters will be the same as the book. So the positioning of characters in the HBO show can be somewhat useful to analyze the endgame for the character in very broad strokes. I am not sure why these concepts are so controversial, as they seem pretty self-evident to me.

[BastardlyRock]

Stannis is not a POV character and will not be the ultimate "hero" of the book. He will not sit on the IT and likely will be dead long before the endgame is played out. While D&D are not particularly relevant to determining specific plot points in the book, they are relevant to the overall ending for the characters. As sj4iy has pointed out quite clearly, D&D have been told the actual outcome for each character and for the most part will stick to the plan. Yes, certain details inevitably will be altered, but the gist of the resolution for the main characters will be the same as the book. So the positioning of characters in the HBO show can be somewhat useful to analyze the endgame for the character in very broad strokes. I am not sure why these concepts are so controversial, as they seem pretty self-evident to me.

Exactly! Take Jaime, for instance, who is now going to be in Dorne apparently, which gives us a lot of insight into what will happen with him since in the books he's in the Riverlands with Brienne and he's about to (presumably) be taken to Lady Stoneheart, who doesn't exist in the show, so we can now extrapolate that.... wait, I have no idea. ;)

[sj4iy]

Exactly! Take Jaime, for instance, who is now going to be in Dorne apparently, which gives us a lot of insight into what will happen with him since in the books he's in the Riverlands with Brienne and he's about to (presumably) be taken to Lady Stoneheart, who doesn't exist in the show, so we can now extrapolate that.... wait, I have no idea. ;)

We don't know whether she exists in the show or not. She very well may and just hasn't been introduced. Or if she has been cut, someone else may take her place in the BWB. We also don't know how long Jaime will be in Dorne or what he will be doing there. It's way, WAY too early to extrapolate anything as of yet.

[BrienneofQarth]

I think we are assuming here, that GRRM's ultimate goal is to have anyone sit on the Iron Throne at the end of the series.

I don't think Stannis will even survive TWoW. Winter has been coming for many thousands of pages, and I think it is about to take some serious lumps out of the character list.

[BastardlyRock]

We don't know whether she exists in the show or not. She very well may and just hasn't been introduced.

Here's to hoping that comes true :cheers: It would serve as some small consolation.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Exactly! Take Jaime, for instance, who is now going to be in Dorne apparently, which gives us a lot of insight into what will happen with him since in the books he's in the Riverlands with Brienne and he's about to (presumably) be taken to Lady Stoneheart, who doesn't exist in the show, so we can now extrapolate that.... wait, I have no idea. ;)

sj4iy answered you a bit, and I agree with his points, but I will expand. I agree that it is not too late for HBO to introduce Lady Stoneheart. But even if they do not, and even if Jaime is taking actions different than in the book, it does not contradict my point. D&D are taking a somewhat different route to the endgame. So we cannot conclude that any particular event in the book will happen in the series (or vice versa when the series overtakes the books). But my point was that they are going to same endgame. None of the issues you raise tells us anything about the endgame for the main characters. Jaime being in a different location and partaking in different events perhaps only tells us that whatever Jaime did in the Riverlands is not critical to where he end up at the end of the series--and that D&D can get him to the same place a different way.

D&D are telling the same basic story, but obviously in a somewhat different way. So many plot points have been and will be altered. But the overall story arcs--particularly of the main characters--are consistent.

[BastardlyRock]

sj4iy answered you a bit, and I agree with his points, but I will expand. I agree that it is not too late for HBO to introduce Lady Stoneheart. But even if they do not, and even if Jaime is taking actions different than in the book, it does not contradict my point. D&D are taking a somewhat different route to the endgame. So we cannot conclude that any particular event in the book will happen in the series (or vice versa when the series overtakes the books). But my point was that they are going to same endgame. None of the issues you raise tells us anything about the endgame for the main characters. Jaime being in a different location and partaking in different events perhaps only tells us that whatever Jaime did in the Riverlands is not critical to where he end up at the end of the series--and that D&D can get him to the same place a different way.

D&D are telling the same basic story, but obviously in a somewhat different way. So many plot points have been and will be altered. But the overall story arcs--particularly of the main characters--are consistent.

I try not to get too into these but... I will say that regardless of how they get there, I do think that both the show and the books will end with the same major turnouts (same person sitting the IT, same major characters dead, etc.) ... and that's about the nicest thing I can say, so with that I'll bow out :D

So, I agree with you.

[UnmaskedLurker]

So, I agree with you.

Oh, in post #27, it seemed like you were not agreeing with me. Glad to know it was just a miscommunication, and we agree that D&D are broadly leading to the same overall place as the books but specific plot points will be different.

[sj4iy]

sj4iy answered you a bit, and I agree with his points, but I will expand. I agree that it is not too late for HBO to introduce Lady Stoneheart. But even if they do not, and even if Jaime is taking actions different than in the book, it does not contradict my point. D&D are taking a somewhat different route to the endgame. So we cannot conclude that any particular event in the book will happen in the series (or vice versa when the series overtakes the books). But my point was that they are going to same endgame. None of the issues you raise tells us anything about the endgame for the main characters. Jaime being in a different location and partaking in different events perhaps only tells us that whatever Jaime did in the Riverlands is not critical to where he end up at the end of the series--and that D&D can get him to the same place a different way.

D&D are telling the same basic story, but obviously in a somewhat different way. So many plot points have been and will be altered. But the overall story arcs--particularly of the main characters--are consistent.

Basically, "different roads lead to the same castle" :)

[BastardlyRock]

Oh, in post #27, it seemed like you were not agreeing with me. Glad to know it was just a miscommunication, and we agree that D&D are broadly leading to the same overall place as the books but specific plot points will be different.

We are in agreement on that - I was just having a bit of fun with the idea that Jaime is literally going in the opposite direction (south instead of north) after his time in KL. Slight snark intended, but I promise it was only slight :D -- I stand amongst those who believe the end will by and large be the same outcome, despite the roads taken to get there and the minor (or some less than minor) details changed. ;)

Basically, "different roads lead to the same castle" :)

:cheers:

[joluoto2]

The show and the book are not the same thing and there is no guarantee they'll have the same ending. From the look of thing the show is completely diverging from the book, so I doubt the same ending is even possible.

I think Stannis will die fighting the Others in the book. It's a fitting badass death for a badass character. Stannis might be the rightful king, but he's a soldier, not a ruler. Avoiding the throne where he wouldn't do well is really a mercy.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The show and the book are not the same thing and there is no guarantee they'll have the same ending. From the look of thing the show is completely diverging from the book, so I doubt the same ending is even possible.

Why do you doubt the same ending is possible for the major character? The path may be different in certain respects, but every indication is that the basic endgame will be the same. None of the divergence precludes getting to the same basic outcome in the end. Think about any decent adaptation of a book, like LotR or Hobbit. Sure, many of the plot points were altered for the movies, but the basic outcome for the characters were consistent with the books. Why would we expect anything different here?

[joluoto2]

Why do you doubt the same ending is possible for the major character? The path may be different in certain respects, but every indication is that the basic endgame will be the same. None of the divergence precludes getting to the same basic outcome in the end. Think about any decent adaptation of a book, like LotR or Hobbit. Sure, many of the plot points were altered for the movies, but the basic outcome for the characters were consistent with the books. Why would we expect anything different here?

Well from the look of things they're making Dorne without Arianne (obviously Dorne will have a completely different story with the main character from the book canon gone), Jaime going to Dorne (no Jaime in the Riverlands story), no Stoneheart. For every change they make the story diverge more and more. The characters in the show are diverging more and more from the characters in the books too (Tyrion not hating Jaime will probably radically alter the story the fate of both characters).

There will be main characters who has huge impact on the storyline cut completely, which in turn means the story again need huge alterations. Basically in the end, every divergence lead to more divergences which will lead to the ending that's logical and natural for the story told in the books, will be neither logical nor natural for the story and the characters in the show, which in turn mean the ending will be VERY different.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well from the look of things they're making Dorne without Arianne (obviously Dorne will have a completely different story with the main character from the book canon gone), Jaime going to Dorne (no Jaime in the Riverlands story), no Stoneheart. For every change they make the story diverge more and more. The characters in the show are diverging more and more from the characters in the books too (Tyrion not hating Jaime will probably radically alter the story the fate of both characters).

There will be main characters who has huge impact on the storyline cut completely, which in turn means the story again need huge alterations. Basically in the end, every divergence lead to more divergences which will lead to the ending that's logical and natural for the story told in the books, will be neither logical nor natural for the story and the characters in the show, which in turn mean the ending will be VERY different.

I understand your point but strongly disagree. I think every plot point alteration has been made knowing how they will eventually lead to the endgame. D&D said that the ending is "satisfying." They would not say that and then produce a different ending. They have basically said they are writing the same basic story. Do you think they are lying?

[BastardlyRock]

Well from the look of things they're making Dorne without Arianne (obviously Dorne will have a completely different story with the main character from the book canon gone), Jaime going to Dorne (no Jaime in the Riverlands story), no Stoneheart. For every change they make the story diverge more and more. The characters in the show are diverging more and more from the characters in the books too (Tyrion not hating Jaime will probably radically alter the story the fate of both characters).

There will be main characters who has huge impact on the storyline cut completely, which in turn means the story again need huge alterations. Basically in the end, every divergence lead to more divergences which will lead to the ending that's logical and natural for the story told in the books, will be neither logical nor natural for the story and the characters in the show, which in turn mean the ending will be VERY different.

While I agree the changes are numerous (and often unessary IMHO) I can't help but feel that changing the big outcomes would be rather unthinkable. Like I said, the winners or the BfD/DoD2 who sits the throne will most likely remain unchanged. But I honestly don't care either way, I mean it may change my opinion on the show from a -3 to -4 but at this point who's really counting :P

[joluoto2]

I understand your point but strongly disagree. I think every plot point alteration has been made knowing how they will eventually lead to the endgame. D&D said that the ending is "satisfying." They would not say that and then produce a different ending. They have basically said they are writing the same basic story. Do you think they are lying?

The ending might still be satisfying even if it's not the same ending as the books. Also, when they said they're writing the same story it was during past seasons. It just can't be the same story anymore. Feast/ Dance are incredible books but not TV friendly. George has said he will make even bigger battles and more crazy dragon action in the last two books, and the TV-show can't afford it, since they have barely had enough money to make the battle scenes thus far (George even said he's writing stuff that can't be made on a TV budget). They just have to diverge, and diverge greatly. And with great diversions come completely different conclusions.