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The Targaryen Madness Factor/Targaryen Double Standard


Kyoshi

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In most of the threads I've come across, especially the ones where Daenerys Targaryen is discussed in a somewhat negative light, I've seen her possible, inherited madness mentioned as one of the primary reasons for her alarming disapproval rate. Her actions are often weighed against those of other "morally superior" characters such as Jon, Stannis and Tyrion. From these comparisons it is often "unquestionably" concluded that she must be going mad like her father.



Here's where my confusion comes in: Jon is a suspected Targaryen, with Daenerys as his aunt and the Mad Aerys as his grandfather. Stannis has Targaryen heritage, his family tree isn't something with which I'm completely familiar. Tyrion, annoying as it is to me but somewhat relevant to this topic, is a theorised Targaryen. Given that Danerys's madness stems mainly from fans questioning her decisions and then looking at her family tree then going "ah, she's a Targaryen. The Mad Aerys's own daughter! What did we expect?" doesn't it stand that these other fan favourites could be susceptible to the potent madness that rears its head whenever Daenerys makes difficult decisions. They too, have had to make difficult decisions, no?



In these threads I've mentioned, most of the posters who look unfavourably upon Danenrys also happen to list Jon, Stannis or Tyrion as their favourite character or their preferred ruler on the Iron Throne. But these people have made some questionable decisions: from taking up a hungry Red God, to killing their fathers, to...well, whatever decision of Jon that's particularly disturbing (I honestly can't think of anything). Why is it that the potency of Targaryen madness only comes into play with Daenerys and Daenerys alone? Should't we be worried about every Targaryen descendant? We're all so eager to have Jon as a Targaryen yet at the same time so quick to condemn Danenrys for that same thing. Why?



I realsie this is a potential can of worms so I kindly ask that we remain civil. Remember these are fictional characters, let's not attack each other...pretty please :)



Update


I've also noticed that some people strongly dislike Daenerys because she is a Targaryen and by definition: self-righteous, entitled, delusional, has a superiority complex, inbred, etc. However, in most cases these same people like Jon and believe him to be the lost son of Rhaegar--brother of Daenerys. In fact, these people also seem to hope for Jon to be the son of Rhaegar, [a man born of the incestuous marriage between siblings], because it is believed that this will somehow afford Jon with "super powers" otherwise impossible.



Here is my question: why is being a Targaryen suddenly not so bad when Jon is in the picture yet somehow an unforgivable thing when speaking of Dany? I kid you not, I just saw a post a few minutes ago that went something like, "well, given her Targaryen entitled, self-righteousness...[insert any scathing comment]." Said poster had a Jon avatar [in my experience, our avatars reflect our preferences. I could be wrong :dunno:]. Anyway, that's the question plaguing my mind on this otherwise pleasant day.



I would also like to add, and perhaps to the detriment of the thread, that without abominations born of incest, Stannis would not be alive since he is a Targaryen descendant.


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BECAUSE THEY HATE DANY, THEY JEALOUS!!!



Kidding.




It's not only Dany, many others Targaryens had been under the microscope about this. Aegon, during the cyvasse game, for instance, also, that's one of the reasons people think Cersei is actually Aerys' daughter. Many other Targaryens across the history had been accused of being "mad" despite many of their actions I would simply label them as "wrong" or "miscalculated". but definitely not mad.



Whatsoever, imo, Dany has never proven to act in the moment of rage. Yes, the answer to the children crucifixion was probably her most stupid decision, but although a wrong one, it was a calculated decision she took, based on her wrong views of justice. Jon, otoh, has acted according to his raw feelings, like the time he just went and attacked Thorne, which could be taken as a "waking the dragon" moment.


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You have to differ:



In many of the big houses, there is a drop of targ-blood (e.g. a grandmother).


On the other side, there is the Targ-Family, practicing incest for a really long time, having the known effects.



So, yes, there are cases of mental illness among the other houes (take lysa), but everyone in westeros seems to know, that there is a high occurance of mad targs.



In the end, dany has to carry her families burden, people will always remember the big number of her cracy ancestors and look at her suspiciously.


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Daenerys gets accused of going mad because she acts like a person that is going mad. (All the blood of the dragon nonsense, the megalomaniac entitlement, her willingness to conquer and destroy civilizations simply because she believes it's her right to, the messiah complex, etc.)



Jon and Tyrion don't. That's all it boils down to, really.



I like the idea of Daenerys completely falling and becoming mad with power. The whole savior figure thing would be boring as hell.


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i think lots of those arguments are stemmed from hate and fans of other characters wishing her to fail mainly because i think they feel threatened their characters will been side tracked by danny...



one of the fine example is we can see yesterday in the other thread while speaking about Daario someone mentioned that they hate Danny because they are afraid of what she might to do to the characters they like i.e starks which is kind of silly reason to hate her because of that when we dont know what will happen in the books and same goes for all this theories about prophecies and her participation in the war of long night ....they feel she will steel the glory from their character and this again a pointless fear fans have because i have seen the same people argue about there will not be one hero but fall back into the same think when they want their character to be the one who gets all the glory



Danny in the books was often compared to Rhaegar and you can see that in the Wiki as well ....but you will hear people say Rhaegar was not what you call a sane one ....then what becomes of Jon as he is his father i know he is raised by NED and he will always be a stark in heart even if he comes to know about his parentage but since we are talking about genes it still there isnt it ...



Like JonCon'sRedBeard said one of the moment danny acted out of rage and questionable act is her crucification of slavers....but she doesnt enjoy doing that and she for sure didnt get a Hard on like many say how her father gets when he burns people.....



she questions herself about what she had done is right or not



the people in the book who question about Danny's madness are,



Ser barristan ,Quentyn Martell,Arianne Martell and Mace Tyrell



now we know how Ser barristan feels about Danny and Quentyn too saw how good she had been towards to him....many will say she laughed at him but quentyn himself says she was kind towards to him and didnt laugh at him




About Ariane Martell and Mace's view i will say it as similar to Danny's view on Ned Stark



Not alll the Targs are mad ...IIRC there are six or seven Targaryans considered as Mad and it includes Aerys and Viserys



it is known that there is magic in the blood of old Valyria like the Starks have ....one of the reasons they become mad can be for the fact that knowledge to control those magic has lost when Dragons died ...



King Jaehaerys had it right ,


madness and greatness are two sides of coin and everytime a Targaryen is born,he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.



and danny's coin not landed on the Madness side



and another thing she get blamed for is about she keeps on saying Blood of dragon and the only time she says this is




I am the blood of the dragon. Do not presume to teach me lessons



when daario proposes to kill all the slavers by calling out of their Pyramids for her marriage to Hizdar ...and for refusing to do that she gets blamed all the time ...



other than that time she mentions Blood of the dragon whenever she feels afraid



and in the last book she spent all her time worrying about becoming mad and running away from being the Blood of Dragon



ETA: when people talk about how GRRM felt that Aragorn ruled wisely for three hundred years and that where his books are different from LOTR ...he actually says that when talking about Danny ruling in MEEREEN


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Targaryen madness is overstated. And Dany is not mad nor is she showing any signs of madness.

Well, she walked into a fire (Drogo's funeral pyre) after having weird dreams. Apparently, other Targaryens have tried similar things before and died, which is then seen as typical Targaryen madness. In this case the outcome was different, but that's not really her conscious doing. She seems to have got it right by accident. (Or maybe it was "fate.")

Barristan Selmy, who knew qute a few Targs seems to think that some Targaryens are mad and others aren't, and decided that Dany belongs in the latter group.

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Well, she walked into a fire (Drogo's funeral pyre) after having weird dreams. Apparently, other Targaryens have tried similar things before and died, which is then seen as typical Targaryen madness. In this case the outcome was different, but that's not really her conscious doing. She seems to have got it right by accident. (Or maybe it was "fate.")

Barristan Selmy, who knew qute a few Targs seems to think that some Targaryens are mad and others aren't, and decided that Dany belongs in the latter group.

Dreams, in ASOIAF, are not to be disregarded. If the Targaryens before Dany had disregarded dreams then there would bo no Targaryens at all. They would have all died in Valyria with the rest of the dragon lords. So, I'd say taking dreams seriously is not a sign of madness, especially not with Targaryens who owe their continued existence to dreams.

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Well, she walked into a fire (Drogo's funeral pyre) after having weird dreams. Apparently, other Targaryens have tried similar things before and died, which is then seen as typical Targaryen madness. In this case the outcome was different, but that's not really her conscious doing. She seems to have got it right by accident. (Or maybe it was "fate.")

Many people are under the influence of dreams/prophecies and do things that are not rational, even selfdestructable.

If you think Dany is mad, so are Bran, Mel, Jojen, partly Cercei, Jaime, Jon and many more...

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Viserys may not of been mad... remember he had to practically raise his baby Sister alone, while being hunted by a King, called a "beggar" by everyone and mocked, and this would of impacted him mental stability. Sadly he took it out on his Sister and this may of caused her to start to loose it. and Dany may of been going mad with power (or at least mad to regain power).


Also we are not sure if Jon is alive or dead- and if they burn him (so he doesn't come back) he may be reborn and become mad like undead Cat.

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I love it when people claim Targaryen madness is overstated, as if those lunatics that took part in the first Dance were in any way sane. Even Targaryens say Targaryens are mad, who am I to disagree? They are causers of massive shitstorms and capable of cruelty that would make Ramsay Bolton blush. Saying Targaryens don't have a tendency to madness is, I am afraid, like saying the Boltons don't have a tendency to cruelty.



I wouldn't say Dany is mad though, self entitled, needlessly cruel, a causer of insane and avoidable shitstorms, but then the same accusations can be levelled at Stannis (not a cruel man, but the burnings) with only one key difference, we know Stannis is pursuing whats right at this point in the story, the Iron Throne is his by rights and has been ever since the Lords of the Seven Kingdoms bent their knee's to Robert and he died without any true born children, we know this, and he's got his head focused on the Others, the White Walkers, which is where it should be, he's fighting the battle that really matters, even if he isn't the true AA (the fact that he gets hate for this is fucking funny). Jury is out on Daenerys right now, so she will understandably get hate for the negatives of her actions. And yes, her reasoning is the reasoning of the lunatic, "I am right and righteous!" Jack the Ripper probably felt the same, but again, this is an accusation that can be levelled at many characters, such as Stannis, difference is we know they're on the right side, whereas again, jury is out on Danearys.


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Why would I do that? There have been hundreds of Targaryens, most of which neither you or I know about, but by all accounts Aeron Brightflame isn't an unusual occurence and in 300 years, they have got some real atrocities under their belts. Targaryen madness is delivered and explained to us from many sources in these novels, usually intelligent ones, why deny it? No one denys it when somebody says "the Boltons have always been as cruel as they are cunning." It just looks like hopeless fanboying to me, usually from Danearys fans, which is baffling, because a character should not be defined by their family. I am a Stannis fan, but that doesn't mean I have to like Baratheons any more than anyone else. Same goes with the Starks, who outside of Eddard and Sansa bring little emotion out of me. They're just poncy noble families with huge, gaping flaws.


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I love it when people claim Targaryen madness is overstated, as if those lunatics that took part in the first Dance were in any way sane.

I agree: Hightower madness is a very real thing.

Even Targaryens say Targaryens are mad, who am I to disagree?

The Targaryens say the Targaryens are great, I guess you agree with that, too.

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I agree: Hightower madness is a very real thing.

The Targaryens say the Targaryens are great, I guess you agree with that, too.

Nice try on trying to catch me out. Aegon the Conquerer and others have been great men and women, I would never deny that. I don't judge families based on individuals, I don't like Danearys, but why would I deny the greatness that has come before her? Or the madness?

These nasty bastards were riding about on Dragons burning all they could, thats not the Hightowers doing.

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Why would I do that? There have been hundreds of Targaryens, most of which neither you or I know about, but by all accounts Aeron Brightflame isn't an unusual occurence and in 300 years, they have got some real atrocities under their belts. Targaryen madness is delivered and explained to us from many sources in these novels, usually intelligent ones, why deny it? No one denys it when somebody says "the Boltons have always been as cruel as they are cunning." It just looks like hopeless fanboying to me, usually from Danearys fans, which is baffling, because a character should not be defined by their family. I am a Stannis fan, but that doesn't mean I have to like Baratheons any more than anyone else. Same goes with the Starks, who outside of Eddard and Sansa bring little emotion out of me. They're just poncy noble families with huge, gaping flaws.

Why would you do that? I dunno, maybe to back up your claim it is not overstated. Of the known Targaryens how many could could be classified as mad? How many Targaryen kings were mad?

Then you have certain Targaryens who turned mad but were not born mad. Viserys and Aerys 2 for example.

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Nice one on naming mad Targs. The second ever Targ King was also a roaring lunatic as well, I reckon, this isn't me trying to drag them down to promote others, Stark, Baratheon, Tully, whatever, they're all flawed. But Targaryen madness is presented to us from characters well versed in Westeros history, much better than us.


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