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What do you feel about the romanticization of Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna's story?


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Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the rebellion days of Westeros and the damage caused. Since my top three favorite Houses of Westeros are Targaryen, Martell, and Stark, I definitely want to discuss about the turn of events causing the Rebellion. Especially addressing the wrongly romanticized story of Elia and Lyanna + Rhaegar. It bothers me to a degree of how these fangirls continue to talk about their story like this. I feel bad for Elia and Lyanna for being subjects of romanticization which caused deaths of their families, countrymen, and even themselves just for the sake of creating an illusion of a tragic love story which fans play around with, morphing it to be a 'cute' and 'beautifully tragic' tale off love. Now, I'm not going to go rant about this right now but I would like to hear your thoughts about the Trio.


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Out of interest, are you including Dany as one of these "fangirls"? For example:



If [Daario] loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. Even if her captain was mad enough to attempt it, the Brazen Beasts would cut him down before he got within a hundred yards of her.



Because I'd hazard the guess that the way it's romanticized as a love story in-story might have something to do with why many think some type of romance was involved.


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On Elia: Whether or not she was personally affected by Rhaegar's escape (and we don't know that she was, because they were an organized match and we're never told that she loved him except in the show, and we're told more explicitly that Rhaegar didn't love her), it's morally douchey that he escaped and humiliated her in front of everyone twice. Douchey move on Rhaegar's part.



On Lyanna and Rhaegar: I just want everyone who insists that they never loved each other to answer this one question: Why would they, then, die with each other's memory on their minds? He died saying her name, she died holding the flowers he gave to her. If I personally held someone prisoner somewhere and raped him/her and had no feelings for them, I wouldn't say their name while dying. And if I was being kept prisoner by some older guy somewhere and raped repeatedly, I wouldn't touch any flowers that he gives me in attempts to look less creepy, let alone clutch them while dying.



The result to their actions SHOULDN'T HAVE caused all that blood. Am I saying it wasn't wrong and reckless? Nope. It was natural that it should cause some bad shit, but not THAT bad. I'm saying that Brandon shouldn't have gone on a suicide mission to King's Landing, Aerys shouldn't have been a murderous pyromaniac and shouldn't have called for Ned's and Robert's heads for absolutely nothing, and Jon Arryn, Robert and Ned shouldn't have moved without thinking of all the blood that will flow either, and Tywin shouldn't have let his soldiers rape and pillage King's Landing.


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disregarding the fangirls comment, I'd say there's too much unknown for a real opinion at this point. more importantly, I think there's too many layers to all three of these characters to think that there's an easy explanantion and if/when we get one it will be just as polarizing as it is now.



Basic principles:


I do think Rhaegar and Lyanna felt what might have been love for each other


I think something very important must have happened for Rhaegar to leave Elia


I think Elia plays a little bit of the Catelyn Stark figure here. She was not pleased but nonetheless probably kept her pride and dignity about the affair


I think Rhaegar shares blame but not all the blame


I think Lyanna and him were drawn to each because neither was truly happy with their situation and this mutual feeling of apprehension formed a stronger bond between them than if they had met without the circumstances.

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Honestly, it annoys me somewhat. Mostly because of Rhaegar's piss-poor treatment of Elia. Fans of Rhaegar who want to insist he did no wrong say that Elia must have been: totally OK with Rhaegar publicly shaming her at Harrenhal, totally OK with him running off with a hotter, younger woman, totally OK about being left with Rhaegar's crazy father, totally OK about having only one Kingsguard protecting them whereas Lyanna got three and, finally, totally OK with Rhaegar marrying Lyanna, despite the obvious and real threat that Lyanna's children would pose to her own.



As for Rhaegar and Lyanna, I think they probably loved each other. Although I never really got why Lyanna would run off with Rhaegar, since the reason she supposedly didn't like Robert was that he wouldn't be faithful to her. And unless Elia was happy with Rhaegar marrying some other chick, then he is being unfaithful, whether it is legally accepted or not.



Obviously, Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't have predicted that a civil war would break out, but they did knowingly create a very tense political situation and leave Aerys to deal with it.


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As for Rhaegar and Lyanna, I think they probably loved each other. Although I never really got why Lyanna would run off with Rhaegar, since the reason she supposedly didn't like Robert was that he wouldn't be faithful to her. And unless Elia was happy with Rhaegar marrying some other chick, then he is being unfaithful, whether it is legally accepted or not.

That might actually be the reason, though. As in, she appealed to Rhaegar-- the Crown Prince-- to help her get out of an arranged marriage she didn't want.

To reframe this, I think it's more likely that this started out as something platonic like that, which later might have become romantic.

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Honestly, it annoys me somewhat. Mostly because of Rhaegar's piss-poor treatment of Elia. Fans of Rhaegar who want to insist he did no wrong say that Elia must have been: totally OK with Rhaegar publicly shaming her at Harrenhal, totally OK with him running off with a hotter, younger woman, totally OK about being left with Rhaegar's crazy father, totally OK about having only one Kingsguard protecting them whereas Lyanna got three and, finally, totally OK with Rhaegar marrying Lyanna, despite the obvious and real threat that Lyanna's children would pose to her own.

As for Rhaegar and Lyanna, I think they probably loved each other. Although I never really got why Lyanna would run off with Rhaegar, since the reason she supposedly didn't like Robert was that he wouldn't be faithful to her. And unless Elia was happy with Rhaegar marrying some other chick, then he is being unfaithful, whether it is legally accepted or not.

Obviously, Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't have predicted that a civil war would break out, but they did knowingly create a very tense political situation and leave Aerys to deal with it.

I agree with you but I don't think Rhaegar and Lyanna never thought their actions would have consequences. They must have thought that Lyanna's betrothed and her family would obvously be upset about the socalled 'kidnapping' and Elia's family for Rhaegar's abandonment, especially when R's own father was currently a psycho lunatic with Varys whispering to his ears. I agree the R/E/L is an interesting backstory, it just upsets me.

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As for Rhaegar and Lyanna, I think they probably loved each other. Although I never really got why Lyanna would run off with Rhaegar, since the reason she supposedly didn't like Robert was that he wouldn't be faithful to her. And unless Elia was happy with Rhaegar marrying some other chick, then he is being unfaithful, whether it is legally accepted or not.

The difference is, Rhaegar was being unfaithful to Elia, whereas Robert would be unfaithful to her.

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I think one of the strengths of ASOIAF is the way some events/episodes are presented from multiple points of view, so that we're not quite sure what the truth is and have to form our own perspectives and opinions. So Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna could be seen as a tragic romance (the kind of thing a suitable bard would make a play about a couple of centuries later), a case of the crown prince betraying his wife and putting his desires above the realm, or (assuming it was consensual and not an abduction) a selfish move by 'wolf-blooded' Lyanna to take advantage of Rhaegar's interest in her, maybe to escape from Robert. At the moment we (and other ASOIAF characters who only know the facts second-hand) are free to choose how to interpret it, and we will each emphasise what from it appeals to our own sensitivities.


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I agree with you but I don't think Rhaegar and Lyanna never thought their actions would have consequences. They must have thought that Lyanna's betrothed and her family would obvously be upset about the socalled 'kidnapping' and Elia's family for Rhaegar's abandonment, especially when R's own father was currently a psycho lunatic with Varys whispering to his ears. I agree the R/E/L is an interesting backstory, it just upsets me.

I definitely think that R+L thought that their actions would have consequences, I just don't think either could have predicted how out of hand the situation got. It was certainly a dumb move leaving Aerys in charge to deal with the resulting shitstorm.

The difference is, Rhaegar was being unfaithful to Elia, whereas Robert would be unfaithful to her.

That's an interesting possibility. It would cast Lyanna in rather a more negative light.

That might actually be the reason, though. As in, she appealed to Rhaegar-- the Crown Prince-- to help her get out of an arranged marriage she didn't want.

To reframe this, I think it's more likely that this started out as something platonic like that, which later might have become romantic.

It's definitely possible. Interestingly, in this case I think Lyanna would have many similar feelings as Jon Snow has when he's sleeping with Ygritte; it feels right and wonderful and good, but it's a betrayal of what the character stands for. Perhaps she felt like that anyway, but if it started out as platonic I think that those feelings would be stronger.

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About the faithful thing, let's compare Robert's type of unfaithfulness to Rhaegar's.



Robert probably had his dick in every single hole in Westeros. If he would cheat, he would do it daily, for no reasons at all, just for fun, and even though he'd probably be with a wife he loved and sought after.



Rhaegar (and I'm depending on what we know for sure +Ned's thought that R wouldn't go to brothels) only cheated once, for love, and he hadn't loved his wife (not love love). He wasn't cheating with whores just for fun, he cheated with one girl that he really loved.


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About the faithful thing, let's compare Robert's type of unfaithfulness to Rhaegar's.

Robert probably had his dick in every single hole in Westeros. If he would cheat, he would do it daily, for no reasons at all, just for fun, and even though he'd probably be with a wife he loved and sought after.

Rhaegar (and I'm depending on what we know for sure +Ned's thought that R wouldn't go to brothels) only cheated once, for love, and he hadn't loved his wife (not love love). He wasn't cheating with whores just for fun, he cheated with one girl that he really loved.

Given that Targs practiced polygamy for centuries, and with the knowledge we have, there's no definitive answer yet as to whether or not what Rhaegar did was cheating at all.

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Given that Targs practiced polygamy for centuries, and with the knowledge we have, there's no definitive answer yet as to whether or not what Rhaegar did was cheating at all.

Whether it is cheating or not really depends on how Elia saw it. If she was happy about it, fine. If she wasn't, it was cheating, regardless of whether it was 'technically' cheating.

About the faithful thing, let's compare Robert's type of unfaithfulness to Rhaegar's.

Robert probably had his dick in every single hole in Westeros. If he would cheat, he would do it daily, for no reasons at all, just for fun, and even though he'd probably be with a wife he loved and sought after.

Rhaegar (and I'm depending on what we know for sure +Ned's thought that R wouldn't go to brothels) only cheated once, for love, and he hadn't loved his wife (not love love). He wasn't cheating with whores just for fun, he cheated with one girl that he really loved.

I agree it's probably less worse, but it doesn't make it right. And if Lyanna's reason to reject Robert is that he would be unfaithful, well running off with a married man who is unfaithful to his wife, even if he loved Lyanna, does seem hypocritical.

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Honestly, it annoys me somewhat. Mostly because of Rhaegar's piss-poor treatment of Elia. Fans of Rhaegar who want to insist he did no wrong say that Elia must have been: totally OK with Rhaegar publicly shaming her at Harrenhal, totally OK with him running off with a hotter, younger woman, totally OK about being left with Rhaegar's crazy father, totally OK about having only one Kingsguard protecting them whereas Lyanna got three and, finally, totally OK with Rhaegar marrying Lyanna, despite the obvious and real threat that Lyanna's children would pose to her own.

As for Rhaegar and Lyanna, I think they probably loved each other. Although I never really got why Lyanna would run off with Rhaegar, since the reason she supposedly didn't like Robert was that he wouldn't be faithful to her. And unless Elia was happy with Rhaegar marrying some other chick, then he is being unfaithful, whether it is legally accepted or not.

Obviously, Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't have predicted that a civil war would break out, but they did knowingly create a very tense political situation and leave Aerys to deal with it.

Pretty much this. Book fans romanticise the situation between Rhaegar, Lyanna and Elia more than the characters in-universe do. The worst always like to push the scenario that Elia was okay with Rhaegar running off to fulfill the prophecy because:

  • She's Dornish and the sister of Oberyn Martell, so she must be sexually open-minded and thus okay with it (terrible theory).

She's secretly in love with Arthur Dayne, the best friend of Rhaegar (this is just fan-fiction).

She was actually in a relationship with Arthur, and might have had past sexual experiences with her brother (this one disgusts me the most).

We'll likely never know the true circumstances behind the events of 282AL because of the unreliable narrators and muddled memories of those who survived to live on 15 years later (Ned, Barristan, Jaime), but it's pretty clear Rhaegar was not a smart person, Elia was humiliated in front of the realm, and Lyanna involved in something she probably had little control over.

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Whether it is cheating or not really depends on how Elia saw it. If she was happy about it, fine. If she wasn't, it was cheating, regardless of whether it was 'technically' cheating.

Oh I see, I didn't realize that's how we were defining cheating...

Regardless, my same point stands. We don't have enough information to know if she approved or not, if Rhaegar actually married Lyanna or not, any of it.

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It's definitely possible. Interestingly, in this case I think Lyanna would have many similar feelings as Jon Snow has when he's sleeping with Ygritte; it feels right and wonderful and good, but it's a betrayal of what the character stands for. Perhaps she felt like that anyway, but if it started out as platonic I think that those feelings would be stronger.

Well, it's hard to say.

I guess my overall view of this is that we really don't have enough info yet to make real judgments about all this.

But I think the clue about how she didn't want to marry Robert and cited unfaithfulness probably implies that how this looks-- like Lyanna is a hypocrite or something-- is probably not the truth, and that there's more to the story.

I guess, we know she didn't want the marriage to Robert, so I think that might be a good starting point in figuring out her motivations. I really think it began as a way to avoid that for her. The Crown Prince is a logical figure for such an appeal. On the flipside, we know Rhaegar was fixated on prophesy. If he took the "song of ice and fire" thing to heart, then Lyanna's appeal to him would be something of a godsend to that end.

I guess, what I'm getting at is that it would make their actions look a lot more logical and consistent to their characters to consider that this began with Lyanna making a political appeal to Rhaegar, who accepted. Rhaegar, with prophesy on his mind, might have proposed a polygamous marriage as a solution to both of the issues they were concerned with. At some point, feelings of fondness developed or some such.

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Oh I see, I didn't realize that's how we were defining cheating...

Regardless, my same point stands. We don't have enough information to know if she approved or not, if Rhaegar actually married Lyanna or not, any of it.

Well, I was defining it based on how I think Lyanna would view it. If Elia was clearly upset by Rhaegar's second marriage, then I have a hard time believing that Lyanna would not view it as cheating. Of course, maybe Lyanna never knew how Elia felt about it.

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There are two separate issues--(1) what are the relevant facts and (2) what is a reader's interpretation of these facts. The OP seems to jump straight to the second point without nailing down the first point. Of course, we don't have enough information to know exactly what the relevant facts may be.



We know that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna after the tournament, but we don't know what he told Elia or how she took it.


We know that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, but we don't know for sure the surrounding circumstances.


If we surmise that Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love--and I think there are significant clues that they did--then we might be able to guess that they got married.


If they got married, we don't know what was explained to Elia or how she took it.


We know that Elia could not risk having a third child, so her marriage to Rhaegar was basically over from a sexual point of view as intimate relations would risk her life.



So it is not impossible to imagine that Rhaegar and Elia agreed that Rhaegar could marry Lyanna as a second wife. If that turns out to have been true, it adds to the romanticism of the relationship between R&L because he is not really cheating if his first wife accepts the second marriage and if the second marriage is really one of love (while the first was of duty).



Basically, it is too early to form any definitive conclusions because too many relevant facts remain unknown. But the facts we have and the educated guesses we can make do not make the story of R&L as a tragic love story that far fetched.

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Well, Rhaegar probably did love Lyanna by the time he died seeing as he dies with her name on his lips. I would almost consider this a fact. But did Rhaegar run away with Lyanna because he loved her or did he run away with her due to the Prophecy and later fell in love with her? I hope it's not the former because that just makes Rhaegar very irresponsible. As for Lyanna, I hope her agreeing to run away was also due to the Prophecy and not because she was infatuated with Rhaegar. If it's the latter, she comes across as a massive hypocrite.


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