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What do you feel about the romanticization of Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna's story?


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We know that Elia could not risk having a third child, so her marriage to Rhaegar was basically over from a sexual point of view as intimate relations would risk her life.

Your whole post is very sensible, and I wanted to add to this part of it. In light of how we're looking at a society where a woman's major job is produce heirs, the fact that Elia could no longer produce heirs would offer very compelling reason to have her set aside if Rhaegar so chose (there would be some political complications with Dorne, but the point stands that this is something Rhaegar could have done). It's rather unfortunate, but Elia wouldn't have much to stand on in terms of being against this arrangement from a kind of outside view. Put in Westerosi terms, she's not fulfilling her "duty" as wife to the Crown Prince.

And even with all this, Rhaegar doesn't choose to set her aside. So I think that might be another clue that there's some other arrangement that was made.

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There are two separate issues--(1) what are the relevant facts and (2) what is a reader's interpretation of these facts. The OP seems to jump straight to the second point without nailing down the first point. Of course, we don't have enough information to know exactly what the relevant facts may be.

We know that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna after the tournament, but we don't know what he told Elia or how she took it.

We know that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, but we don't know for sure the surrounding circumstances.

If we surmise that Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love--and I think there are significant clues that they did--then we might be able to guess that they got married.

If they got married, we don't know what was explained to Elia or how she took it.

We know that Elia could not risk having a third child, so her marriage to Rhaegar was basically over from a sexual point of view as intimate relations would risk her life.

So it is not impossible to imagine that Rhaegar and Elia agreed that Rhaegar could marry Lyanna as a second wife. If that turns out to have been true, it adds to the romanticism of the relationship between R&L because he is not really cheating if his first wife accepts the second marriage and if the second marriage is really one of love (while the first was of duty).

Basically, it is too early to form any definitive conclusions because too many relevant facts remain unknown. But the facts we have and the educated guesses we can make do not make the story of R&L as a tragic love story that far fetched.

Crown someone else queen of love and beauty is huge loss of face. Do you think Naerys have a damn about Aegon? No? Was crowning some else still bad and shameful? Hell to the yes.

No we can't, we can surmise he took from the road for his prophecy. Love too. But marriage is far from what we know. The KG weren't even suppose to be there but with Aerys. They could gone rogue and only be their as a oath to Rhaegar to protect her.

No it isn't just take moon tea, Asha and Arianne had 10 years of sexual experiences without once getting pregnant on the stuff.

Lyanna and her spawn are the bane of Aegon.

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On Rhaegar and Elia: that's not a love story. Wasn't supposed to be. I don't remember any hints of either being in love with another. If it happens, happens, but marriage in ASOIAF is foremost business.

On Rhaegar and Lyanna: there are, however, serious clues of a love story here. Her clutching a blue rose on her deathbed, him dying with a woman's name on his lips. What does irritate me, however, about the fans' interpretations of their story is that the author intentionally left huge gaps in it, in fact we have more gaps than actual story, but so many people seem not to mind and pass definite judgement nevertheless.

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Your whole post is very sensible, and I wanted to add to this part of it. In light of how we're looking at a society where a woman's major job is produce heirs, the fact that Elia could no longer produce heirs would offer very compelling reason to have her set aside if Rhaegar so chose (there would be some political complications with Dorne, but the point stands that this is something Rhaegar could have done). It's rather unfortunate, but Elia wouldn't have much to stand on in terms of being against this arrangement from a kind of outside view. Put in Westerosi terms, she's not fulfilling her "duty" as wife to the Crown Prince.

And even with all this, Rhaegar doesn't choose to set her aside. So I think that might be another clue that there's some other arrangement that was made.

No it isn't, she gave birth to his heir already. Only barren women can be set aside.
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No it isn't, she gave birth to his heir already. Only barren women can be set aside.

What's your source for how only barren women can be set aside? You know, when the characters talk about Ren's little plot to have Robert set Cersei aside for Marg, they all take that possibility seriously (from Cersei, to Pycelle, to Renly, to the Tyrells). And that's with Cersei's having an heir and a backup.

If she can't have more children (and there's only one male child in the mix, so there's no backup), then yea, Rhaegar could have easily set her aside for a new queen.

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Well, it just looks like a case of the nerd stole the jocks kinda unhappy girlfriend and they did the business, and then he got absolutely stomped for it, probably thought it was worth it too. You see it all the time in 80's movies, except everything usually works out for the best, but Robert had a bloody big hammer. *ahem* Romantising is quite annoying, because Rhaegar, being born to a life of privelege forgot his responsibility to his people. Being a Prince can't be all good, you have to sacrifice the little goodies that the commoners get, like being able to marry someone you love.



Another lesson, apart from don't fuck with people with big hammers, is that Targaryens shouldn't fight wars when they don't have dragons, or at least make sure they're fighting other Targaryens like they normally do.


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It's mostly :ack:



Yes, we lack some information. Nevertheless, taking off the rose-colored glasses, it's a serious injury to thousands/millions of lives. Talking these unavoidable consequences down is something that doesn't sit well with me.


And it's telling who romantices it in the books: Dany. Nobody but Dany.




Obviously, Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't have predicted that a civil war would break out, but they did knowingly create a very tense political situation and leave Aerys to deal with it.



Only because they are a madman and a teenager (not much of a difference actually). They couldn't predict that particular civil war, but the civil war between Aegon and Jon was pretty much guaranteed.


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What's your source for how only barren women can be set aside? You know, when the characters talk about Ren's little plot to have Robert set Cersei aside for Marg, they all take that possibility seriously (from Cersei, to Pycelle, to Renly, to the Tyrells). And that's with Cersei's having an heir and a backup.

If she can't have more children (and there's only one male child in the mix, so there's no backup), then yea, Rhaegar could have easily set her aside for a new queen.

( and I am going by memory, not near books or computer) marriages can only beside annulled if their are no children, or was not consummated.

Renly's plot never made any sense. I will bring you more information in future.

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Well, Rhaegar probably did love Lyanna by the time he died seeing as he dies with her name on his lips. I would almost consider this a fact. But did Rhaegar run away with Lyanna because he loved her or did he run away with her due to the Prophecy and later fell in love with her? I hope it's not the former because that just makes Rhaegar very irresponsible. As for Lyanna, I hope her agreeing to run away was also due to the Prophecy and not because she was infatuated with Rhaegar. If it's the latter, she comes across as a massive hypocrite.

Running away romantically with a guy whose wife had just almost died giving him an heir is hardly an example of shining character anyway. It's simply bad form. In their setting, women were fighters not in the way Lyanna scrambled to be. Their fight was in the birthing chamber. Rhaegar and Lyanna disregarded Elia's fight, humiliated her when she was at her weakest and then bam! strong Lyanna lost the fight that every woman in Westeros fought.

Ironic.

And please, can we finally stop giving Rhaegar credit for not wanting to kill his unwanted wife with another pregnancy? Nowhere in the text is it stated that a third pregnancy would have killed Elia. All we know is that there wouldn't be a third pregnancy. Like, there couldn't be. No one mentioned that Elia could get pregnant but couldn't carry the child to term... could get pregnant but not make it out alive... All that was mentioned was that there wouldn't be a third pregnancy, period. Not that Rhaegar was too sensitive and heroic to put Elia's life at risk.

Edit: the last bit was not addressed at you, Ser Eric, I just didn't want to make another post.

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What's your source for how only barren women can be set aside? You know, when the characters talk about Ren's little plot to have Robert set Cersei aside for Marg, they all take that possibility seriously (from Cersei, to Pycelle, to Renly, to the Tyrells). And that's with Cersei's having an heir and a backup.

If she can't have more children (and there's only one male child in the mix, so there's no backup), then yea, Rhaegar could have easily set her aside for a new queen.

Eh! I have it for you. It was part of a SSM. It says just lack of consummation.
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( and I am going by memory, not near books or computer) marriages can only beside annulled if their are no children, or was not consummated.

Renly's plot never made any sense. I will bring you more information in future.

If the Crown Prince wants to divorce his newly-barren wife, the Crown Prince can divorce his newly-barren wife. If Rhaegar wanted more heirs (for whatever reason), the justification of divorce on the basis that Elia could no longer have children would be ample pretext in the Westerosi mind. Even Dorne would find it difficult to press that too hard.

Eh! I have it for you. It was part of a SSM. It says just lack of consummation.

I don't think I'm talking about annulment (it wouldn't be that the marriage never happened). I'm talking about putting Elia aside.

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There are two separate issues--(1) what are the relevant facts and (2) what is a reader's interpretation of these facts. The OP seems to jump straight to the second point without nailing down the first point. Of course, we don't have enough information to know exactly what the relevant facts may be.

We know that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna after the tournament, but we don't know what he told Elia or how she took it.

We know that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, but we don't know for sure the surrounding circumstances.

If we surmise that Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love--and I think there are significant clues that they did--then we might be able to guess that they got married.

If they got married, we don't know what was explained to Elia or how she took it.

We know that Elia could not risk having a third child, so her marriage to Rhaegar was basically over from a sexual point of view as intimate relations would risk her life.

So it is not impossible to imagine that Rhaegar and Elia agreed that Rhaegar could marry Lyanna as a second wife. If that turns out to have been true, it adds to the romanticism of the relationship between R&L because he is not really cheating if his first wife accepts the second marriage and if the second marriage is really one of love (while the first was of duty).

Basically, it is too early to form any definitive conclusions because too many relevant facts remain unknown. But the facts we have and the educated guesses we can make do not make the story of R&L as a tragic love story that far fetched.

The problem with the idea that Elia was totally OK with Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying is that Elia would have to be stupid or naive to not see the dangerous political threat that Lyanna poses.

Basically, from Aegon's point of view, all siblings are something of a threat. That's why parents try to raise their children to be close to one another, so that their children don't fight over succession. Look at Stannis and Renly, or, if you want a Targaryen example, the Blackfyre rebellions (and that was just over a legitimised bastard). A sibling from a second marriage is even more of a threat. Particularly since Jon Targaryen would have significantly better support than Aegon. Aegon has the support of Dorne, one of the weakest of the Great Houses. Jon would have the North, the Riverlands, probably the Vale and probably the Tyrells as well (they have a long-standing enmity of the Dornish). If civil war should break out, like it did with the Blackfyres, then Elia's children are in a very dangerous position. Now, there's no guarantee that war will break out, but it's definitely possible. I mean for God's sake, if you take a second wife in Westeros, take it from a significantly weaker House to ensure that they pose minimal threat to your already existing children.

Most of Westeros would have seen one queen or the other as the true queen. Power resides where people believe it resides and if one is believed to be the true queen, that is where the Lords of Westeros will flock to. There are two main possibilities.

Elia's position at court would be significantly weakened. Rhaegar crowning Lyanna QoLaB and then marrying her would be seen as a very clear sign: Lyanna is Rhaegar's true wife and queen. It is not, therefore, hard to see why some may also see Lyanna's children as the true heirs.

Or Lyanna would be seen as little more than Rhaegar's mistress. Just because the Targaryens have practiced polygamy before doesn't mean the Lords of Westeros would treat the second wife as a real wife. Lyanna would be at court, surrounded by people who basically view her as a concubine and her children as little more than bastards.

I just don't believe that Elia was stupid or naive enough not to see how dangerous Lyanna was to her children. And, in my opinion, Rhaegar's treatment of Elia was all-round disgusting.

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If the Crown Prince wants to divorce his newly-barren wife, the Crown Prince can divorce his newly-barren wife. If Rhaegar wanted more heirs (for whatever reason), the justification of divorce on the basis that Elia could no longer have children would be ample pretext in the Westerosi mind. Even Dorne would find it difficult to press that too hard.

I don't think I'm talking about annulment (it wouldn't be that the marriage never happened). I'm talking about putting Elia aside.

Are you talk of banishment? Because I heard of no divorce.
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Are you talk of banishment? Because I heard of no divorce.

You've heard of no "divorces" in the royal family because polygamy was their typical work-around.

Seriously, you truly think that if Rhaegar wanted to put Elia aside he couldn't have? Where exactly do you think Westerosi "law" comes from in the first place? Congress?

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You've heard of no "divorces" in the royal family because polygamy was their typical work-around.

Seriously, you truly think that if Rhaegar wanted to put Elia aside he couldn't have? Where exactly do you think Westerosi "law" comes from in the first place? Congress?

"Old laws are good laws. Ancient laws are even better laws."

Law is what the people accept as the law, mostly because they grew up with it.

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You've heard of no "divorces" in the royal family because polygamy was their typical work-around.

Seriously, you truly think that if Rhaegar wanted to put Elia aside he couldn't have? Where exactly do you think Westerosi "law" comes from in the first place? Congress?

No, I think not. Set aside is annulment not divorce. Rhaegar can't, Elia gave him a heir. This Henry the VIII but worse.
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I think this is one of the most interesting sub-plots of the time immediately before the books. Like a lot of the other posters, I agree that Rhaegar and Lyanna should have seen that there would be consequences. I think they probably did just not as severe. I know Rhaegar knew his dad was bat-shit crazy, but I don't think he ever foresaw him going and murdering Rickard with the champion of fire while Brandon choked himself trying to save him. We have a lot of hints that Rhaegar ws planning to do something about his dad maybe even oust him from the crown. He had a lot of support. I also look at how people view Rhaegar and the most interesting are the supremely honorable Ned and Barriston. Both still viewed him in a favorable light even though he basically caused the deaths of the Targ line (as far as most people knew including Barriston) and from Ned's POV I don;t think he ever intended Jon to be a Targ. He may have wanted him to know his true heritage eventually, but never would have wanted him to pursue the crown.


Now we get to Elia, R + L. The way we hear people talk about Rhaegar, he reminds me of one of those crazy, charismatic cult leaders of our times like Warren Jeffs. If he was really like this, it would not have mattered the love side. He was fulfiling the prophecy in his mind. He would have had to have had words with Elia after the Tourney where he crowned Lyanna. If he was like this, could he not have convinced her that his action was right? He was convinced it would be a girl, so Elia would not have to worry about a rival heir to Aegon's claim. I tend to think the Elia knew more than she let on to everyone and may have been okay with everything. I know it is far-fetched, but there a lot of people that are okay with multiple marriages and multiple wives even in our modern times. Would she have been happy? No, but she knew who Rhaegar was and what he believed in (she was with him too long to not see his obsession with the prophecy). If she had been convinced by Rhaegar of the importance of this prophecy why could she not have been down with hi gaining another wife. Also, I think R + L was more about respect than love. Maybe they fell in love, but at first, it was about Rhaegar trying to find a woman worthy enough to have his third child (a girl who would finish fulfilling the prophecy). Rhaegar realized Lyanna was the KotLT and gained respect for such a strong woman. This was a worthy woman to have his child. This was the one who would help him finish the prophecy. On Lyanna's side, her comparison was Robert who was a dog. He used woman and treated them like objects. Yes, Rhaegar had a wife, but once he convinced of the merits of the prophecy, she became enamoured with him and could not resist his cult-like charms.


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"Old laws are good laws. Ancient laws are even better laws."

Law is what the people accept as the law, mostly because they grew up with it.

And the people also accept that it's a woman's duty to produce as many heirs as her husband requires. Meaning that the conundrum Rhaegar was faced with is something people would generally see as justifiable to act on.

The king is the authority who makes the rules. I'm really not sure what you're getting at. Are you of the opinion that someone's going to impeach Rhaegar over that?

No, I think not. Set aside is annulment not divorce. Rhaegar can't, Elia gave him a heir. This Henry the VIII but worse.

Um, ok. So I was trying to not use the term "divorce" since it doesn't occur in the series. I'm not arguing for annulment, which I told you a few posts ago.

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