about blaming characters and loving/hating characters (an observation)

[INCBlackbird]

So I’ve been on this forum for all but 2 days and I see it everywhere, this characters actions caused that so they are responsible, this character is responsible for that and that...

I also get the feeling that people tend to blame the characters because they don’t like them… while if you did like that character you could easily blame the same thing on something else by the same logic (aka double standards)

Certain things in this story are not anyone’s fault, but rather an unfortunate combination of circumstances that cause it. (like twot5k) and in that case it’s not really a question of who’s to blame. It’s not anyone’s fault, so who you chose to blame is irrelevant.

I think you can blame littlefinger because he did a lot of things (killing jon arryn and telling lysa to tell cat it was the lannisters, betray Ned, probably tell joffrey to kill him…) and he probably did all those with the intention to start the war (I sorta assume, though I guess he may have had an entirely different agenda) he did them on purpose (that’s a very important word!) if you do something with the intension to cause something else to happen, you can say that character is responsible. However when a character does something and it accidentally causes something else, you can’t deem them responsible. If you do so you can just keep going back and back again and you get no where…

It also appears to get used to justify why you dislike a character. Which is another thing I don’t get, people like different characters based on their own personality and experiences and the personality of that character. The fact that you consider a character “evil” does not explain your dislike for that character (I like many characters whom I consider evil), it can however be that you, personaly, do not like “evil” characters. but honestly most of the time characters in this series are grey (with a few exceptions) and when someone dislike them they find reasons to be able to call them evil and justify their dislike that way.

I don’t like Ned Stark, I don’t like Daenerys Targaryan but that does not mean I have to go and find reasons to make them out to be evil, I can admit perfectly well that Ned Stark was one of the nicest people in this story and still dislike him! same with Daenerys.

I really like Theon and I can perfectly admit that he did some horrible things and that he is extremely flawed, in fact, I love him for his flaws, makes him more realistic and relatable if you ask me (though he is not evil like everyone makes him out to be) and I still love him to bits. I really like ramsay (though in a different way then theon) and I am not at all gonna make him out to be anything but the evil piece of shit that he is! Cause I love him BECAUSE he is this evil piece of shit!

If you’re a fan of a character don’t make them out to be a saint, admit their flaws, appreciate the character with all that they are and don’t change them in your head to make them out to be better to justify your like. Same goes the other way around. It’s often not a question of who is evil and who is not, it’s often a question of which character speaks to you as a person most and if you’re personally more interested in characters that are “good”, “grey” or “evil”. For me personally, I do not care if a character is good or evil, I care if a character is interesting (if I’m interested enough to analyse them, I’ll like them)

I hope no one is offended, i’m not talking about anyone in particular it’s just that I see these same things happen over and over and not just here but everywhere, so I just had to get that out.

[King Tyrion I]

Thank you, OP, for your post and observations. Actually, we think alike.

If you’re a fan of a character don’t make them out to be a saint, admit their flaws, appreciate the character with all that they are and don’t change them in your head to make them out to be better to justify your like. Same goes the other way around. It’s often not a question of who is evil and who is not, it’s often a question of which character speaks to you as a person most and if you’re personally more interested in characters that are “good”, “grey” or “evil”. For me personally, I do not care if a character is good or evil, I care if a character is interesting (if I’m interested enough to analyse them, I’ll like them)

:agree: So much this.

[DragonDreamer]

I think it's also about making your favs look better if your hated look worst.

"Jon is an amazing leader who never did anything wrong therefore Dany sucked at everything!" When in reality ADWD was a parallel comparison about their failures as rulers and/or leaders. They both made mistakes ans shit went down ugly for both of them.

"Dany sucks which makes Stannis so very awesome!" When in reality Dany and Stannis have a lot in common.

There are plenty of characters I'm not really fond of but I don't feel a need to bash them, I just ignore them.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

Yet another human being who feels better after telling others how they should handle their feelings. :dunno:

Human Beings aren't Vulcans, we have biased perspectives, feelings, ideas.. since every one is aware that no one can trespass human limitation of right/wrong understanding in absolute terms on many aspects of life, everyone gives that for granted and assumes the self-referential approach being good enough. And it is, especially for the sake of having conversation only.

You can't demand anyone to be consistently above human being natural limitations, can you?

Sometimes it's me who can't take aside feelings from judgement, sometimes it's others and I can't fail to note it as you did.

Sometimes I close my eyes and go over it, sometimes I engage others bias just for the sake of doing it.

I won't tell you what to do now, but I hope that my opinion will contribute into avoiding feeling frustrated all over again in some days.

Because you know how it works, these are rocks thrown into a pond.. they get forgotten very early.

[The Bastard of Walton]

Some good points. I'm defiantly over loyal to the Starks. I quite like the loyalism part of it though, as long as your not completely blinked, as you have said every character is Grey in some aspect.

[sj4iy]

I've never understood the hatred or worship of any fictional character. I have characters I like and don't like, but I don't go to extremes. I'll gladly admit the failings in the characters I like and the admirable qualities in the characters I don't like. If a character is well-rounded, they will have both.

But it does make it hard to have a conversation with people who show extreme bias one way or the other sometimes.

[King Tyrion I]

I've never understood the hatred or worship of any fictional character. I have characters I like and don't like, but I don't go to extremes. I'll gladly admit the failings in the characters I like and the admirable qualities in the characters I don't like. If a character is well-rounded, they will have both.

But it does make it hard to have a conversation with people who show extreme bias one way or the other sometimes.

:agree: I made the same experience over here.

I also don't really hate fictional characters, and I don't get the worship for certain characters. But then again, it's human nature to look for *idols* and for *persons* who could take the blame for something.

Fictional characters seem to fit that bill.

[Mikkel]

Abject love and total hate of any particular character is relatively rare around here, IMO. The vast majority falls somewhere on the like/dislike scale (Mladen and Sansa being a notable exception ;)).

[sj4iy]

:agree: I made the same experience over here.

I also don't really hate fictional characters, and I don't get the worship for certain characters. But then again, it's human nature to look for *idols* and for *persons* who could take the blame for something.

Fictional characters seem to fit that bill.

True, I guess some people like black and white.

Me, on the other hand...Jon's my favorite character, but I'm not at all afraid to rip his character apart. I've done it quite a bit, actually. I don't think I COULD like him if I weren't able to do that, though, because to me, that means there's a human element and he's not just "The Good Guy".

There are very, very few characters I don't think have at least some redeeming qualities. Cersei and Joffrey come to mind, but that's pretty rare in the story. Honestly, I feel the show did a better job with Cersei by giving her some understandable motivations- to protect her family- that the books didn't really give her. I find it sort of funny that the show has the ability to flesh out secondary characters more thoroughly than the books can, but that's due to the use of POV in the books that can't really get into the minds of the non-POV characters.

Still, I find it a fascinating story with fascinating characters for the most part.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

I think There is too much Dany hate.

Some of it is deeply misogynistic, like the vitriolic hatred for Catelyn & Sansa & Cersei which is very troublesome.

People also dont like to accept the flaws of their favorite characters. Say one minor negative thing and people are instantly offended.

The Dany white knight brigade are just as bad. Same goes for any other hater/fanboy combination. Letting your like or dislike of a character overtake logic is idiotic. If you can't even look at a fictional story objectively you're in for a tough life.

Oh, and I can't stand it when people attach real world shit to someone's opinion of a character in a book. Look any negative thread directed towards Sansa/Dany/Catelyn/whoever and I guarantee on the first page you'll see the sexist/feminist comments popping up.

[King Tyrion I]

True, I guess some people like black and white.

Me, on the other hand...Jon's my favorite character, but I'm not at all afraid to rip his character apart. I've done it quite a bit, actually. I don't think I COULD like him if I weren't able to do that, though, because to me, that means there's a human element and he's not just "The Good Guy".

There are very, very few characters I don't think have at least some redeeming qualities. Cersei and Joffrey come to mind, but that's pretty rare in the story. Honestly, I feel the show did a better job with Cersei by giving her some understandable motivations- to protect her family- that the books didn't really give her. I find it sort of funny that the show has the ability to flesh out secondary characters more thoroughly than the books can, but that's due to the use of POV in the books that can't really get into the minds of the non-POV characters.

Still, I find it a fascinating story with fascinating characters for the most part.

People categorize. That's also human nature. To make things easier.

I like the whole bunch of the characters, be they POV characters or non-POV. Because every "person" is set and has a voice of their own. They have their flaws, but they also have their merits and their distinguishing features be they physiological (like Tyrion's nose) or psychological.

I like ASoIaF, because it's dirty, because there's backstabbing - because it's got heroic moments of bravery.

Because it seems more realistic than some historical novels. (I also like Ken Follett's work.)

[INCBlackbird]

Yet another human being who feels better after telling others how they should handle their feelings. :dunno:

Human Beings aren't Vulcans, we have biased perspectives, feelings, ideas.. since every one is aware that no one can trespass human limitation of right/wrong understanding in absolute terms on many aspects of life, everyone gives that for granted and assumes the self-referential approach being good enough. And it is, especially for the sake of having conversation only.

You can't demand anyone to be consistently above human being natural limitations, can you?

Sometimes it's me who can't take aside feelings from judgement, sometimes it's others and I can't fail to note it as you did.

Sometimes I close my eyes and go over it, sometimes I engage others bias just for the sake of doing it.

I won't tell you what to do now, but I hope that my opinion will contribute into avoiding feeling frustrated all over again in some days.

Because you know how it works, these are rocks thrown into a pond.. they get forgotten very early.

I am not telling others how they should handle their feelings though. all I'm asking is to try and think rationally about characters, weither you like them or not.

and I don't demand anyone to be above human limitations, sure if you like a character you will probably lift them up a little higher because of your personal feelings and vise versa. but there's a difference between that and being like "I hate this character so I'm going to simply them to the point where everything they did was all pure evil, completely disregarding the fact that they have a personality and feelings as well and also attribute a bunch of things that were not their fault."

I know that this won't change anything and I know that people won't change and I know that we all make these kinds of mistakes, especially when in an emotional mood but there's a difference between doing it once and doing it consistently (which a lot of people do) and never admitting too but just stubbornly continueing...

[INCBlackbird]

I think There is too much Dany hate.

Some of it is deeply misogynistic, like the vitriolic hatred for Catelyn & Sansa & Cersei which is very troublesome.

People also dont like to accept the flaws of their favorite characters. Say one minor negative thing and people are instantly offended.

I haven't seen a lot of dany hate but I'm generally not reading about her so yeah. but in general I think there's too much hate for most characters and most of what i've seen both for characters I like and characters I dislike is ridiculous. I have yet to see hate for a character that isn't entirely blown out of proportion or a misunderstanding of the character (and I'm pretty sure that misunderstanding is often on purpose, as in people just don't want to know)

I agree with this as well, though I do have to say that when it comes to said blown out or proportion hate it's normal for people to go in the defense. to get offended by it, I can understand to some extent as well even (when it's blown out of proportion hate) though I try to not like emotions rule me and make a proper judgement :)

[The Bittersteel]

I think There is too much Dany hate.

Some of it is deeply misogynistic, like the vitriolic hatred for Catelyn & Sansa & Cersei which is very troublesome.

People also dont like to accept the flaws of their favorite characters. Say one minor negative thing and people are instantly offended.

What I think is far more worrying than that is the love for characters who are completely unpleasant but good looking.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

I am not telling others how they should handle their feelings though. all I'm asking is to try and think rationally about characters, weither you like them or not.

and I don't demand anyone to be above human limitations, sure if you like a character you will probably lift them up a little higher because of your personal feelings and vise versa. but there's a difference between that and being like "I hate this character so I'm going to simply them to the point where everything they did was all pure evil, completely disregarding the fact that they have a personality and feelings as well and also attribute a bunch of things that were not their fault."

I know that this won't change anything and I know that people won't change and I know that we all make these kinds of mistakes, especially when in an emotional mood but there's a difference between doing it once and doing it consistently (which a lot of people do) and never admitting too but just stubbornly continueing...

Sorry, I meant to be funny, not reproaching :-)

It's fine either way, in the end that's how life goes.. ^^

[Hodor's Dragon]

What I think is far more worrying than that is the love for characters who are completely unpleasant but good looking.

I really don't much mind when people do that about book characters.

You know what I mind? When people do that in the real world. Every day. All the time. Everywhere you go. Your whole life.

[LittleItalian91]

The characters like on the basis of own tastes. It is normal that if i love mad people, i will like some people who have got this characteristics in the series.

Loving or hating a character doesn't depend on if he is good o evil, it depends what we intend for good and evil and it depend of our principles and our morals. So we identify with a character who most looks like us.

How it says " De gustibus non disputandum est ": :bowdown:

[Drogon'sWrath]

A lot of it is human nature. People tend to ignore the faults in those they like and the merits in those they dislike. I even catch myself doing it from time to time. It's a normal human behavior, though it gets tiresome when taken too far. I've seen it get to the point that you can't bring up one negative aspect of a character without getting swarmed by said character's fans. On the other hand, I've seen others ignore any merits of a character they dislike. While it is a part of human nature, it often gets taken too far and it gets to the point where you can't even have an intelligent discussion about a character.

[Lonin]

-----

If you’re a fan of a character don’t make them out to be a saint, admit their flaws, appreciate the character with all that they are and don’t change them in your head to make them out to be better to justify your like. Same goes the other way around. It’s often not a question of who is evil and who is not, it’s often a question of which character speaks to you as a person most and if you’re personally more interested in characters that are “good”, “grey” or “evil”. For me personally, I do not care if a character is good or evil, I care if a character is interesting (if I’m interested enough to analyse them, I’ll like them)

----

I think much of the love/hate of characters is a result of anonymous internet/forum style debates - you can never admit the other person might be right, you must always have the last word/post, your fav character is always best, tends to result in people taking extreme positions.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Nice post, OP. I know it's hard not to jump to firm conclusions when you get years and years between books, but I think people will enjoy what is yet to come more if they can somehow keep an open mind.

Remember how many times this series has surprised you. Do you think that's just not going to happen again, or what?