The Inevitable Return of the Middle East and North Africa Thread (aka MENA 15)

[ljkeane]

Including genocide? The average age of Palestinians in Gaza is 17. Their childhood memories will be of the sound of Israeli strikes, and the sight of their families and friends dying. Even if Hamas collapses tomorrow, so long as this cycle of violence continues something just the same will take its place. When you hear people talk about a final, violent solution to the 'Palestinian problem', it's utterly terrifying.

I don't have a particularly positive opinion of the Israeli end of the Israel/Palestine conflict or their actions with regard to Gaza in particular but I think the chances of them engaging in widespread genocide are fairly remote at this point. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to make without getting quite that hyperbolic.

[Suttree]

Link

That isn't at all what you seemed to be implying with your initial claim.

[Shryke]

How anyone can call NATO's mission in Libya a success is beyond me, but I'm willing to concede that people look at things differently. I, however, cannot see it as anything other than a failure with disastrous consequences. YMMV.

Easy. It's better then what would have resulted had nothing been done. As was already explained several times in the thread.

You don't have agree with that assessment, but there's nothing strange or foreign about "Intervention led to the better of the possible outcomes"

[The Iceman of the North]

How anyone can call NATO's mission in Libya a success is beyond me, but I'm willing to concede that people look at things differently. I, however, cannot see it as anything other than a failure with disastrous consequences. YMMV.

It's a success because it prevented a massacre in Benghazi. The problem with Libya is not international intervention, rather that Libya have been ignored since the fall of Ghadaffi.

[Shryke]

I don't have a particularly positive opinion of the Israeli end of the Israel/Palestine conflict or their actions with regard to Gaza in particular but I think the chances of them engaging in widespread genocide are fairly remote at this point. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to make without getting quite that hyperbolic.

You mean rounding people up? Hell no.

But if you mean steadily stealing land, restricting resources and destroying property, homes, people and the ability to function at all, then yeah, that's pretty much happening right now.

[snake]

Easy. It's better then what would have resulted had nothing been done. As was already explained several times in the thread.

You don't have agree with that assessment, but there's nothing strange or foreign about "Intervention led to the better of the possible outcomes".

That's because it most likely did not. Again. YMMV.

[snake]

A couple of interesting articles to read.

The Gaza Trap by Shlomo Ben-Ami, former Israeli FM.

The End of the Arab State by Christopher R. Hill.

[Shryke]

A video to show the extent of Israeli bombing in Gaza:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYcrYud3R94

[snake]

A video to show the extent of Israeli bombing in Gaza:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYcrYud3R94

That's pretty devastating man. Cannot imagine what it is like to live in a war zone. Hope I never do.

[Arkhangel]

I don't have a particularly positive opinion of the Israeli end of the Israel/Palestine conflict or their actions with regard to Gaza in particular but I think the chances of them engaging in widespread genocide are fairly remote at this point. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to make without getting quite that hyperbolic.

I'm not suggesting that it's a likely possibility in the near future - surely the fact that it's something being talked about at all is awful enough. It's a pretty terrible sign of how far things have gone that genocide is even the remotest of possibilities.

[Fez]

I'm not suggesting that it's a likely possibility in the near future - surely the fact that it's something being talked about at all is awful enough. It's a pretty terrible sign of how far things have gone that genocide is even the remotest of possibilities.

Its not a remote possibility except for the fact that you keep bringing it up.

Israel hasn't exactly treated the Palestinians fairly in recent years, but they aren't going to start rounding them up.

[Stannisaurus2]

Israel hasn't exactly treated the Palestinians fairly in recent years,

This is a worse exaggeration towards the other direction (so I guess an understatement) than the genocide claim (although there wasn't any actual claim of genocide, it was just presented as a remote possibility).

[Arkhangel]

Its not a remote possibility except for the fact that you keep bringing it up.

Israel hasn't exactly treated the Palestinians fairly in recent years, but they aren't going to start rounding them up.

I don't 'keep bringing it up', I mentioned it once and then responded to a comment directed at me. There is a distinct undertone of ethnic cleansing in the rhetoric from some segments of Israeli politics and Israeli society, and I think it should be recognised as a warning sign and responded to (as well as it can be) to de-escalate the threat insofar as is possible, rather than pretending that it doesn't exist and allowing the situation to worsen.

[Fez]

This is a worse exaggeration towards the other direction (so I guess an understatement) than the genocide claim (although there wasn't any actual claim of genocide, it was just presented as a remote possibility).

Pretty much by definition, understatements aren't exaggerations. And sure, I was understating matters, but the idea that that's further from the truth than a genocide possibility is laughable. Both sides treat each other extraordinarily badly; in the '80s and '90s I'd argue that the Palestinians did worse things, but in recent years Israel has gotten far more hawkish and aggressive than they used to be. Its the way of things.

I don't 'keep bringing it up', I mentioned it once and then responded to a comment directed at me. There is a distinct undertone of ethnic cleansing in the rhetoric from some segments of Israeli politics and Israeli society, and I think it should be recognised as a warning sign and responded to (as well as it can be) to de-escalate the threat insofar as is possible, rather than pretending that it doesn't exist and allowing the situation to worsen.

Mentioning outlandish things don't help de-escalate the situation, they escalate it by getting people to think about things they hadn't previously been thinking about. And once people start thinking about something, they start thinking about possibility of it happening, and then all of a sudden its in the public discourse and there are people advocating for it. Its dumb, but that's the way human brains work.

[Suttree]

snip

Yet another alt account?

[Stannisaurus2]

Yet another alt account?

What gave me away? The fact that I have exactly the same name with my normal account (which I can't use anymore which is why I made this one) but with "2" at the end?

[Alarich]

If anyone thinks that genocide is not even a remote possibility, look at the Jewish Home Party - member of the coalition supporting the current government. They are essentially propagating a "Lebensraum" ideology. If you look at what kind of radical opinions get voted into the Knesset and what kind of parties are forming the government and see how the Israeli state supports the colonization efforts by the settlers, the idea of a genocide is bound to come around in certain circles, small as they may be.

To be fair - I don't think it's going to happen. What happens today, although not a genocide, is "just" a systematic destruction of the economy, health care, education, infrastructure and other ressources. The people in Gaza are not rounded up, they are told to leave their homes or die, so that's good because although they lose everything else, they do get to keep their lives. Which they can happily spend in what is essentially a big prison camp.

This war is never going to end. I mean let's face it, even if all of Hamas surrenders, how is a lasting peace supposed to look like? What is Israel going to give to the Palestinians? Hand back the occupied territories? No, there are settlers living there. Let them build their own state, including a police force and a military? No, they are going to harbour terrorists. Release their POVs? No, they are terrorists because we decide they are. Equal distribution of water-rights per head? No, our agriculture needs it, Palestinians don't need it because - surprise! - they don't have any meaningful agriculture. Problem is, Israel has no carrot, only a very big stick.

[Suttree]

What gave me away? The fact that I have exactly the same name with my normal account (which I can't use anymore which is why I made this one) but with "2" at the end?

Read my post again.

[Stannisaurus2]

Read my post again.

Yes dude, you are also implying that my first account was also an alt account.

[Samalander]

Just read this report on the CBC. Support for military action in Gaza is very high in Israel and there is apparently not much tolerance for dissenting opinions. I wonder how much will Israel expand it's operations in Gaza?

Depends. If we can get everything we want (cough, demilitarization of the Gaza Strip, cough) from a cease-fire there will be no need to expand operations. Otherwise, our PM is under a lot pressure not to stop without some kind of achievement.

It seems that the majority of Israelis want an end put to Hamas and willing to accept whatever that entails.

Well, yeah. Those guys are religous zealots that just want us wiped off the map. Our very own ISIS on our doorstep. And no, we don't take our casualties or their civilian casualties lightly. But like Stewart demonstrated in his Daily Show, it's a repeating cycle. If some drastic change is not achieved, two-three years down the line, there will be a repeat.

From the interview in the OP:

I get the impression that the Israeli government and alot of the populace just want the issue over with.

Also true. We did not start military hostilities, they did (over money, no less! They couldn't pay their militants, so off to war we go!). Watching funerals every day on tv is not how we wanted to spend the summer, I can tell you that.

How is that any different from the past several years in Gaza? Israel has had the whole place under it's control for quite awhile now. They are just a neglectful and distant occupier, content to control all ways in and out.

Occupier implies... occupation. A physical presence of some sort. Gaza is Jew/Israeli free, just the way they like it. We owe them not a single centimeter of land in Gaza. As for controlling ways in and out - they do keep smuggling rockets in. Rockets which later we get to meet. Personally. So hell yeah, our border is tightly controlled, and the sea access is under blockade.

You mean rounding people up? Hell no.

But if you mean steadily stealing land, restricting resources and destroying property, homes, people and the ability to function at all, then yeah, that's pretty much happening right now.

They can have all the financial prosperity they want, if they just stop trying to kill us.

Including genocide? The average age of Palestinians in Gaza is 17. Their childhood memories will be of the sound of Israeli strikes, and the sight of their families and friends dying. Even if Hamas collapses tomorrow, so long as this cycle of violence continues something just the same will take its place. When you hear people talk about a final, violent solution to the 'Palestinian problem', it's utterly terrifying.

No need to throw the G word around. One woman with poor control of English says something, the implications of which she does not fully grasp, and all of a sudden it's a genocide party, funny hats not included.

I'm not suggesting that it's a likely possibility in the near future - surely the fact that it's something being talked about at all is awful enough. It's a pretty terrible sign of how far things have gone that genocide is even the remotest of possibilities.

It's really not talked about. See above.

To be fair - I don't think it's going to happen. What happens today, although not a genocide, is "just" a systematic destruction of the economy, health care, education, infrastructure and other ressources.

0) The people in Gaza are not rounded up, they are told to leave their homes or die, so that's good because although they lose everything else, they do get to keep their lives.

1) Which they can happily spend in what is essentially a big prison camp.

This war is never going to end. I mean let's face it, even if all of Hamas surrenders, how is a lasting peace supposed to look like?

2) What is Israel going to give to the Palestinians? Hand back the occupied territories? No, there are settlers living there.

3) Let them build their own state, including a police force and a military? No, they are going to harbour terrorists.

4) Release their POVs? No, they are terrorists because we decide they are.

5) Equal distribution of water-rights per head? No, our agriculture needs it, Palestinians don't need it because - surprise! - they don't have any meaningful agriculture. Problem is, Israel has no carrot, only a very big stick.

0) At least we tell them where we are going to strike and warn them to leave beforehand. A consideration Hamas does not extend to Israeli civilians before shooting rockets at them.

1) Enough with the prison camp already. All the land they are entitled to in Gaza, they have. They want our stranglehold lifted? A constructive first step would be to stop trying to kill us.

2) Well, yeah. Most of it anyway. They can have a land swap for the bits we can't give them because there are too many people living there.

3) Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian Authority, who has disavowed violence, has a police force under his control (which we do not attack or interfere with), and the mechanisms of a functioning state.

4) If and when final peace accords are signed, their POW's will be released (including child murderers. How are child murderers POWs and not war criminals is beyond me).

5) We give water to all our friends (see Jordan). Desalination rocks.