Pink Letter Theory

[Rodrik Harlaw]

This is not one I support but I am curious, if you do believe someone else wrote the pink letter, what was the first thing that made you think it wasn't Ramsay?

[SunflashJT]

The handwriting comparison. When Ramsey sends the letter to Theon's sister the handwriting is described as scratchy and written in blood. The 'Pink Letter' wasn't written in blood and it was in a legible hand. Skinchanging SweetRobin has a really good series of videos on this subject.

[jet199]

This is not one I support but I am curious, if you do believe someone else wrote the pink letter, what was the first thing that made you think it wasn't Ramsay?

It was the language. I read ADWD in a day and a bit so when the PL appeared I still had Mance/Rattleshirt's abuse to Jon while they were fighting clear in my head. I can't believe GRRM would give both Mance and Ramsey, not just the same way of speaking, but the exact same tactic for winding Jon up.

[Rodrik Harlaw]

The handwriting comparison. When Ramsey sends the letter to Theon's sister the handwriting is described as scratchy and written in blood. The 'Pink Letter' wasn't written in blood and it was in a legible hand. Skinchanging SweetRobin has a really good series of videos on this subject.

I'm aware of the video and I don't find the arguments convincing enough that it was not Ramsay, (the only suspicious thing to me is that Mance could plausibly really really hate Jon)

So I was interested in what made people suspect in the first place.

[Rodrik Harlaw]

It was the language. I read ADWD in a day and a bit so when the PL appeared I still had Mance/Rattleshirt's abuse to Jon while they were fighting clear in my head. I can't believe GRRM would give both Mance and Ramsey, not just the same way of speaking, but the exact same tactic for winding Jon up.

I will have to reread the dialogue and the letter and compare.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

Here's the thread discussing the video.

[Hrafntýr]

It was the language. I read ADWD in a day and a bit so when the PL appeared I still had Mance/Rattleshirt's abuse to Jon while they were fighting clear in my head. I can't believe GRRM would give both Mance and Ramsey, not just the same way of speaking, but the exact same tactic for winding Jon up.

Same here. Plus the fact that contained all kinds of info that would be irrelevant to Ramsay. I was hitting my head: "Jon, if it's so obvious to me, why isn't it to you?!!!" Of course, Jon doesn't know much of anything about Ramsay, unlike us readers.

[SunflashJT]

I'm aware of the video and I don't find the arguments convincing enough that it was not Ramsay, (the only suspicious thing to me is that Mance could plausibly really really hate Jon)

So I was interested in what made people suspect in the first place.

Personally I never thought Ramsey wrote it in the first place, but the videos opened me up to other possibilities.

It was the language. I read ADWD in a day and a bit so when the PL appeared I still had Mance/Rattleshirt's abuse to Jon while they were fighting clear in my head. I can't believe GRRM would give both Mance and Ramsey, not just the same way of speaking, but the exact same tactic for winding Jon up.

I noticed that as well on my third time through the book, I listen to them while at work so occasionally I miss little things like that. But I did catch it on my third time through it.

[Hos the Hostage]

You may like to read these, if you already did not know:

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Epilogue.html

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Battle.html

(Entire discussion starts with http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/HuisClos.html)

On the first read, I only wondered why Bowen Marsh did that. My thoughts went to Mel's prophecy, and her thoughts about Jon and Stannis. I assumed the whole thing was a drama orchestrated by Mel using her magical prowess, to make Jon come over to her side.

But there was no way Mel could know Ramsay would want his Reek back. And Mel would not have considered manipulating Jon by addressing him "Bastard".

As to Ramsay himself, he did not know about the wildling princess, or the little prince. If he got the info from the captured spearwives, they won't call Val as the wildling princess. Why would Ramsay want Selyse and Mance's son? Shireen is Stannis's heir, Val is a beautiful woman, so is Melisandre, but why Selyse and the babe? Also, if Ramsay caught anyone, he won't just behead them, he would mention about flaying them.

[Rodrik Harlaw]

As to Ramsay himself, he did not know about the wildling princess, or the little prince. If he got the info from the captured spearwives, they won't call Val as the wildling princess. Why would Ramsay want Selyse and Mance's son? Shireen is Stannis's heir, Val is a beautiful woman, so is Melisandre, but why Selyse and the babe? Also, if Ramsay caught anyone, he won't just behead them, he would mention about flaying them.

A flayed man has no secrets, whatever Mance knew, Ramsay could know.

There was flaying mentioned in the letter.

"I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell."

Ramsay obviously would have to be lying about Stannis, who knows what else is true in the letter. Ramsay doesn't always terrify his enemies into submission or describe the detail of his actual work. He has many different ways of manipulating specific people. Think of how he initially handled Theon, Rodrik Cassell, and the surrender of Moat Cailin. He didn't try to scare them, he lulled them.

I'll look through those links you put up though

[jet199]

You may like to read these, if you already did not know:

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Epilogue.html

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Battle.html

(Entire discussion starts with http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/HuisClos.html)

On the first read, I only wondered why Bowen Marsh did that. My thoughts went to Mel's prophecy, and her thoughts about Jon and Stannis. I assumed the whole thing was a drama orchestrated by Mel using her magical prowess, to make Jon come over to her side.

But there was no way Mel could know Ramsay would want his Reek back. And Mel would not have considered manipulating Jon by addressing him "Bastard".

As to Ramsay himself, he did not know about the wildling princess, or the little prince. If he got the info from the captured spearwives, they won't call Val as the wildling princess. Why would Ramsay want Selyse and Mance's son? Shireen is Stannis's heir, Val is a beautiful woman, so is Melisandre, but why Selyse and the babe? Also, if Ramsay caught anyone, he won't just behead them, he would mention about flaying them.

I think you are probably right about Mel being involved. Mel doesn't know about the Ramsay/Reek dynamic but Mance probably does from his time at Winterfell. Mance is under Mel's control and she can probably get him to send a letter through their ruby connection However she probably didn't dictate the letter word for word so Mance was able to write it in a way which would wind Jon up and let everyone know he was still alive.

There is this exchange:-

"Your fires have been known to lie.”

“I have made mistakes, I have admitted as much, but—”

“A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?”

“All your questions shall be answered. Look to the skies, Lord Snow. And when you have your answers, send to me. Winter is almost upon us now. I am your only hope.”

Later, in the same chapter, the PL shows up containing all the info Jon demanded. Now maybe Mel saw it coming in her fires but she is not looking in her fires when she tells Jon his questions will be answered. It is more likely that she panics and gets Mance to send a Raven. And it partly works, Jon thinks that if she was right about the letter coming then she must be useful, but it also causes Jon to get stabbed.

[Edmure's Floppy Fish]

I think you are probably right about Mel being involved. Mel doesn't know about the Ramsay/Reek dynamic but Mance probably does from his time at Winterfell. Mance is under Mel's control and she can probably get him to send a letter through their ruby connection However she probably didn't dictate the letter word for word so Mance was able to write it in a way which would wind Jon up and let everyone know he was still alive.

There is this exchange:-

"Your fires have been known to lie.”

“I have made mistakes, I have admitted as much, but—”

“A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?”

“All your questions shall be answered. Look to the skies, Lord Snow. And when you have your answers, send to me. Winter is almost upon us now. I am your only hope.”

Later, in the same chapter, the PL shows up containing all the info Jon demanded. Now maybe Mel saw it coming in her fires but she is not looking in her fires when she tells Jon his questions will be answered. It is more likely that she panics and gets Mance to send a Raven. And it partly works, Jon thinks that if she was right about the letter coming then she must be useful, but it also causes Jon to get stabbed.

Wow. I have never picked up on that. I have always felt Mance wrote it, but never believed Mel was involved. Maybe Mance and Mel had the letter in mind from the beginning and didn't need to communicate while he was gone. If Mel knew Mance was going to send a letter that would get Jon worked up, all she had to say was "look to skies" and Jon(and the reader) would assume she saw that in the flames.

Mel could have hoped for one of two reactions from Jon.

1.Force him to trust her because she predicted it and because she knew Jon would be backed into a corner and would seek her help in dealing with the people that betrayed his family. Once he trusts her she can start making little shadow babies. Or

2. To rouse Jon to gather a force and go fight the Boltons. (And she would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for those meddling stewards!) She knew Stannis needed help, so she conspired with Mance to provoke Jon into action by sending a letter from Ramsay. Jon would have showed up at Winterfell with a legion of Wildlings ready to kill some Boltons, I doubt he would have turned around once he saw Stannis was alive.

But I doubt Mel knew it would lead to the "daggers in the dark" scene playing out.

There are just so many questions with the PL and stabbing..... THE WAIT TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED IS KILLING ME[emoji31]!

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

There's no indication that Mel and Mance have a "ruby connection" after he's left Castle Black. In Winterfell Mance doesn't appear to be under the spell of the glamor. That said it's possible that Mance and Mel are nevertheless behind the letter.

[Eira Seren]

The sample Theon chapter from TWOW convinced me that it might actually be Stannis, with information gleaned from Theon. Theon might know stuff about Mance/Abel, and would definitely know enough about Ramsay. He would also know just how to get to Jon, something Stannis fails at fantastically before leaving the Wall.

[Hos the Hostage]

The sample Theon chapter from TWOW convinced me that it might actually be Stannis, with information gleaned from Theon. Theon might know stuff about Mance/Abel, and would definitely know enough about Ramsay. He would also know just how to get to Jon, something Stannis fails at fantastically before leaving the Wall.

It is possible, Stannis definitely has all the info, if Theon told him everything. However, all this pretense and cunning is not Stannis's way of doing thing. This kind of work is more suited to Tywin, Tyrion, or Littlefinger. The only person at Stannis's camp who can come up with this idea, if provided with all the info, is Asha Greyjoy.

[Eira Seren]

It is possible, Stannis definitely has all the info, if Theon told him everything. However, all this pretense and cunning is not Stannis's way of doing thing. This kind of work is more suited to Tywin, Tyrion, or Littlefinger. The only person at Stannis's camp who can come up with this idea, if provided with all the info, is Asha Greyjoy.

That's one I hadn't considered. It isn't Stannis's style for sure. Would Mance possibly be in Stannis's camp, did he somehow escape?

[alienarea]

That's one I hadn't considered. It isn't Stannis's style for sure. Would Mance possibly be in Stannis's camp, did he somehow escape?

IIRC Mance was in the hall when Theon and Jeyne jumped. If he didn't plan on hiding in Winterfell, possibly the crypts, he could have opted to join the Freys or Manderleys to get out and sneak away once outside of Winterfell.

But Theon mentions the drawbridge being down? Maybe that was Mance and he left ahead of them?

[Gendry_Goldeneyes]

how did mance have the ability to send a raven from winter fell?

[Hos the Hostage]

how did mance have the ability to send a raven from winter fell?

There were three maesters in WF, and Hother Umber who spent some time in the Citadel. If Mance could make common cause with any of the Northern Lords who had access to maesters and ravens, he can send a letter.

[Gendry_Goldeneyes]

There were three maesters in WF, and Hother Umber who spent some time in the Citadel. If Mance could make common cause with any of the Northern Lords who had access to maesters and ravens, he can send a letter.

he could of also snuck into the where they keep the ravens and sent one...

but these are very hard sells, possible but not very probable