Will technology advance/ is it advancing?

[kubricklynch]

Is there anything showing that technology has advanced in Westeros, etc. since the Age of Heroes or any earlier time? Do you think that technology is going to advance and eventually reach what we consider "modern" or is Westeros stuck in "Medieval" times forever?

[7th-key]

Well, Jaime is still working on his gravity belt... so, we'll see.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes, it is advancing. The books create an impression of staticness, but it's intentionally wrong.

The Middle Ages had the same problem. News coverage is bad, history lessons are worse, and the few that receive them focus more on battles and politics instead of living circumstances. Almost all people have only their own personal experiences to compare to. And you experience damn few advancements personally!

That lead to these fancy church paintings depicting King David as a knight in chainmail or roman legionnaires as 16th century landsknechts. People project their own surroundings backwards to fill the gaps in their knowledge.

A few interested Westerosi knew that, but you can count them on your fingers. Beyond Sam, Maester Aemon, Maester Luwin, The Reader Rodrik Harlaw and the acolytes of the Citadel, nobody cares. It's no happenstance that except the Reader they are all linked to the Citadel, and he's basically a hobby maester.

Sam for example points out that the Westerosi oral "history" has knights riding around doing knightly stuff in the Age of Heroes, long before the Andals introduced knighthood.

Acknowledged in the books is the evolution from the Stone Age/Bronze Age to Medieval/Early Renaissance technology in general. Furthermore, we've got Jaime talking a bit about castle architecture at Raventree and Cersei's new gigantic dromonds seem to be a new development in shipbuilding. I may have forgotten some other examples and left out a few that are more dubious, but they are rare. It's not the focus of the books.

[kubricklynch]

Thanks Bright Blue Eyes, that was quite interesting.

[oopeed]

This is a thing that bothers me in many fantasy series, its annoying how three thousand years or more can pass and technology will be the same. Even normal humans experienced amazing changes from 8000 BC until 2000 AD and the last 600 years have been just a blur of exponential growth.

At least since the age of heroes, humans should have at least invented cannons and sailships. At the very least.

[littleRickon]

how much of those 8000 years (Last Hero's times?) has been written history though? It seems to me that much of what Westeros thinks about its own past is a bunch of tales and rumors. Without written proof against, it, a thousand years of history can easily become 8000 in a tale...

[BrianBoru]

Very interesting question. Bright Blue Eyes and Hedge Knight make very important points that explain much: technology of the past is imagined by the living to be similar to their own experiences and the distant past may not be so distant after all.

I've always thought that a Roman citizen from 500BC would probably have a seizure if transported to our own time (2000AD), but could probably adjust to the technology (if not the society) of 1800AD. Of course, the technology of war had advanced significantly, but perhaps 1500AD battles would be largely familiar - one still hacked to death one's enemies, iron (steel) armour was still used, horse cavalry was still used, etc. I don't believe canon and arquebuses were widespread enough to significantly amaze our Roman citizen, especially if he had previously witnessed anything like the opening battle sequence in Ridley Scott's Gladiator.

The tales of King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table came down to us in high medieval form, but it's only recently theorised that he was a Romano-Celt fighting the Anglo-Saxon invaders of his supposed province of the Roman Empire.

This got me thinking about the myth-soaked pre-history of Greece; think of Heracles (son of Zeus, really?), Achilles (should have washed his heel), Odysseus (and, well, his odyssey). And then to the Hebrew Old Testament and the attempts to link biblical events into the better-understood Egyptian timeline.

And then to the Messiah, the Messianic prophecy and the differing interpretations thereof (between Christians and Jews). And from the Messiah to Azor Ahai and TPTWP. But that's for another thread.

[Elkrider]

In additition to the above posters' statements, I would like to point out that it's possible that technological advancement is unevenly dispersed throughout the world.

At least since the age of heroes, humans should have at least invented cannons and sailships. At the very least.

Gunpowder and cannons, as well as things like printing presses and compasses, started out in China and other Far Eastern societies. It's entirely possible that Yi Ti has these things and they just haven't made it to Westeros yet. We don't get a good view of all the Free Cities, but it's possible that they are more technologically advanced in certain aspects. For example, Myr has a monopoly on the production of high quality glass, just like Venice did. (It hasn't spread throughout the world because they want to maintain their monopoly)

And sailing ships do exist. There a a lot of references towards sails--Salladhor Saan's striped ones, Braavosi purple ones, etc.

[GallowsKnight]

The Summer Islander's Swan ships are pretty much latter sailing ships.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

They just recently developed such technological advancement!

- they improved the efficiency of wildfire production by several orders of magnitude

- advanced knowledge on the domain of chirurgy and medicine to the point of resurrecting the Mountain

- (re-)discovered an amazing weapon with the unique power of killing off white walkers

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

Agreed with Bright Blue Eyes, st. George is shown to be a white and a knight, yet from his biography he should be middle eastern looking and wearing roman armour.

As to whether it is advancing, well, yea it is I think during the Westerlands reading it was said that house greenfield had a wooden castles, I think the same from Lithuania or motte and bailey, both before stone castles.

[fuem]

Blood magic and Dragons still waiting on my door for these things to happen oh and to be able to warg into a wolf still waiting

[Genghis Khal]

how much of those 8000 years (Last Hero's times?) has been written history though? It seems to me that much of what Westeros thinks about its own past is a bunch of tales and rumors. Without written proof against, it, a thousand years of history can easily become 8000 in a tale...

I share your belief. 8000 years seems a stretch. Something like 4000 is more believable, with the last 1500 or so a bit more historically accurate. With only oral tradition 8000 years is huh, a lot. Our oldest epic, Gilgamesh is only 4500 years old ( He is supposed to have ruled around -2500), and it probably survived because of the written language (cuniform alphabet I think) and not by oral tradition. Probably its much less but the tale is so so yeah, people accept it. I would believe that number if they had family trees stretching up to even half that number. And the fact that some families claim unbroken lineages for thousands of years is also very improbable. Most early middle age noble houses have died out, many before 1300. Even the Karlings (Carolingians), the Bagrationi dynasty in Georgia is one of the oldest and still they gained power only around the 700s.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Agreed with Bright Blue Eyes, st. George is shown to be a white and a knight, yet from his biography he should be middle eastern looking and wearing roman armour.

As to whether it is advancing, well, yea it is I think during the Westerlands reading it was said that house greenfield had a wooden castles, I think the same from Lithuania or motte and bailey, both before stone castles.

What exactly is "middle eastern looking"? Someone like that? Or that?

[Genghis Khal]

What exactly is "middle eastern looking"? Someone like that? Or that?

The second one is Iranian so one might argue if the term middle eastern applies to him. In my mind at least middle-eastern looking means semitic, so both arabs and jews and all other ethnic groups from Mesopotamia and the Levant. Modern Jews seem a bit more "european" because of their diaspora and contact and marriage with and to Europeans (though marriage outside of "the faith" was rare, in so many years it added up.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I share your belief. 8000 years seems a stretch. Something like 4000 is more believable, with the last 1500 or so a bit more historically accurate. With only oral tradition 8000 years is huh, a lot. Our oldest epic, Gilgamesh is only 4500 years old ( He is supposed to have ruled around -2500), and it probably survived because of the written language (cuniform alphabet I think) and not by oral tradition. Probably its much less but the tale is so so yeah, people accept it. I would believe that number if they had family trees stretching up to even half that number. And the fact that some families claim unbroken lineages for thousands of years is also very improbable. Most early middle age noble houses have died out, many before 1300. Even the Karlings (Carolingians), the Bagrationi dynasty in Georgia is one of the oldest and still they gained power only around the 700s.

The official claim for the Andal Invasion is 6,000 years ago. The Maesters argue against it, but can't settle on whether it was 4,000 or 2,000 years ago either. That would be the introduction of the written (and still understood) language in Westeros. So yes, the 8,000 years claim is definitely exaggeration.

[Talking Hodor]

Just in the few short years since the series began we've seen advances in saddle making, direwolf husbandry, reforging Valyrian steel, crossbow firing systems, wight autopsies, knowledge of the effects of obsidian on the flesh of Others, dragon husbandry, dragon taming, firewalking, finger amputations, preventing necrosis in hand amputations, the effective use of wildfire in naval skirmishes, big-ass chain forging, resurrecting the dead via r'hllorism, and resurrecting the dead via necrotic experiments. Watch out! Electricity is just around the corner.

[Ser Yo of House Lo]

Well, there's an elevator at the Wall, and I'm sure there's more to the Free Cities than we the reader have been able to see.

[Arakan]

Yes, it is advancing. The books create an impression of staticness, but it's intentionally wrong.

The Middle Ages had the same problem. News coverage is bad, history lessons are worse, and the few that receive them focus more on battles and politics instead of living circumstances. Almost all people have only their own personal experiences to compare to. And you experience damn few advancements personally!

That lead to these fancy church paintings depicting King David as a knight in chainmail or roman legionnaires as 16th century landsknechts. People project their own surroundings backwards to fill the gaps in their knowledge.

A few interested Westerosi knew that, but you can count them on your fingers. Beyond Sam, Maester Aemon, Maester Luwin, The Reader Rodrik Harlaw and the acolytes of the Citadel, nobody cares. It's no happenstance that except the Reader they are all linked to the Citadel, and he's basically a hobby maester.

Sam for example points out that the Westerosi oral "history" has knights riding around doing knightly stuff in the Age of Heroes, long before the Andals introduced knighthood.

Acknowledged in the books is the evolution from the Stone Age/Bronze Age to Medieval/Early Renaissance technology in general. Furthermore, we've got Jaime talking a bit about castle architecture at Raventree and Cersei's new gigantic dromonds seem to be a new development in shipbuilding. I may have forgotten some other examples and left out a few that are more dubious, but they are rare. It's not the focus of the books.

Very good post :). Nicely summarized

[Arakan]

I would like to add that one of the greatest things GRRM did that he step by step started to question all of this "Fantasy history"...

In AGOT we listen to Maester Luwin who gives us a "rough overview" of the last 12000 years and back then we in the fandom took it all at face value because, well, it's Fantasy after all ;).

And then slowly, starting in ACOK, he just tears it all apart...loved it :)