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Most powerful non great houses


Kenton Stark

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Some great lists here the only major minor House I can see that is missing from every list is House Payne, who are one of the foremost Houses of the Westerlands.

My top three would be:

1. Hightower

2. Royce (particularly right now in the series)

3. Manderly

Nah, Paynes lose to Marbrands or Crakehalls. They're knightly, right?
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The Hightowers are obviously light years ahead of anyone else in this department. They simply prefer soft power (economics and diplomacy) over hard power (military might), though they could certainly switch to the latter if they really wanted. It almost makes you wonder why they haven't at least tried to displace the Tyrells at some point (there must have been at least some ambitious Hightowers over the last few generations).



The Bolton vs Manderly divide is hard power vs soft power. The Boltons were the Starks' great rivals, and they seemed to have done so via force of arms. Certainly, there seems to be nothing particularly useful economically around the Dreadfort. By contrast, the Manderlys have White Harbour, which in the real world would be the North's capital rather than Winterfell. White Harbour (access to the Free Cities!) is about as good a soft power hub as you are going to get in the North, to the extent that you really wonder why the Starks would want to give it to some random Southerners.



And then there are the Freys. I wonder if anyone has ever been tempted to build another bridge over the Trident...


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The Bolton vs Manderly divide is hard power vs soft power. The Boltons were the Starks' great rivals, and they seemed to have done so via force of arms. Certainly, there seems to be nothing particularly useful economically around the Dreadfort. By contrast, the Manderlys have White Harbour, which in the real world would be the North's capital rather than Winterfell. White Harbour (access to the Free Cities!) is about as good a soft power hub as you are going to get in the North, to the extent that you really wonder why the Starks would want to give it to some random Southerners.

The way I've always seen it is when the 1st Lord Manderly (in the North at least) was given White Harbor by the Starks it was probably little more than a fishing village. When you think about it the traditional Northmen don't really do cities - their cultural mindset is too inwardly looking and what trade they do do is more about subsistence than making a profit due to the old adage that 'Winter is coming'. So you can see this small fishing village on a river delta full of countless generations of northern fishermen just fishing down through the ages just enough fish to survive... then they get this new lord coming from the South with all these funny southern ideas the Northern fishermen have never thought about before, but for some reason these funny southern ideas their new lord has makes the Northern fishermen very rich so the fishermen can afford do other things than fish all the time and have bigger families. And so the Northern fishermen decide to keep doing the funny things their funny Southern lord tells them to do and they get richer and richer...

I don't how much that's supported in the text, but that's the way I see White Harbor developing. It is quite telling though that the only real city in the North is run by a noble house that is culturally Andal in background rather than the local First Men. I see it as a classic case of outsiders coming into an area and because their different cultural perspective on things exploiting advantages that the locals didn't recognise.

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Westerlands: Do the cadet branch in Lannisport count?

The Lannisters of Casterly Rock seem to run Lannisport; Tywin has the title Shield of Lannisport. The cadet branch just happens to live in the city, comparable to the Arryn branch living in Gulltown (which is dominated by the Graftons and Shetts).

White Harbour (access to the Free Cities!) is about as good a soft power hub as you are going to get in the North, to the extent that you really wonder why the Starks would want to give it to some random Southerners.

To go along with what Knight of the Teabags said, White Harbor was developed by the Manderlys. The Wolf's Den had passed through numerous hands (Starks, Greystarks, Flints, Lockes, Slates, Longs, Holts, Ashwoods, etc.) before being given to the Manderlys.

Wylla Manderly:

A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!

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My thoughts on placing Royce above Hightowers originally, were Bronze Yohn strong leadership over the head of the Hightowers and with Jon Arryn being away in Kingslanding as the Hand, I think the Royces would have more influence in the Vale than the Hightowers would have in the Reach with the Tyrells firmly in control with Mace and more likely , The Queen of Thorns running things.



I also felt there were more powerful houses in the Reach to challenge the Hightowers influence than the Royces had to compete with in the Vale.



The Royces also have more natural defenses for their home territory than the Hightowers, for what that's worth.





I can certainly understand the opinion that the Hightowers should probably rank ahead of them in most cases.


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My thoughts on placing Royce above Hightowers originally, were Bronze Yohn strong leadership over the head of the Hightowers and with Jon Arryn being away in Kingslanding as the Hand, I think the Royces would have more influence in the Vale than the Hightowers would have in the Reach with the Tyrells firmly in control with Mace and more likely , The Queen of Thorns running things.

I also felt there were more powerful houses in the Reach to challenge the Hightowers influence than the Royces had to compete with in the Vale.

The Royces also have more natural defenses for their home territory than the Hightowers, for what that's worth.

I can certainly understand the opinion that the Hightowers should probably rank ahead of them in most cases.

Oh, as in the current political situation.

But still Hightowers are far richer and have far more soldiers. And who knows what they're plotting?

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Only House Hightower is said to be comparable to a great house, only House Redwyne is comparable to House Hightower and only House Manderly is comparable to House Redwyne..

Here's my list..

01. House Hightower of Oldtown - (ancient lineage, former petty kings; rules the oldest and most historically significant city in the realm with close ties to the faith and learning; immensely wealthy and can field three times as many swords as any other house in the Reach)

02. House Redwyne of The Arbor - (possesses the largest naval fleet in the realm excluding the Iron Fleet; controls a monopoly on the best and most prized wine in the realm and immensely wealthy)

03. House Manderly of White Harbor - (ancient lineage; controls one of the only five major cities in the realm; possesses a sizable naval fleet; controls silver mines; command more heavy horse than any other lord north of the Neck; has a sphere of influence roughly equal to the size of the Crownlands)

04. House Royce of Runestone - (ancient lineage; considered to be the second-most powerful family in the Vale after the Arryns; Can field twenty thousand men along with the other five Lords Declarant)

05. House Baratheon of Dragonstone - (cadet branch of the current ruling family; controls the royal fleet; possesses the fealty of the lord of the Narrow Sea; can field approximately twenty thousand men)

06. House Yronwood of Yronwood - (ancient lineage; former kings in Dorne; considered to be the second-most powerful family in Dorne after the Martells)

07. House Rowan of Goldengrove - (ancient lineage; possess dominions extending all along the Reach's northern borders)

08. House Bolton of The Dreadfort - (ancient lineage; has an old and respected history; controls a formidable keep; can field approximately five thousand men)

09. House Frey of The Twins - (wealthy; controls a strategic location of in the river Trident gaining a monopoly on in trade route by charging a heavy toll on all those who need to cross; can field about four thousand men)

10. House Lefford of The Goldent Tooth - (controls the gold mines in the Golden Tooth and the vital trade route in River Road)

11. House Grafton of Gulltown - (controls one of the only five major city in the realm)

12, House Fowler of Skyreach - (considered to be the only family capable of rivaling the Yronwoods)

13. House Harlaw of Harlaw - (wealthy; controls the richest and most populated island in the Iron Islands)

14. House Rosby of Rosby - (wealthy; possesses such a considerable wealth that many lords and even the Queen Regent wish to possess and would fight for)

15. House Velaryon of Driftmark - (ancient lineage; formerly one of the greatest and most prestigious families in the realm; provided more consorts to Targaryen kings than any other house outside their own; once controlled the greatest naval fleet in the realm; provided House Baratheon of Dragonstone with 4 war galleys and an army of spearmen; currently controls the royal fleet)

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Only House Hightower is said to be comparable to a great house, only House Redwyne is comparable to House Hightower and only House Manderly is comparable to House Redwyne..

Here's my list..

01. House Hightower of Oldtown - (ancient lineage, former petty kings; rules the oldest and most historically significant city in the realm with close ties to the faith and learning; immensely wealthy and can field three times as many swords as any other house in the Reach)

02. House Redwyne of The Arbor - (possesses the largest naval fleet in the realm excluding the Iron Fleet; controls a monopoly on the best and most prized wine in the realm and immensely wealthy)

03. House Manderly of White Harbor - (ancient lineage; controls one of the only five major cities in the realm; possesses a sizable naval fleet; controls silver mines; command more heavy horse than any other lord north of the Neck; has a sphere of influence roughly equal to the size of the Crownlands)

04. House Royce of Runestone - (ancient lineage; considered to be the second-most powerful family in the Vale after the Arryns; Can field twenty thousand men along with the other five Lords Declarant)

05. House Baratheon of Dragonstone - (cadet branch of the current ruling family; controls the royal fleet; possesses the fealty of the lord of the Narrow Sea; can field approximately twenty thousand men)

06. House Yronwood of Yronwood - (ancient lineage; former kings in Dorne; considered to be the second-most powerful family in Dorne after the Martells)

07. House Rowan of Goldengrove - (ancient lineage; possess dominions extending all along the Reach's northern borders)

08. House Bolton of The Dreadfort - (ancient lineage; has an old and respected history; controls a formidable keep; can field approximately five thousand men)

09. House Frey of The Twins - (wealthy; controls a strategic location of in the river Trident gaining a monopoly on in trade route by charging a heavy toll on all those who need to cross; can field about four thousand men)

10. House Lefford of The Goldent Tooth - (controls the gold mines in the Golden Tooth and the vital trade route in River Road)

11. House Grafton of Gulltown - (controls one of the only five major city in the realm)

12, House Fowler of Skyreach - (considered to be the only family capable of rivaling the Yronwoods)

13. House Harlaw of Harlaw - (wealthy; controls the richest and most populated island in the Iron Islands)

14. House Rosby of Rosby - (wealthy; possesses such a considerable wealth that many lords and even the Queen Regent wish to possess and would fight for)

15. House Velaryon of Driftmark - (ancient lineage; formerly one of the greatest and most prestigious families in the realm; provided more consorts to Targaryen kings than any other house outside their own; once controlled the greatest naval fleet in the realm; provided House Baratheon of Dragonstone with 4 war galleys and an army of spearmen; currently controls the royal fleet)

2000 men of the Narrow Sea is nothing compared to 4800 men from House Caron+One House Caron bannermen House. And House Caron has two other bannermen Houses.
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2000 men of the Narrow Sea is nothing compared to 4800 men from House Caron+One House Caron bannermen House. And House Caron has two other bannermen Houses.

for which lord from the Narrow Sea is this again? Stannis fielded about 20,000 men for his cause all from his vassals in the Narrow Sea.. The Lord of Dragonstone is not considered as a paramount house, yet it as considerable power enough to take on the throne.. As for the Velaryons, most of their power are just remnants of their former glory, but they still have considerable power, plus we know that Aurane Waters currently holds the royal fleet.. And isn't House Caron technically extinct? Are we to include now extinct houses?

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for which lord from the Narrow Sea is this again? Stannis fielded about 20,000 men for his cause all from his vassals in the Narrow Sea.. The Lord of Dragonstone is not considered as a paramount house, yet it as considerable power enough to take on the throne.. As for the Velaryons, most of their power are just remnants of their former glory, but they still have considerable power, plus we know that Aurane Waters currently holds the royal fleet.. And isn't House Caron technically extinct? Are we to include now extinct houses?

The 20,000 were mostly Storm lords.

Aurane is not sworn to Lord Velaryon (who's with Stannis) so House Velaryon does not have Cersei's dromonds.

If Rolland is alive he can be legitimized and House Caron can continue. If not there's always Petyr Pimple's wife.

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@Royce da Bronze Yohn

No evidence, but highly likely. Fowler and Yronwoods are both Wardens of respectively the Prince's Pass and the Boneway. They are also called the major powers of the two passes. Therefore it is likely that the other Houses of the PP and the BW are respectively sworn to the Fowlers and Yronwoods.

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1. Hightower - huge city, many bannerman, probably stronger than most Great Houses. 15,000-20,000 men


2. Redwyne - lucrative wine market, over a thousand trading vessels. 200 warships (times ~25 per ship = 5,000 men) + whatever land forces they have.


3. Manderly - control big city, silver mines, important river, have about 8,000 men


4. Royce - leaders of Lord's Declarant, capable lord in your's truly, Yohn Royce, my guess is ~6,000 men


5. Here its too close to call. Boltons, Freys, Yronwoods, Carons, Leffords, Crakehalls



I think the first 4 are undisputed


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And isn't House Caron technically extinct? Are we to include now extinct houses?

Rolland Storm's fate is not mentioned, so in case he is alive, it is possible that House Caron is Exiled ( since it's territory has now been awarded to House Foote) rather than extinct, all depends on what the status of bastards is when all trueborn siblings die out.

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Manderly - control big city, silver mines, important river, have about 8,000 men

I'm pretty sure that the Manderly's don't field 8,000 men. I think they sent 1500-2500 south with Robb, but can't remember for sure. So even if this was half their strength, they field about 3000-5000 men. The more important point would be their leadership of lesser houses such as Flint of Widow's Watch, as well as their ability to field a large amount of kngihts. Also, as the Lord of White Habour, Wyman Manderly could directly raise additional forces from the city, but these would be poorly trained.

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I'm pretty sure that the Manderly's don't field 8,000 men. I think they sent 1500-2500 south with Robb, but can't remember for sure. So even if this was half their strength, they field about 3000-5000 men. The more important point would be their leadership of lesser houses such as Flint of Widow's Watch, as well as their ability to field a large amount of kngihts. Also, as the Lord of White Habour, Wyman Manderly could directly raise additional forces from the city, but these would be poorly trained.

1,500 men "including some 20 knights with their squires, 200 mounted lances, swordsmen and freeriders, and the remaining foot armed with spears, pikes and tridents".

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1,500 men "including some 20 knights with their squires, 200 mounted lances, swordsmen and freeriders, and the remaining foot armed with spears, pikes and tridents".

By Knights I implied both knights and heavy horse ( ie mounted lances etc, since the North has less knights as it follows the old gods). Thanks for the exact figure though.

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I'm pretty sure that the Manderly's don't field 8,000 men. I think they sent 1500-2500 south with Robb, but can't remember for sure. So even if this was half their strength, they field about 3000-5000 men. The more important point would be their leadership of lesser houses such as Flint of Widow's Watch, as well as their ability to field a large amount of kngihts. Also, as the Lord of White Habour, Wyman Manderly could directly raise additional forces from the city, but these would be poorly trained.

I know that there is no direct evidence supporting this number. But given the Manderly's relatively southern placement, fertile area, wealth, and recent naval development, it is hypothesized that Wyman did not nearly send all of his men to Robb's calling (1,500) , or even to Ramsay's wedding (1,000) later. This topic has been discussed in detail but I will just say that while 8,000 may be too high ( it is my guess) it is certainly more than any other northern house and at least 5,000.

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