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in defense of theon greyjoy


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#1 INCBlackbird

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 07:31 PM

yes, theon has done horrible things, just like 90% of the characters in asoiaf have done. but he is not in any way the black&white villain most of the fans make him out to be. here's a short list of things in theon's defense that people often seem to forget:

 

- The starks were not his real family and they didn't treat him as a family member, except for robb. he was their prisoner and didn't owe them anything.

- Theon took winterfell in a very clever way, with the least bloodshed possible.

- Ramsay came up with the plan to kill the miller boys, he manipulated Theon into saying yes to it, he did the deed and Roose and Ramsay later acknowledge that Theon was basically their scapegoat for the whole thing. (which btw, makes him still responsible, but there's a big difference between this and "he killed two kids" which is what the fandom usually makes of it)

- Theon suffers from horrible guilt nightmares after he commits his worst crimes and asks himself "How did I come to this?" he clearly never meant for any of it to happen the way it happened.

 

Theon is not any better or worse then most of the other characters in asoiaf, the ones who haven't commited heinous crimes are often the ones who weren't put in a difficult position where they had to chose between their own death (or worse) and committing said crime.

 

and before anyone accuses me, I am not excusing the things he did, but there is a reason behind it. he is a realistic person who is flawed and yes selfish (aren't we all?) and he never started off with bad intensions, quite the contrary. please don't simplefy his character.



#2 ghosts in winterfell

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 07:58 PM

Well done OP, I enjoy your Theon posts.

#3 Ser Greg of House House

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 08:56 PM

Thing is Theon is an arrogant dumb prick. Well, least he was. Jaime is arrogant, but charming and smart, so people like him. Also he's badass.

 

The worst thing Theon did was killing the little boys. His treason towards Robb was kind of bad, but I mean... It is war. He was in a position where he would have to betray someone: Robb or his father and his people. He made a choice.



#4 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 09:14 PM

Robb still put his trust in him and he burned that, didnt even have the balls to least say sorry man im going with my family, steals his castle like a bitch turn cloak, still murdered 2 innocent farmer boys. Theon was in charge not Ramsay, he still went with it, that is a fucked up action. He should have nightmares and feel bad, doesnt give them their lives back



#5 Pod The Impaler

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 09:24 PM

I'll say this for him - he had a choice to serve Robb & the Stark cause, or to serve his own blood - his father who was also his king.

 

Much as going against the Starks put him on the wrong side (emotionally, morally, strategically), who would take sides against their own people ? 

 

(Compare how much it took to finally cause Tyrion to break with his own family - and his treatment at their hands was even worse.)

 

Basically, Theon was damned either way.



#6 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:34 PM

 

I'll say this for him - he had a choice to serve Robb & the Stark cause, or to serve his own blood - his father who was also his king.
 
Much as going against the Starks put him on the wrong side (emotionally, morally, strategically), who would take sides against their own people ? 
 
(Compare how much it took to finally cause Tyrion to break with his own family - and his treatment at their hands was even worse.)
 
Basically, Theon was damned either way.


His father treated him 1000000x worse when he got back to Pyke opposed to what the Starks ever did to him. Then he gets back his dad Balon could give two shits about him and next gives Asha Iron Fleet and tells Theon to raid fishing villages. After his dad and people there treated him like such shit even though Theon never wanted to leave at age 9 in the first place and yet on his home coming he is treated like this by everyone and his name as a Greyjoy doesnt even get him shit for support, it was never Theons choice to leave with the Starks, that was cause dumbass Balon started a war he couldnt win, loses 2 sons in battle, and his final son as a hostage.

With all the BS they gave him was much worse then any Stark did for him. Shit Ned only took him because he figured he would be better off with him opposed to Robert. He should have just went back to Rob and inform him what will happen, due to how shitty he was treated by his "family" he should have went with the people who were nice to him

Everyone in the islands should have had at least the mindset that Theon at 9 years of age had no choice and not his fault he was a hotsage, which should have allowed better treatment and not disrespecting to the max, where he felt he had to impress the islanders again. And they still (most of them and for the most part) would betray him at the first choice they got

With Robb telling him he was a brother to him, he could have had at least the balls to give him a heads up, not try and impress a bunch of shit bags who dont care for him at all and go and betray a guy who trusted him to go alone because he felt he was that close to him.

Ned and Robb were both much better to Theon opposed to Balon and Asha ever were to him

#7 Trickrs

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:47 PM

 
His father treated him 1000000x worse when he got back to Pyke opposed to what the Starks ever did to him. Then he gets back his dad Balon could give two shits about him and next gives Asha Iron Fleet and tells Theon to raid fishing villages.

 

But that's how stuff in Westeros works: family above all, no matter how shitty they treat you. Theon "betraying" Robb (someone which he swore nothing) is much less an issue than turning his back to Balon and Asha.



#8 DavosSeaworthy

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:55 PM

 

But that's how stuff in Westeros works: family above all, no matter how shitty they treat you. Theon "betraying" Robb (someone which he swore nothing) is much less an issue than turning his back to Balon and Asha.

Run that by Tyrion.



#9 Dany Girl

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:58 PM

I agree that Theon didn't really owe the Starks anything, but he did owe Robb Stark his allegiance. Robb always treated Theon like a brother, a trusted member of his council, and put trust in him to make an alliance with the Greyjoys for mutual well being.

Theon's biggest mistakes IMO are 2 things:

- not calling Balon out on his ridiculously short sighted plan to fight the North for freedom from the south. That's like Hawaii attacking Guam for independence from America. It makes zero sense. It would make perfect sense if Balon didn't want independence, but instead wanted to get in good with the IT.

- allowing the miller boys to be killed and past off as Starks. This was cruel and has hurt him in the long run. No one will believe him if he tries to tell them he didn't have the Starks killed. And of they do, then how will killing innocent boys look?

#10 Pod The Impaler

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:00 AM

His father treated him 1000000x worse when he got back to Pyke opposed to what the Starks ever did to him

 

 

 

Yes, but ties of blood / parenthood are strong, the need to prove yourself worthy to your own kin. 

 

This is why I added "Compare how much it took to finally cause Tyrion to break with his own family - and his treatment at their hands was even worse".

Tyrion was despised and abused since his birth. He stayed loyal way past the point of all sense, to the degree of going through the Tysha thing, basically so his father would finally accept him as worthy. Despite the horrible way this warped his personality, he kept at it for basically no reward, because they never stopped treating him like a sub-human stain on their family line, a monster not a man. He risked his life to uphold their claim to the throne and was paid back by having his life nearly taken and his legal claim as heir denied. Then they accuse him falsely of murdering someone who was determined to murder him, and make sure to not only rig his trial to find him guilty, but also have his paramour sexually humiliate him in front of Westeros' VIP's. Yet it still finally takes his finding out Tysha was innocent before he decisively breaks all loyalty to House Lannister and decides to be their enemy.

 

It took all that for Tyrion to cast aside his family loyalty; was Theon - with cause but not more cause than that -  going to betray his blood so easily ? Yes, his family are awful compared to the Starks, but he was not given any neutral option. He had to turn against them or turn against his own kin, and blood would spill either way.



#11 Charles F. Peterson

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:57 AM

There is no defense of Theon's betrayal of Robb or his murder of the two miller's boys. I understand the bonds of blood regardless of the relationship but Theon should have honorably and honestly severed his ties to Rob Stark. But what can you say stupid/cruel and slimy runs through Greyjoy blood. Asha must surely be the result of Balon having been cuckolded. Also he should have never allowed Ramsay Snow talk into such a despicable act. It was his vanity, arrogance and childish need to appear, instead of be, strong. Perhaps if he had paid more attention to who the Starks were instead of who he thought he was, he might have turned out a better person.



#12 Game Of Thrones

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:24 AM

Theon did horrible things but he suffered greatly for it so I don't hate him.

#13 A Bastard Snow

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:44 AM

Theon made his choices because he wanted to impress a father that never cared about him to try to take over a land he doesnt even remember whose gods he does not even care for.

 

Theon should have picked the person who was actually family to him the one who he spent the happiest days of his life with Robb.And his betrayal of Robb is rewarded with what?A single boat with a dozen men.I have no sympathy for Theon because he has never cared about anyone but himself and he has not done a single redeeming action.



#14 Game Of Thrones

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:52 AM

Theon should have picked the person who was actually family to him the one who he spent the happiest days of his life with Robb.And his betrayal of Robb is rewarded with what?A single boat with a dozen men.I have no sympathy for Theon because he has never cared about anyone but himself and he has not done a single redeeming action.


Theon doesn't actually have a real family except Robb. Remember how he was treated with less honor than Jon Snow.

Also he saved Jeyne, risking being flayed to death, when "Reek" would have let Ramsay capture the spearwives so he could maybe have half a chicken for dinner. I'd say that's redemption.

#15 Zoravar Singh

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:54 AM

Theon did some bad stuff, but a lot of major characters have done stuff that was much worse. I don't hate Theon nearly as much as I hate  Cersei, Danaerys, Reek, Walder Frey, Roose. ETA I would argue that Theon has suffered fr his crimes many times over, something that most characters haven't sofar.


Edited by Zoravar Singh, 01 August 2014 - 04:56 AM.


#16 ghosts in winterfell

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 05:55 AM



I have no sympathy for Theon because he has never cared about anyone but himself and he has not done a single redeeming action.


Ah yes, not a single thing. Certainly not putting his own well being at risk to save Jayne Poole's life.

#17 INCBlackbird

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:11 AM

Well done OP, I enjoy your Theon posts.

thank you very much :) there will be more ;)



#18 Attitude

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:18 AM

The only two things I can blame Theon are:

 

- He picked the wrong family to go on a WAR with (however, it did most likely save his live not going back to Robb). I mean, of course his father would see him as a little pussy since they see themselfs as rough warriors. He declared himself King and his SON comes to ask him to bend his knee to tKotN. Ironborns don't kneel (that easy). He should've shown more respect and I think it would've been better if he would've gone back to Robb.

 

- After he made the wrong decision he starts fighting for his father. And in his own arrogance he disobeys his fathers order (when will you learn to accept orders?! Well, ramsey sure learned you!) and goes on and captures winterfell. This was his biggest mistake. He just didn't understand the way his father's brain worked and that's what got him in the place he is right now. (IMO of course)


Edited by Attitude, 01 August 2014 - 06:19 AM.


#19 dbunting

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:23 AM

If you can't defend Theon then can you defend the following:

Robb - His lust cost him the Frey alliance and the war
Catelyn - abduction of Tyrion escalated all of the events
Sansa - her telling Cersei of Neds plans to leave directly led to his death
Jaime - Bran, enough said
Stannis - Renly, shadow babies
Davos - betrayed his King by getting Edric Storm to safety
Jon - betreayed his vows to the NW, then betrayed Ygritte, then again betrays NW


Basically all are flawed and have issues

#20 INCBlackbird

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:36 AM

Thing is Theon is an arrogant dumb prick. Well, least he was. Jaime is arrogant, but charming and smart, so people like him. Also he's badass.

 

The worst thing Theon did was killing the little boys. His treason towards Robb was kind of bad, but I mean... It is war. He was in a position where he would have to betray someone: Robb or his father and his people. He made a choice.

I don't believe theon is truely arrogant, he acts arrogant to hide his insecureties, it's pretty clear when you read his pov's, he's not dumb either, the way he took winterfell was really clever. his dumb decisons were due to theon not being able to deal with his emotions and following those rather then the smart path.  and I must agree he's a prick haha :) and I actually think theon's pretty badass, but they didn't exactly do a good job portraying that in the show, they made him out to be quite pathetic most of the time, which is a shame.

but I do think you have a point here! he did act arrogant and he made dumb decisions and in general he acts like a very unlikable person. so I do think that this is why most people dislike him. also because we don't get to read how he got to that point. I think it would have been very different if the book had been about the greyjoy rebellion and aftermath.

I agree that the worst thing he did was allowing ramsay to kill those boys.