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If Balon had to give up Asha not Theon.....


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#1 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:22 PM

Do you guys feel another rebellion would have come sooner? Also you think she would have turned out closer to be like Sansa or an Arya type?

#2 WMarshal

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:28 PM

No, Robert smashed Balon really good. Asha would have been Asha.



#3 Jon of the (Evil) Dead

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:46 PM

I think Asha would have been not as an Ironborn-y, but maybe a bit tomboyish like Arya. But she'd probably be engaged to a greenlander like Edmure, which could have been great for both


Edited by Jon of the (Evil) Dead, 01 August 2014 - 09:48 PM.


#4 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:47 PM

No, Robert smashed Balon really good. Asha would have been Asha.

 

Same personality she keeps you mean? And you feel she would return to the Islands and be loyal to House Greyjoy again?



#5 WMarshal

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:49 PM

She would likely had simply been married off.



#6 Bryanfury

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:12 PM

No, not sooner. Balon moved because the realm was in disarray.

#7 Queen.Sansa.Lannister

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:13 PM

I think Asha would have been not as an Ironborn-y, but maybe a bit tomboyish like Arya. But she'd probably be engaged to a greenlander like Edmure, which could have been great for both


I agree. I think Asha would've been very similar to how Arya turned out.

#8 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:26 PM

She would likely had simply been married off.

 

To which house? Because none of the Stark children were married off yet, except for Sansa in that way, and then Robbs fuck up. But way their house was who in the heck would they match her with that would benefit a Stark cause?

 

Or you saying she would be married off by time she returned home or if she returned home



#9 Lord Damian

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:32 PM

Rob would have tagged Asha and she would have been lady Stark.



#10 not in the face

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:40 PM

Rob would have tagged Asha and she would have been lady Star

That would have happened. Didn't Theon think he would have eventually been married to Sansa



#11 Darksnider05

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:42 PM

That would have happened. Didn't Theon think he would have eventually been married to Sansa

 

That would be a case of Theon being a male being the reason.  The prospects are different with a female Greyjoy.



#12 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:08 PM

No, not sooner. Balon moved because the realm was in disarray.

 

Even if Theon never visited and Balon knowing he was still with the Starks, Balon would still for sure have made the same move though correct?



#13 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:11 PM

Rob would have tagged Asha and she would have been lady Stark.

 

No way would the Starks view a Greyjoy girl (also a captive) worth of marrying the eldest son in the Stark household who will be Lord of Winterfell. They would never trust the fact of Robb being safe either knowing that if something happened to him she became Winterfells lady, no way



#14 Hangover of the Morning

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:27 AM

Theon is 20, when we meet him in AGoT. Come to think about it, isn't it odd that there has never been any talk as to whom Theon should marry. It's perfectly reasonable that he still wouldn't be betrothed especially given his complicated "hostage" situation but you'd expect that the topic has at least been discussed and possibly some arrangements have been made. 

 

I think the idea of marrying Sansa is purely Theon's invention. I doubt that Catelyn or Ned ever mentioned it as a possibility. 

 

To the OP: I can't imagine a situation where the rebels would let Balon keep his position of Lord Paramount while simultaneously letting him to keep his male heir. If anything, they would have taken Asha and Theon both. I am honestly surprised that no other relatives were taken as hostages (e.g. Balon's brothers or nephews). What is the point to only have Theon? You can't really execute him if Balon decides to rebel again because that would be utterly pointless. If Balon rebelled despite the fact that his son and heir has been kept hostage, he is not going to stop, once Ned chopped Theon's head off as a consequence. Executing some of Balon's "lesser relatives" first might just make him reconsider in order to save Theon's life. 

 

Edit: spelling


Edited by Hangover of the Morning, 02 August 2014 - 01:24 PM.


#15 INCBlackbird

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:02 PM

To the OP: I can't imagine a situation where the rebels would let Balon keep his position of Lord Paramount while simultaneously letting him to keep his male heir. If anything, they would have taken Asha and Theon both. I am honestly surprised that no other relatives were taken as hostages (e.g. Balon's brothers or nephews). What is the point to only have Theon? You can't really execute him if Balon decides to rebel again because that would be utterly pointless. If Balon rebelled despite the fact that his son and heir has been kept hostage, he is not going to stop, once Ned chopped Theon's head off as a consequence. Executing some of Balon's "lesser relatives" first might just make him reconsider in order to save Theon's life. 

if Balon rebelled it would have already been clear that he didn't care for Theon, not executing him would not help because the invasion would have started already, it would have been clear that a hostage wasn't gonna stop him anymore. I think it would have been the same if they took more hostages, they execute one, hoping Balon will stop but he doesn't because if he attacks it means he's totally willing to risk the life of his family for the sake of trying to "free his people from oppression".

if he would have rebelled they had to kill theon, not because it would stop the rebellion but to show that Ned stark makes no empty threats, if he didn't execute theon everyone who had had the idea of rebelling would be like "well, he threathens to kill hostages but he doesn't go through with it any way so why would we fear him? even if he does manage to take hostages he wouldn't harm them any way" that is the point of killing a hostage even when in that specific case it wouldn't change anything anyway.



#16 sweetsunray

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:17 PM

Hostage taking should not just be seen as "I can kill your heir if you do something wrong"... If it were just that, then hostages would be locked up in a cell all their life for when needed. The most interesting avantage of separating an heir from a rebellious leader is that the heir becomes under your political influence and separate them from the father's influence. This works best if the hostages are children. That is why especially child hostages are a frequent used leverage.

 

It is indeed curious that Theon has not yet been bethrothed. And I also find it very curious that Asha was not taken hostage either and married to a loyalist.



#17 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:25 PM

Theon is 20, when we meet him in AGoT. Come to think about it, isn't it odd that there has never been any talk as to whom Theon should marry. It's perfectly reasonable that he still wouldn't be berthed especially given his complicated "hostage" situation but you'd expect that the topic has at least been discussed and possibly some arrangements have been made. 

 

I think the idea of marrying Sansa is purely Theon's invention. I doubt that Catelyn or Ned ever mentioned it as a possibility. 

 

To the OP: I can't imagine a situation where the rebels would let Balon keep his position of Lord Paramount while simultaneously letting him to keep his male heir. If anything, they would have taken Asha and Theon both. I am honestly surprised that no other relatives were taken as hostages (e.g. Balon's brothers or nephews). What is the point to only have Theon? You can't really execute him if Balon decides to rebel again because that would be utterly pointless. If Balon rebelled despite the fact that his son and heir has been kept hostage, he is not going to stop, once Ned chopped Theon's head off as a consequence. Executing some of Balon's "lesser relatives" first might just make him reconsider in order to save Theon's life. 

 

Well if they took Euron he would have to be in a dungeon or he would have ended up killing people in Winterfell and then try to escape.

 

Agreed as far as Theon and marriage, No way in hell would Cat and Ned waste their oldest daughter in a prominent family to marry a hostage 



#18 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:27 PM

if Balon rebelled it would have already been clear that he didn't care for Theon, not executing him would not help because the invasion would have started already, it would have been clear that a hostage wasn't gonna stop him anymore. I think it would have been the same if they took more hostages, they execute one, hoping Balon will stop but he doesn't because if he attacks it means he's totally willing to risk the life of his family for the sake of trying to "free his people from oppression".

if he would have rebelled they had to kill theon, not because it would stop the rebellion but to show that Ned stark makes no empty threats, if he didn't execute theon everyone who had had the idea of rebelling would be like "well, he threathens to kill hostages but he doesn't go through with it any way so why would we fear him? even if he does manage to take hostages he wouldn't harm them any way" that is the point of killing a hostage even when in that specific case it wouldn't change anything anyway.

 

Correct me if im wrong but didnt he have the full plan to rebel again once both Robert and Ned were dead? Or was he preparing to do it sometime soon anyway?



#19 Hangover of the Morning

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:28 PM

if Balon rebelled it would have already been clear that he didn't care for Theon, not executing him would not help because the invasion would have started already, it would have been clear that a hostage wasn't gonna stop him anymore. I think it would have been the same if they took more hostages, they execute one, hoping Balon will stop but he doesn't because if he attacks it means he's totally willing to risk the life of his family for the sake of trying to "free his people from oppression".

if he would have rebelled they had to kill theon, not because it would stop the rebellion but to show that Ned stark makes no empty threats, if he didn't execute theon everyone who had had the idea of rebelling would be like "well, he threathens to kill hostages but he doesn't go through with it any way so why would we fear him? even if he does manage to take hostages he wouldn't harm them any way" that is the point of killing a hostage even when in that specific case it wouldn't change anything anyway.

 

That was kinda my point and why I think they should have taken some lesser hostages. Executing them, should Balon rebel, would send the message that Ned and co meant business without having to kill a valuable hostage such as Theon. Disposing of Theon would really accomplish nothing. It is much better to get him on their side (technically it is Theon's father who sentenced him to death) and to try to use him as a figurehead of contra rebellion in order to sway some of the IB not so keen to join Balon. 



#20 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:30 PM

Hostage taking should not just be seen as "I can kill your heir if you do something wrong"... If it were just that, then hostages would be locked up in a cell all their life for when needed. The most interesting avantage of separating an heir from a rebellious leader is that the heir becomes under your political influence and separate them from the father's influence. This works best if the hostages are children. That is why especially child hostages are a frequent used leverage.

 

It is indeed curious that Theon has not yet been bethrothed. And I also find it very curious that Asha was not taken hostage either and married to a loyalist.

 

Thats why Ned took him and not Robert. Robert probably would not have treated him well like Ned, nor teach him how to use weapons and be raised among his "kids"