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Daenerys first big military defeat.


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#1 Seņor de la Tormenta

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:30 PM

As a Baratheon supporter, I just cant wait for the first time Daenerys is bitting the dust in a big, important, clear military defeat where she gets her ass kicked. Every other charácter got one of those, some of them managed to come back from it, some didnt.

 

So, if George doesnt want her to be the perfect undefeated champion at the end of the books, sooner or later she is going to lose one, big time. I want to discuss when, of if you think she is just going to keep winnning and winning with magical plot armor, dragons and all that s.... until the end. Perhaps she is destined to win every fight and suck every time she has to rule, but I really hope she doesnt.

 

One can think of unlist three or four big battles of her forces in the upcoming books, One in Mereen really soon, a dance of dragons with Faegon, and perhaps a fight vs Stannis at the trident as some understand the "blue eyed King with flaming sword who cast no shadow" stuff, and some late clash against the others.

 

 

So what do you think is going to happen?


Edited by Seņor de la Tormenta, 01 August 2014 - 09:54 PM.


#2 JonSnow4President

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:57 PM

As a Baratheon supporter, I just cant wait for the first time Daenerys is bitting the dust in a big, important, clear military defeat where she gets her ass kicked. Every other charácter got one of those, some of them managed to come back from it, some didnt.

 

So, if George doesnt want her to be the perfect undefeated champion at the end of the books, sooner or later she is going to lose one, big time. I want to discuss when, of if you think she is just going to keep winnning and winning with magical plot armor, dragons and all that s.... until the end. Perhaps she is destined to win every fight and suck every time she has to rule, but I really hope she doesnt.

 

One can think of unlist three or four big battles of her forces in the upcoming books, One in Mereen really soon, a dance of dragons with Faegon, and perhaps a fight vs Stannis at the trident as some understand the "blue eyed King with flaming sword who cast no shadow" stuff, and some late clash against the others.

 

 

So what do you think is going to happen?

Well, I don't see her as in store for any real military defeat (maybe Jorah/Barry dies with a splinter force of her army or something), but I see her dying from the betrayal for love (who I believe is the husband to love, who I believe is Jon)



#3 Universal Sword Donor

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:14 PM

I think it already happened at Astapor. The city completely collapsed on itself after she left despite her best efforts. The ongoing struggle in Mereen is another ongoing defeat. 

 

If she suffers an actual military defeat, it's probably going to be at the hands of the WW.



#4 Queen.Sansa.Lannister

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:15 PM

I'm not sure it will be considered a "defeat," but I think she will lose her life in the War for the Dawn.

#5 Seņor de la Tormenta

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:15 PM

I think it already happened at Astapor. The city completely collapsed on itself after she left despite her best efforts. The ongoing struggle in Mereen is another ongoing defeat. 

 

If she suffers an actual military defeat, it's probably going to be at the hands of the WW.

best efforts?



#6 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:24 PM

EURON THE DRAGON CAPTOR FTW!!!!!!!!!



#7 Hodor's Dragon

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:26 PM

My expectation is that, if Daenerys loses, it will be at the climactic point of the story.



#8 Sir Lee knot

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:44 PM

I think she'll certainly die but not in combat. Probably by some Red Wedding esq scenario.

 

The fact that she has Dragons kind of makes any huge blackwater defeat kind of impossible. Someone else already said that maybe Barristan, Daario or someone gets defeated with a splinter force which seems likely.

 

I mostly find issue with the fact you think she's had magical plot armor and that's the only reason she's got this far. While of course the only reason is because GRRM wrote it like that but it doesn't mean she didn't win for good reasons.



#9 JonSnow4President

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:48 PM

I think she'll certainly die but not in combat. Probably by some Red Wedding esq scenario.

 

The fact that she has Dragons kind of makes any huge blackwater defeat kind of impossible. Someone else already said that maybe Barristan, Daario or someone gets defeated with a splinter force which seems likely.

 

I mostly find issue with the fact you think she's had magical plot armor and that's the only reason she's got this far. While of course the only reason is because GRRM wrote it like that but it doesn't mean she didn't win for good reasons.

I'm not going to be the one to turn this into a dany hate thread, but the brains (or lack thereof) of her Essos operations are discussed http://asoiaf.wester...-foes/?hl=fault

 

I'll be happy to take it up in that thread if you want to discuss how you don't think a lot of her story is plot armor.



#10 Universal Sword Donor

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:49 PM

best efforts?

 

Leaving the ruling council. She obviously wasn't going to stay.



#11 JonSnow4President

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:52 PM

 

Leaving the ruling council. She obviously wasn't going to stay.

We have a very different definition of best efforts.  



#12 Universal Sword Donor

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:55 PM

We have a very different definition of best efforts.  

 

Yes but I don't have a very high opinion of Dany's skills as a ruler.



#13 Lord Damian

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:59 PM

I have a feeling that she will keep winning until the very last battle at the end of the book when the King or Queen in the North successfully defeats her, thus preventing her from conquering the North. Where Torhen Stark bent the knee and did not fight, the Stark in the North will and they will win, casting this inbred bitch to the netherworld with her beloved savage husband Drogo, or the seven hells, who cares.



#14 Icy

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:00 PM

Well, so far she's been this perfect Mary Sue-esque girl who basically has most things handed to her on a silver platter (last of the dragons, Khal Drogo, dragon eggs, Daario killing the rest of the Second Sons because of her "beauty" ) and hasn't technically had a big defeat.

Thus, seeing as how this is ASOIAF, I think she'll either die, or suffer a major defeat that weakens all of her forces to the point that she becomes too weak to fight. I doubt it'll happen in (the beginning of) TWoW, though - as someone else mentioned, her defeat could be the climactic turn for the series that will end up changing a lot. Accordingly, I believe it'll happen near the end of TWoW or somewhere around ADoS.

Edited by Icy, 01 August 2014 - 11:01 PM.


#15 Sir Lee knot

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:03 PM

 

I'm not going to be the one to turn this into a dany hate thread, but the brains (or lack thereof) of her Essos operations are discussed http://asoiaf.wester...-foes/?hl=fault

 

I'll be happy to take it up in that thread if you want to discuss how you don't think a lot of her story is plot armor.

The premise of the link is ultimately heavily biased and untrue. The conclusions it makes don't take into account of different circumstances and in some cases makes false statements. I just won't even start.

 

The problem with not turning it into a Dany hate thread is that it already is a Dany hate thread. The OP is talking about how he can't wait for her to be humiliatingly defeated. It's like making a thread about why gay people shouldn't be married but then saying it shouldn't be turned into a homosexual hate thread.



#16 JonSnow4President

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:10 PM

 

 

The premise of the link is ultimately heavily biased and untrue. The conclusions it makes don't take into account of different circumstances and in some cases makes false statements. I just won't even start.

 

The problem with not turning it into a Dany hate thread is that it already is a Dany hate thread. The OP is talking about how he can't wait for her to be humiliatingly defeated. It's like making a thread about why gay people shouldn't be married but then saying it shouldn't be turned into a homosexual hate thread.

 

In this situation, I completely disagree. 

 

Every other "leader" character has suffered some major defeat, either militarily or politically, some of which resulted in death.

 

Robb and the Red Wedding

Jon and the stabby Mcstabbertons

Jaime and Robb

Ned and the asshole king

Stannis and the Blackwater

Renly and Stannis Jr.

Robert and a boar (actually, Cersei)

Cersei and high septon

Tyrion and slavery (and kidnapping), and a farcical trial, and Oberyn monologuing.

 

The closest we have that didn't is Tywin, whose death wasn't suffered from a political or military standpoint.  IMO, Dany needs something to go wrong militarily, especially since she's been getting away with bust or bust plans that somehow end up booming.  I would hope that even those who consider Dany a "wonderful grey character," and then proceed to whitewash her into perfection, realize that something needs to go wrong for her at some point, or it just wouldn't feel Martin-esque.



#17 Universal Sword Donor

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:13 PM

 

 

The premise of the link is ultimately heavily biased and untrue. The conclusions it makes don't take into account of different circumstances and in some cases makes false statements. I just won't even start.

 

The problem with not turning it into a Dany hate thread is that it already is a Dany hate thread. The OP is talking about how he can't wait for her to be humiliatingly defeated. It's like making a thread about why gay people shouldn't be married but then saying it shouldn't be turned into a homosexual hate thread.

 

 

I believe your particular view would be in the minority, though yeah this is more or less a Dany hate thread.

 

She has yet to suffer a big setback. The closest thing to a setback she's experienced was Drogo and Rhaego dying, and she got her 3 dragons out of that.



#18 Modelex

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:20 PM

I don't see why she has to lose any battle just to make people here happy. She has lost enough in her life. And no I don't think she will otherwise die to service another character such as Jon

She will die or lose on her own terms. Deal with it

#19 The Drunkard

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:24 PM

I don't think she'll have a (direct) defeat until she arrives at Westeros. She's dragging her heels in Essos enough without her facing another setback.



#20 Sir Lee knot

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:27 PM

In this situation, I completely disagree. 

 

Every other "leader" character has suffered some major defeat, either militarily or politically, some of which resulted in death.

 

Robb and the Red Wedding

Jon and the stabby Mcstabbertons

Jaime and Robb

Ned and the asshole king

Stannis and the Blackwater

Renly and Stannis Jr.

Robert and a boar (actually, Cersei)

Cersei and high septon

Tyrion and slavery (and kidnapping), and a farcical trial, and Oberyn monologuing.

 

The closest we have that didn't is Tywin, whose death wasn't suffered from a political or military standpoint.  IMO, Dany needs something to go wrong militarily, especially since she's been getting away with bust or bust plans that somehow end up booming.  I would hope that even those who consider Dany a "wonderful grey character," and then proceed to whitewash her into perfection, realize that something needs to go wrong for her at some point, or it just wouldn't feel Martin-esque.

 

 

I believe your particular view would be in the minority, though yeah this is more or less a Dany hate thread.

 

She has yet to suffer a big setback. The closest thing to a setback she's experienced was Drogo and Rhaego dying, and she got her 3 dragons out of that.

Again. More untrue statements. Dany has suffered many failures.

 

- Crossing the Redwaste results in the starvation and death of many of her people.

 

- Trusting the Qartheen results in the stealing of her Dragons.

 

- Not setting up a more stable government in Astapor results in turmoil.

 

- Not killing the Yunkish and setting up at least some government in Yunkai results in the sacking of Astapor and the eventual problem we have in ADWD

 

- Not treating the slavers of Meereen better results in the Harpy problem.

 

- Not spending time to train her Dragons results in one of the biggest set backs of them being feral and having to re tame them.

 

Saying she doesn't have any set backs or failures is clearly BS. Robb never lost a battle either but look at all the problems he had.