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Jon, Bloodraven, Mel, and TWOW Spoilers


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18 replies to this topic

#1 WilliamWesterosiWallace

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:46 PM

So, at the end of TWOW Jon is either dead, or really really close to being dead. And we all know the major importance that he has to the story.

 

Knowing that, do you think that, during the moment Jon is being (I assume he really died) resurrected, could Bloodraven actually get in Mel's way, and vice versa? Since Bran and Bloodraven seem to be guiding Stannis into making a king's blood sacrifice for the Heart Tree through the screaming ravens, could it happen that both "resurrecions" happen at the same time? And if so, there are two questions to be made:

 

1. Whose one would "count"? Mel's kiss of fire or Bloordaven's Heart Tree sacrifice?

 

2. We know through Beric Dondarrion that a man loses almost all of his memories from before when he is resurrected with the fiery kiss. Does the Heart Tree have the same effect, or does it work like a video-game like "respawn"?

 

So, what do you guys think?


Edited by WilliamWesterosiWallace, 01 August 2014 - 09:48 PM.


#2 sj4iy

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:42 PM

I don't think he's dead, personally...but I think that however it happens that he wakes up, it will be with the help of one or all of them.

#3 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:47 PM

Mel knows he is really important, and knew he was in danger, I wouldnt be shocked if she did a glamour switch (like with Mance and Rattle) to save Jon and then gain his trust fully by showing him what his brothers just did to "him"



#4 JonSnow4President

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 12:12 AM

Mel knows he is really important, and knew he was in danger, I wouldnt be shocked if she did a glamour switch (like with Mance and Rattle) to save Jon and then gain his trust fully by showing him what his brothers just did to "him"

Except we have a JON POV, with JON's thoughts and JON noticing he got stabbed...



#5 greggs92

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:23 AM

I think he'll be alive he might not even need magic to come back, he got stabbed but I mean people irl have gruesome injuries and survive all the time ie 50 cent. It could all be a eed heiring, the vaymer prologue about warging and second lives and mel being at the wall us as readers arw looking for magic to bring him back but instead he survives on his own

#6 DamoDega

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:11 AM

I think he'll be alive he might not even need magic to come back, he got stabbed but I mean people irl have gruesome injuries and survive all the time ie 50 cent.

I hope he get saved with magic just to allow faster recovery/faster story progression... don't want chapters and chapters of Jon in a bed thinking "eh, when i full recover i should do this and that" :D



#7 WilliamWesterosiWallace

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:21 PM

Dead or not isn't the point of the discussion I'm trying to make. The point is, IF Jon is indeed dead, will he lose his memories too, should he be resurrected by Mel? And will Bloodraven's resurrection be any different? How do resurrections work - if they do - in the North?



#8 Hand to Lord Davos

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:31 PM

Not a clue. We have no evidence, other than the warning comments about forgetting yourself entirely in a year or two.

#9 Poppa Bolton

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:50 PM

Good question.  He might lose some of himself, but I think Dondarrion forgot so much because he died six different times.  Who knows how much he forgot the first time he died. 



#10 Caerl Targaryen

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 04:19 PM

If Jon is revived in a manner similar to Beric Dondarrion and we still get Jon's POV from that point forward, it could help us finally understand what happens to those that are revived that way. Both undead/revived Jon and Jon being trapped in Ghost's body have a lot of potential to help explain some important details of the story. If GRRM goes with the latter at all, I doubt it'll be for more than a few chapters.

#11 WilliamWesterosiWallace

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 06:50 PM

There is a quote from Beric, that I don't have right now, where he asks Thoros "Are you my mother? Six times, Thoros. Six times too many." or something like that. My point here is, as we have all of the hype with the bronze blade and the woman in Bran's tree-warging, I think that king's blood is useful in the North as much as it is in Asshai. If Jon is brought back to his body, and loses his memories, that changes his arc completely. Jon would, in theory, "reset" to being early AGoT Jon, knowing, literally, nothing. He'd know how to fight, or, quoting Beric (with some mistakes), "I know I had a castle in the Dornish Marches. I know there was a girl I was supposed to marry, and I know I came here under the orders of a Hand. But the rest is mist". So, if Jon only has a vague idea that he is who he is, how much does his arc change? How would he deal with this new "wolfy" Jon? TWOW needs to hurry... :)



#12 Big Daddy

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 07:27 PM

I don't think we are getting Jon back where he loses memories or reverts to a mentally younger version of himself. Martin can only be doing this to move Jon FORWARD, not BACKWARD.

 

It may be quite different than Beric or unCat. At least, I really hope so.


Edited by Big Daddy, 02 August 2014 - 07:28 PM.


#13 Caerl Targaryen

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 07:30 PM

We really don't know how many memories people lose when they're brought back. Beric was brought back many times and seemed to have lost the most. Cat was brought back too but that was after being dead for days and after losing her mind at the Red Wedding. If Jon is revived rather quickly or he jumps into Ghost for a period of time first, then he may not lose anything that significant at all. The resurrections we've seen so far have all been a bit different from each other. Jon is yet another unique case because he's a warg.

#14 bemused

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 08:14 PM

I predict he's very far from dead.



#15 WilliamWesterosiWallace

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 10:15 PM

We really don't know how many memories people lose when they're brought back. Beric was brought back many times and seemed to have lost the most. Cat was brought back too but that was after being dead for days and after losing her mind at the Red Wedding. If Jon is revived rather quickly or he jumps into Ghost for a period of time first, then he may not lose anything that significant at all. The resurrections we've seen so far have all been a bit different from each other. Jon is yet another unique case because he's a warg.

I hadn't brought into the scene the fact that he is a warg... his time in Ghost will probably shelter his memories a little, one would think, and if it is the case that he is indeed resurrected, it may be for the better that he was in Ghost for a while, thus stopping him from paying a visit to good ol' Westerosi Satan. The only question left can only be answered by GRRM on TWoW... who will resurrect Jon?



#16 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 10:31 PM

Except we have a JON POV, with JON's thoughts and JON noticing he got stabbed...

 

GRRM has pulled a bait and switch before, its not out of the question to pull some funky crap like that

 

If Thoros can revive Beric 7 times, and Mel at the wall has stronger powers then ever, if he is dead, should be an easy bring back to life prayer


Edited by Wavey Sauce, 02 August 2014 - 10:32 PM.


#17 JoeyBanana

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:06 PM

I made a thread once about the paralells between Jon and Berric. http://asoiaf.wester...berric-and-jon/

 

If he needs to be revived, the already established red priest method seems like a plausible solution, especially considering they share some interesting similarities. Bloodraven is just as possible, of course. I like the idea of leaving the resurrection and who actually did the deed open, it would fit well into the unavoidable Old Gods vs R'hllor conflict aswell.



#18 JonSnow4President

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:20 PM

 

GRRM has pulled a bait and switch before, its not out of the question to pull some funky crap like that

 

If Thoros can revive Beric 7 times, and Mel at the wall has stronger powers then ever, if he is dead, should be an easy bring back to life prayer

Um, have we ever had a POV of a character pretending to be another character to such a degree that there very thoughts are altered (the answer is no, btw).



#19 Caerl Targaryen

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 03:52 AM

We've definitely never had a POV of a character that's been glamored and have had their memories altered. Jon's last chapter in ADWD is definitely his POV. No one else at the Wall would want to save "Arya" from Ramsay as much as Jon. It's him.