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Renly was about to defeat Stannis, right?


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212 replies to this topic

#1 Ser Yo of House Lo

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:33 PM

I mean, he outnumbered his forces something like 10 to 1 right?

 

P.S- This is based on the assumption that there were no shadow babies.

 

P.S.S- Would he have executed Stannis?

 

 

Edit: Holy hell that's alot of replies, this is my first post I did not expect this to get so much attention. 

Is it always like this? lmao


Edited by Ser Yo of House Lo, 09 August 2014 - 10:36 AM.


#2 Pod The Impaler

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:38 PM

Chances of it are very high. Yet, nothing is certain.



#3 Wavey Sauce

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:39 PM

As a commander I still feel Stannis could have something up his sleeve, at least make it a pain in the ass enough where Renly wouldnt win in 1 day then march on KL.

 

Its not like Stannis would take all his army and navy full force guns blazing and attack Renlys host head on, Stannis is still one of the smartest commanders in the land so who knows what he could have schemed



#4 Lord Damian

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 12:02 AM

Stannis could sail off shore as most of his forces had the ablity to dis-embark and embark thanks to Davos and his friends. Renly and the Tyrells seem to have just been ignoring Stannis altogether which I think really pissed him off even more but kind of funny until that Shadow came.



#5 GallowsKnight

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 12:22 AM

More like 4 to 1, as Renly had the 20k cavalry leaving most of his men at bitterbridge. But yes it's very likely he would have lost. But Stannis had made the best of the bad situation and was likely well dug in.

 

Renly wouldn't need to execute Stannis. He'd pretty strongly insinuated to Tarly and Loras that he wasn't to be taken alive.



#6 ambi76

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:10 AM

 

Renly wouldn't need to execute Stannis. He'd pretty strongly insinuated to Tarly and Loras that he wasn't to be taken alive.

 

I laways thought Renly knew his brother well enought to think Stannis would never let himself be taken alive if Renly's forces would win (breaking before bending), hence the "If  When we win, Stannis will be pretty dead, so no shenanigans with his body, mkay?".



#7 Crowford

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:28 AM

IF Stannis had been captured, I have a hard time imagining Renly would execute him. First of all, it's his brother. Kinslaying seems to be one of the greatest taboos in Westeros, and for that reason alone Renly would hesitate to unnecessarily take Stannis' life (and with him already being defeated and captured, it would clearly be unnecessary). Furthermore, it would make Renly look like a tyrant. His only claim to the throne was basically saying "I can win this war and would be a better King", because if he went by relation to Robert he would have to defer to Stannis. So executing him would basically scream "show trial", since there really isn't anything Renly can accuse his brother of. And lastly, it seems that outright death sentences for nobles are quite rare in Westeros. Apparently you are supposed to either send them to the wall, keep them hostage, or even to release them and just keep them on a short leash.



#8 Poppa Bolton

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:54 AM

Yeah, before Renly was taken from us through treachery and jealousy, he was in the best position to win the war. 



#9 Seņor de la Tormenta

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:02 AM

I kind of remember he was making Renly fight him with the sun against him, and perhaps he could arm the crews of his vast navy to even the numbers. Add that since he arriaved earlier he likely had chosen the terrain, and that Renly only had mounted knights, so perhaps an scenario like Poiteirs could be delivered.



#10 JonisHenryTudor

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:10 AM

Numbers are just illusions, and it is not always the case that the army with the greater number wins. Sometimes larger armies are unwieldy and less disciplined. Renly was more of a Courtier than a commander, this would have been an issue I think. 

 

Could Renly have won, yes. Would he? No idea. 

 

I do think, however, that Stannis would have made it very difficult for Renly to walk out of there with a simple "scratch". Stannis could have won, but he also could have decimated Renly's army in the process of a loss. My guess would be that Stannis would have attempted to get to Renly first in an attempt to kill him. Alexander used this tactic quite a bit during his march east. 

 

 



#11 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:20 AM

I kind of remember he was making Renly fight him with the sun against him, and perhaps he could arm the crews of his vast navy to even the numbers. Add that since he arriaved earlier he likely had chosen the terrain, and that Renly only had mounted knights, so perhaps an scenario like Poiteirs could be delivered.

Most certainly not. He's tethered to Storms End, and any castle garrison makes sure that there's no such terrain for potential besiegers to use. He'd have to shovel a lot of earth to change that.



#12 GallowsKnight

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:31 AM

 

I laways thought Renly knew his brother well enought to think Stannis would never let himself be taken alive if Renly's forces would win (breaking before bending), hence the "If  When we win, Stannis will be pretty dead, so no shenanigans with his body, mkay?".

I agree Stannis would not be the type to surrender and Renly knows that. But Renly never allows even the possibility that Stannis might be captured, be it from wounds, being knocked out or even betrayed. While he doesn't say it out loud, Loras and Randyl would make sure he's finished off to prevent anymore hiccups.



#13 Minsc

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:34 AM

Numbers are just illusions, and it is not always the case that the army with the greater number wins. Sometimes larger armies are unwieldy and less disciplined. Renly was more of a Courtier than a commander, this would have been an issue I think. 

 

Could Renly have won, yes. Would he? No idea. 

 

I do think, however, that Stannis would have made it very difficult for Renly to walk out of there with a simple "scratch". Stannis could have won, but he also could have decimated Renly's army in the process of a loss. My guess would be that Stannis would have attempted to get to Renly first in an attempt to kill him. Alexander used this tactic quite a bit during his march east. 

 

 

 

There is no reason to believe that Renly would march in the front to confront Stannis, simply he would be much better off just sitting back and watching as both Loras and R.Tarly decimate Stannis with their vanguards.



#14 UtherSnow

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:35 AM

The Game of Thrones has many rules, all of which can be broken. Also, you can cheat.

 

All Stannis had to do was ask his guys to give a leech-worth of blood. 'Here you go, Mel. What can you do with that?' Renly's whole army wouldn't know how to fight shadows. Chances are they'd hack each other to pieces. Job done. On to KL.

 

What else do we know? Your ordinary foot-slogger can easily change sides. Things start going against you, what would you do? You'd be stupid if you didn't say you wanted to live. All you're bothered about is getting back home as soon as possible.

Desertion isn't cowardice, it's self-preservation.

 

Where did Tywin do most of his fighting? He's a great delegator. One essential any boss needs. The other essential is knowing when to lead from the front, and that's not on the first day of battle. Bending rules isn't cheating. It's something that can be allowed when you play The Game of Thrones.

 

Make quick adjustments to your moral stance and expectation of others.

 

Who can think of other rules? I've got migraine, so I'm off......



#15 Seņor de la Tormenta

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:39 AM

Most certainly not. He's tethered to Storms End, and any castle garrison makes sure that there's no such terrain for potential besiegers to use. He'd have to shovel a lot of earth to change that.

You are probably right.



#16 David Selig

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:41 AM

I kind of remember he was making Renly fight him with the sun against him, and perhaps he could arm the crews of his vast navy to even the numbers. Add that since he arriaved earlier he likely had chosen the terrain, and that Renly only had mounted knights, so perhaps an scenario like Poiteirs could be delivered.

Stannis' navy had 15 000 sailors in it? Wow. How many ships did he have?

#17 JonisHenryTudor

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:50 AM

 

There is no reason to believe that Renly would march in the front to confront Stannis, simply he would be much better off just sitting back and watching as both Loras and R.Tarly decimate Stannis with their vanguards.

No, but again Renly doesn't come off as a capable commander. He likely would stay back (as you say), and again there is nothing to suggest, other than numbers, that Loras and Tarly would decimate Stannis. 

 

During the Battle of Northampton, some of the Lancastrian forces switched sides. 

At Towton, the Yorkist were heavily outnumbered and still won. 

 

Point being is that warfare is never certain. So if Renly and Stannis fought, you may be right that Stannis would not reach Renly, but it is far from certain who the victors would be. 

 

 

And of course there is Thermopylae where the Greeks probably could have won if it weren't for the traitor. They still had what seemed insurmountable odds to overcome, but they were breaking the Persian spirit. For the remainder of the wars, the Greeks remained outnumbered and still won. 



#18 David Selig

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:54 AM

It's not "just numbers". It's the quality of the troops too. Renly had the elite forces of the Reach and the Stormlands, all mounted and well equipped. Stannis had a ragtag bunch with barely any cavalry, and he had the Storm's End defenders at his back which made for a horrible position tactically. Sure, nothing is 100% certain, but Stannis winning this would've been extremely unlikely.

#19 DamoDega

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:55 AM

Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he’s copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.[49]

Donal Noye, to Jon Snow

 

 

“ I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?[44]

– Stannis, to Theon Greyjoy

 

 

 

Stannis by badassery

 

I can see at some point Renly's men recognize Stannis as the true leader and switch to him.

I can see Stannis don't bend and end up breaked against another more tough opponent... but Renly?

 

"he’s copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day"

 

He will do some bitch move move before the end, and men will lose respect, specially if they see Stannis will/sacrifice/badassery on the other side

 

Renly was all about charisma, but not the kind of charisma that work in war times



#20 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:56 AM

Stannis' navy had 15 000 sailors in it? Wow. How many ships did he have?

Pretty much the entire Royal Fleet, the ships of the Lords of the Narrow Sea and Salladhor Saan's fleet. Let's call it 200 ships of 100 oars or more. At least 25,000 oarsmen alone, sailors not included.