Renly was about to defeat Stannis, right?

[Minsc]

No, but again Renly doesn't come off as a capable commander. He likely would stay back (as you say), and again there is nothing to suggest, other than numbers, that Loras and Tarly would decimate Stannis.

There is nothing to judge whether or not Renly was a capable commander, however the fact is that he still had one of the most experienced and famous soldiers in the realm, R. Tarly, within his command.

During the Battle of Northampton, some of the Lancastrian forces switched sides.

Most likely it would be Stannis's men that switch sides.

At Towton, the Yorkist were heavily outnumbered and still won.

The Yorkist were far less outnumbered then Stannis, furthermore they received reinforcements in the battle which Stannis wouldn't recieve in contrast Renly likely could.

And of course there is Thermopylae where the Greeks probably could have won if it weren't for the traitor.

The Greeks greatly benefited from their strategic location at Thermoplyae, while in contrast Stannis was practically out in the open while surrounded on both sides.

[Minsc]

“ Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he’s copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.^[49] ”

– Donal Noye, to Jon Snow

Noye is a doofus that has no idea about what he is talking about, as seen by the fact he thinks Robert was true steel. Furthermore, he hasn't seen Renly since Renly was around nine years old.

I can see at some point Renly's men recognize Stannis as the true leader and switch to him.

Likely the exact opposite, in where Stannis's men realize that Renly is the true leader and switch to him.

[David Selig]

Pretty much the entire Royal Fleet, the ships of the Lords of the Narrow Sea and Salladhor Saan's fleet. Let's call it 200 ships of 100 oars or more. At least 25,000 oarsmen alone, sailors not included.

Do are warships have oars? Honestly I have never paid much attention to such navy details.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Do are warships have oars? Honestly I have never paid much attention to such navy details.

That's basically what makes them warships at the given technological development. The Royal Fleet sports an average standard of 100 oars per ship, with some 200s and at least the Fury with 300, same as Salladhor Saan's Valyrian.

[Littlestfinger]

Pretty much the entire Royal Fleet, the ships of the Lords of the Narrow Sea and Salladhor Saan's fleet. Let's call it 200 ships of 100 oars or more. At least 25,000 oarsmen alone, sailors not included.

A mob of oarsmen against knights would be a massacre. Undrilled, unprofessional light infantry are nothing but lance fodder for heavy cavalry. The oarsmen probably have some training at fighting in boarding actions but that is nothing like the skill set required for infantry to stand against heavy cavalry on open ground. Much better to leave them on their ships, at least there they won't get in the way of the real soldiers.

Renly's vistory wasn't absolutely guaranteed but the battle was Renly's to lose. He may not have been much of a general, but he had the sense to know that and delegate authority to followers like Tarly and the Tyrells who were good battlefield commanders. And if Stannis had any special plan beyond "R'hllor promised the Red Woman I'll win," there's no sign of it.

[DamoDega]

Noye is a doofus that has no idea about what he is talking about, as seen by the fact he thinks Robert was true steel. Furthermore, he hasn't seen Renly since Renly was around nine years old.

Likely the exact opposite, in where Stannis's men realize that Renly is the true leader and switch to him.

1- Robert at the Trident WAS pure steel.

He was a broken-man after Lyanna's death but no opponent breaked him

In Noye there you have GRRM straight point of view,, simple as that

2- True leader?

When Renly proven it?

He had that nice guy charisma that work well on peace time and will make him a loved king

But war times is all different game

Stannis was a Baratheon himself, the successor one by right, and showed a will, sacrifice and he don't mind suffer the same adversity of his men, history proven that soldiers respect a lot that kind of leader

Julius Caesar was like Renly + Stannis combined... he won the plebs with his "Renly" kind of charisma, but is with his badass Stannis side that won legionary's respect

I can see RB soldiers come back to the camp after a bloody horrible stall day trying to break SB defenses only to find Renly coming out of his silk tend like "hi guyz, how's going war? I'm already king? Did you notice my new haircut? I'm awesome, i'm not? When you was out i invented a new joke, did you want hear it?"

Plus plot

I can easy see GRRM make clear to RB soldiers how theyr "leader" is'nt so inclined to sweat and bleed at theyr side, when Stannis will fight to the death side-by-side with the most lowborn of his men

Stannis is'nt easy to like, he will promise sufference. But you know he will suffer with you

Renly promise happyness & rainbows, but when sufference times come, he will pat pat your shoulder and say "Good luck bro" while planning the terms of his own safe surrender. Wich with Stannis know don't exist (treason = death), so he will just run and bitch away, probably with Loras

Soldiers can smell that kind of shit

Again, peace time charisma =/= war time charisma

Let's be clear, there are probably many generals more charismatic than Stannis even during a military campaign, but Renly? Lol, no

[Trigger Warning]

Really now, Stannis is caught between Storm's End and 20,000 heavy horse with men of dubious loyalty.

If not for some miracle or magic the man is done.

And look what happened.

[JonisHenryTudor]

There is nothing to judge whether or not Renly was a capable commander, however the fact is that he still had one of the most experienced and famous soldiers in the realm, R. Tarly, within his command.

Most likely it would be Stannis's men that switch sides.

The Yorkist were far less outnumbered then Stannis, furthermore they received reinforcements in the battle which Stannis wouldn't recieve in contrast Renly likely could.

The Greeks greatly benefited from their strategic location at Thermoplyae, while in contrast Stannis was practically out in the open while surrounded on both sides.

I am not arguing that Renly would have lost, but to call a battle that never happened. The Greeks didn't always have the "prime" spot, at least not throughout the war. At any rate the point is, regardless of the circumstances, that any battle can be won or lost regardless of numbers. We have no idea how the battle would have unfolded. Of course it looks that Renly "likely" would have won, but that was the case for most battles where one side was outnumbered. It is only in hindsight that we can begin to see small advantages here or there.

But alas, just like threads about Robb, Rhaegar, etc....the shawdow baby killed Renly and Stannis took the field, figuratively.

[IRON BANK]

Many are forgetting that Renly had a near by banner who held a castle. to run to, shield a retreat, or use to trap. so I think a prlonged engagement would have went to Renly.

[The Marquis de Leech]

In Noye there you have GRRM straight point of view,, simple as that

Not necessarily. Noye has his own value system, which is militaristic, meritocratic, and austere. Renly is an infinitely superior diplomat to Stannis, but Noye would never give him credit for it, because Noye doesn't do fancy diplomacy. Renly's military methods involve extensive delegation (delegation by necessity), rather than leading from the front like Robert, so, again, that isn't likely to fit with Noye's view. And Robert always was a godawful politician, even when he was "the true steel".

Simply quoting the blacksmith without probing the underlying ideas is a mistake.

[Crowford]

In Noye there you have GRRM straight point of view,, simple as that

Completely random assertion. The opinion of one person who was clearly not up-to-date on who he was talking about. Might as well call Shagga his point of view and say that GRRM thinks everythink would be better if there are more manhoods fed to goats.

I can see RB soldiers come back to the camp after a bloody horrible stall day trying to break SB defenses only to find Renly coming out of his silk tend like "hi guyz, how's going war? I'm already king? Did you notice my new haircut? I'm awesome, i'm not? When you was out i invented a new joke, did you want hear it?"

I can't. And I assume no one else can either, since not even the show turned Renly into that much of a gay stereotype as he apparently is in your imagination.

Stannis is'nt easy to like, he will promise sufference. But you know he will suffer with you

Renly promise happyness & rainbows, but when sufference times come, he will pat pat your shoulder and say "Good luck bro" while planning the terms of his own safe surrender. Wich with Stannis know don't exist (treason = death), so he will just run and bitch away, probably with Loras

Great if you are into heroically bleeding to death while proclaiming how awesome it is to die for glory and righteousness. But unless you are one of those nutters, you will be very glad to be on the side of the guy who currently holds almost all advantages, even if he is not personally in the vanguard and shouting.

This is not to say that personal admiration for a leader can't be an important factor for an army. But the average expendable footsoldier is not going to be disappointed that Renly doesn't stand side by side with them in the mud, because no one expects it (and it would be idiotic). Even military leaders with a more hands-on approach, like Stannis and Robb, have a terrain-appropriate mount and a personal guard retinue, and are not the first to jump into the shield wall either. And the higher-ups, who may or may not wish Renly to take a more active role, also know that there is more at stake, and are not going to recklessly switch sides just because their King isn't personally clawing at the enemy's front. This is an army of thousands, not a small fantasy warband. Cameraderie between leader and troops are never going to be that much of an important factor.

[Littlestfinger]

The Greeks didn't always have the "prime" spot, at least not throughout the war.

They also weren't that badly outnumbered for most of the war. Delbruck pretty conclusively proved that the notion of a million-man Persian army was pure propaganda.

[WierWood Wolf]

The feeling I had reading of the battle to come was one of overwhelming fear and doubt WRT Stannis and his side. Stannis knew he was up against it vs Renley' s forces. Renley and company had the better army, supply and field commanders. Stannis had...well Stannis, an inferior army, position and supply logistics. Stannis wasn't able to chose the ground from which to give battle and no path of retreat. He was screwed in this fight and he knew it. As great a commander as Stannis is, I think he knew this wasn't a fight he could win or at least it was a fight that would cost him so dearly, he wouldn't be able to continue on to KL even had he won.

No matter how badass you think Stan the Man is, the Mannis was goin down this time and he knew it.

[Talleyrand]

To say Stannis is likely to win requires an excessive amount of ignoring the situation - Renly has the numbers, troop quality, an open plain perfect for cavalry and has men who can attack from both sides.

To point out a few select battles where a smaller force has won serves no purpose as it ignores the specifics of the battles and why they are regarded as such shocking victories. At Poiters, Agincourt and Crecy, the English chose their ground well (unlike Stannis) - at Poiters there was hedges blocking a full cavalry charge, at Crecy the English were atop a hill and at Agincourt the French Knights mostly had to slog through a muddy field. The French faced division within their armies too with some knights charging without orders at Agincourt and at Poiters the King's brother fucked off with about a third of the army midway through the fight. Can you see any of these things happening at Storm's End?

[HexMachina]

1- Robert at the Trident WAS pure steel.

He was a broken-man after Lyanna's death but no opponent breaked him

In Noye there you have GRRM straight point of view,, simple as that

2- True leader?

When Renly proven it?

He had that nice guy charisma that work well on peace time and will make him a loved king

But war times is all different game

Stannis was a Baratheon himself, the successor one by right, and showed a will, sacrifice and he don't mind suffer the same adversity of his men, history proven that soldiers respect a lot that kind of leader

Julius Caesar was like Renly + Stannis combined... he won the plebs with his "Renly" kind of charisma, but is with his badass Stannis side that won legionary's respect

I can see RB soldiers come back to the camp after a bloody horrible stall day trying to break SB defenses only to find Renly coming out of his silk tend like "hi guyz, how's going war? I'm already king? Did you notice my new haircut? I'm awesome, i'm not? When you was out i invented a new joke, did you want hear it?"

Plus plot

I can easy see GRRM make clear to RB soldiers how theyr "leader" is'nt so inclined to sweat and bleed at theyr side, when Stannis will fight to the death side-by-side with the most lowborn of his men

Stannis is'nt easy to like, he will promise sufference. But you know he will suffer with you

Renly promise happyness & rainbows, but when sufference times come, he will pat pat your shoulder and say "Good luck bro" while planning the terms of his own safe surrender. Wich with Stannis know don't exist (treason = death), so he will just run and bitch away, probably with Loras

Soldiers can smell that kind of shit

Again, peace time charisma =/= war time charisma

Let's be clear, there are probably many generals more charismatic than Stannis even during a military campaign, but Renly? Lol, no

This post is terrible, sorry. You start off saying Donal Noye is some kind of brilliant authority on the matter then immediately undermine what you just said by pointing out his assessment of Robert is flawed and based on long outdated knowledge.

You seem to have an image of Renly i your mind that is even more of a gay stereotype than the show used. From.the books, we know Renly was a knight, competed in tourneys and had some fine military commanders in his company. He was not the useless incompetent imbecile you are painting him as.

You really think Renly's men, who have the clear advantage, would go over ti Stannis because...why exactly? Its all about survival for.them, they will pick the winning side, which was most likely Renly to their eyes. Stannis had a far outnumbered force, no advantage in terms of land, and could also be attacked from the Storm's End garrison. How exactly was he supposed to win? Remember, these are the Storm Lords who already refused to join him when he asked them to. They aren't suddenly going to change their minds in the middle of a battle they are almost certain to win

[fuem]

No.

[DamoDega]

1- I can't. And I assume no one else can either, since not even the show turned Renly into that much of a gay stereotype as he apparently is in your imagination.

2- Great if you are into heroically bleeding to death while proclaiming how awesome it is to die for glory and righteousness. But unless you are one of those nutters, you will be very glad to be on the side of the guy who currently holds almost all advantages, even if he is not personally in the vanguard and shouting.

This is not to say that personal admiration for a leader can't be an important factor for an army. But the average expendable footsoldier is not going to be disappointed that Renly doesn't stand side by side with them in the mud, because no one expects it (and it would be idiotic). Even military leaders with a more hands-on approach, like Stannis and Robb, have a terrain-appropriate mount and a personal guard retinue, and are not the first to jump into the shield wall either. And the higher-ups, who may or may not wish Renly to take a more active role, also know that there is more at stake, and are not going to recklessly switch sides just because their King isn't personally clawing at the enemy's front. This is an army of thousands, not a small fantasy warband. Cameraderie between leader and troops are never going to be that much of an important factor.

1- Of course i've exagerated :D

It have nothing to do with him being gay, in the same army you have Loras who's gay too and he's a different kind of character.

Suppose for whatever reason he's going to lose... do you see Renly, surrend knowing Stannis will sentence him to death? Of course not, he will run away with Loras and all the loyal men he still have

2- To make it clear of course, if will be about RB's army straight quick crush SB one, cameraderie will do nothing, and as we seen on that point that was the situation

But was a situation influenced by Melisandre existence too

I was considering a different scenario, where without Melisandre you have a not-fanatic Stannis that have a better plan that "the red woman said it's all ok cuz Lord of the Light is fan of me"

I'm thinking a situation where Stannis find a way to capitalize at best his strenghts and try to put up a strategy to face the superior army.

A war wich still will se RB heavy favourite (due numbers but also due atrition wars favour wo got resources) but things get ugly on both sides, and times get waaay longer than expected

Suppose one or two battles goes to SB, thanks to both Stannis right decision and Renly's fault (i know, plot stuff)

There moral of troops become a factor

Look i'm not debating that RB army was not claerly superior and at advantage, i'm debating that if situation reach some point (due plot) is not crazy believe that soldiers of both sides will prefer a leader like Stannis

Again, is all about the situation, in peace time i will have no doubt people prefer Renly... he's described as very good at get friends, while Stannis is drastic, boring and austere

Stannis is more or less like ancient Rome's Cato: many peoples don't like him, and the one who respect him still don't like him :D

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I can see RB soldiers come back to the camp after a bloody horrible stall day trying to break SB defenses only to find Renly coming out of his silk tend like "hi guyz, how's going war? I'm already king? Did you notice my new haircut? I'm awesome, i'm not? When you was out i invented a new joke, did you want hear it?"

Plus plot

I can easy see GRRM make clear to RB soldiers how theyr "leader" is'nt so inclined to sweat and bleed at theyr side, when Stannis will fight to the death side-by-side with the most lowborn of his men

And I can imagine miniature kangaroos born with bells on the tip of their tails, but with all honesty, that's not based on any material written by George R. R. Martin. Same goes with your picture, I fear.

[Consigliere]

Well without the shadow babies, Renly would almost certainly have won. If Stannis survived the battle I doubt Renly would have had him executed though.

[DamoDega]

You seem to have an image of Renly i your mind that is even more of a gay stereotype than the show used. From.the books, we know Renly was a knight, competed in tourneys and had some fine military commanders in his company. He was not the useless incompetent imbecile you are painting him as.

And he did even good at a tournament, getting defeated by the Hound wich can never a shame. I know

He was seen as a young Robert, wich itself mean he was a big, athletic strong dude. Yes

He even got a cool looking green armor. Agree

And agree on his commanders

But say that he was a good militar leader for war period (not the preparation of it) is a stretch

He's never been seen as a strong leader under that point of view