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Is Sansa going to have control of the Vale army by sexual manipulation?


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#1 Arya Stark Rules

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:10 AM

It LF is the Lord Protector of the Vale and Sansa wants to have control over the Vale army I think she may have to get a bit sexual in order to kill LF and become Lady of the Vale.

Thoughts?



#2 It's Not That Littlefinger

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:29 AM

I really don't want her to become sexual, but it looks like she will be using that to her advantage. To do what, I do not know, but she will do something. I'm not opposed to the sex in the books in general, but I would much prefer Sansa stay away from that kind of manipulation. Maybe she will try and realize that it isn't a good thing because Cersei used it for her gains and Sansa doesn't want to be like her. I don't know. Just a thought.



#3 Game Of Thrones

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:36 AM

I hope not.

#4 Woman of War

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:38 AM

I really don't want her to become sexual, but it looks like she will be using that to her advantage. To do what, I do not know, but she will do something. I'm not opposed to the sex in the books in general, but I would much prefer Sansa stay away from that kind of manipulation. Maybe she will try and realize that it isn't a good thing because Cersei used it for her gains and Sansa doesn't want to be like her. I don't know. Just a thought.


And why not?
Can it be less immoral to kill your enemies with arms and to bribe them with money than trapping and bribing them with sex? Or founding alliances in bed? Honorable slaughtering against evil seduction?
A different kind of weapon, that's all. People want Sansa "empowered", so why not allow her the weapons of her choice?
That idea of female purity and modesty transfers a rather misogynistic idea of female sexuality, where the biggest moral transgression a woman can commit is being actively sexual, is seeing her erotic body as her strength, giving her power. It's the fight of the male hierarchy against female control of reproduction and sex.

The same society that expects women to enter a marriage as virgins sells them like chattel to the highest bidder in arranged marriages.

#5 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:48 AM

I think she's going to become more aware of her own sexuality, but I dunno if she's actually going to use it. I definitely don't see her "seducing" Baelish, but simply realising that he could make him do or say things just by asking and evoking some memories of her own mother. What I do wonder is if her own sexual awakening about some other guy might have a negative effect on LF towards her.



#6 Arya Stark Rules

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:22 AM

And why not?
Can it be less immoral to kill your enemies with arms and to bribe them with money than trapping and bribing them with sex? Or founding alliances in bed? Honorable slaughtering against evil seduction?
A different kind of weapon, that's all. People want Sansa "empowered", so why not allow her the weapons of her choice?
That idea of female purity and modesty transfers a rather misogynistic idea of female sexuality, where the biggest moral transgression a woman can commit is being actively sexual, is seeing her erotic body as her strength, giving her power. It's the fight of the male hierarchy against female control of reproduction and sex.

The same society that expects women to enter a marriage as virgins sells them like chattel to the highest bidder in arranged marriages.

Great post  :bowdown:

I agree there is nothing wrong with Sansa being sexual to achieve her ends, it's just another weapon. I am shocked people see it as a bad thing.



#7 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:25 AM

Unlikely and probably unnecessary. Robert Arryn is the Lord of the Vale, and he treats her as replacement mother/big sister. That's influence enough.



#8 Mad Madam Mim

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 04:27 AM

My inner feminist hope Sansa does not rely solely on her sexuality to achieve her goals. She has many other skills at her disposal, not just her physical attributes. I think GRRM has given us enough indication that Sansa is learning how to play the game in a number of ways, if she gains the Vale simply due to her beauty then she has learnt nothing the whole series. 



#9 CrannogXninja

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 04:35 AM

I'm one of the few that don't believe he's fake either and interpreted it the way you have (Merely as beware Vary's Dragon). But I've always wondered why on Earth didn't Varys ally himself with the Dorne. He knows how deeply they loved Elia, knowing her SON is alive would change everything.


My inner feminist hope Sansa does not rely solely on her sexuality to achieve her goals. She has many other skills at her disposal, not just her physical attributes. I think GRRM has given us enough indication that Sansa is learning how to play the game in a number of ways, if she gains the Vale simply due to her beauty then she has learnt nothing the whole series. 



What skills does Sansa that would be of use in her current situation? That's all she has. Unless an army comes of lemon cake men (the gingerbread man's cousin), she has no skill sets at all other than being a proper lady.

#10 Stannisaurus2

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 06:31 AM

Is Sansa going to have control of the Vale army by sexual manipulation?

 

Man, this title looks weird when you lack sleep because you tend to think literally of things that should have been thought as abstracts


Edited by Stannisaurus2, 02 August 2014 - 06:34 AM.


#11 Mladen

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 06:42 AM

Yes, "the pseudo-incestuous sexual intercourse/rape" is what Sansa wants and needs... What a wonderful feminist notion...

 

The thing here is that people constantly use fallacies about this. Let we be perfectly clear about this. Sansa being sexual being =/= Sansa lusting for LF. And that is what some people needs to understand... Plus, the fact that prostitution =/= female empowerment. Basically, no one is denying that Sansa is a sexual being. It is rather clear that the motif has been part of her storyarc since very beginning. But, equalizing it would be rather wrong. I am not saying it is not possibility (although Sansa having willing sex with the man she is physically repulsed by is a theory that needs some proper thinking process), as in everything is possible, but talking about that as Sansa turning into a sexual being is rather too simplistic. She has been one ever since the Blackwater bay night, where, arguably, she created romantic scenario around very sexual thought. So, the argument that she is some "Ice Queen" who can solely be introduced with sex through "pseudo-incestuous rape" (if she doesn't want the sex with Baelish, that is the only option left) is simply wrong in both its premise (Sansa not being sexual being) and conclusion (that her transformation can be made solely by becoming "femme fatale").

 

Now, regarding empowerment and prostitution... Books can be written about idea of equalizing these two (let we just for second enjoy the "Sansa should have widened her legs to Tyrion" idea that also speaks about "empowerment") and it is more than clear, that in the universe of ASOIAF, power is rarely obtained efficiently by sex. The greatest female arcs in ASOIAF simply puts sex on the bottom as the way of obtaining permanent power. From Arianne whose "sex games" with Arys, or Cersei's using sex with Lancel, the author undoubtedly sent a message about how efficient those methods are. Women like Daenerys and Asha never even had to do that, with addition that Dany's story has started as being sold like live stock and we all know where it ended. So, entire idea about empowerment = prostitution needs to find its place in some other books, since these showed us where author stands with regard to that idea. 

 

What skills does Sansa that would be of use in her current situation? That's all she has. Unless an army comes of lemon cake men (the gingerbread man's cousin), she has no skill sets at all other than being a proper lady.

 

Beside vagina, she has a head with brain and all mental functions, two legs, two arms, chests and abdomen... So, vagina is not all she has...



#12 JoeyBanana

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 06:49 AM

Nah.

 

She needs to manipulate everyone else and not Baelish.

 

The Vale lords, Harry, Mya, Robin, Brune, etc.

 

He's powerless once isolated and alone.



#13 lakin1013

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 08:45 AM

I think she's going to become more aware of her own sexuality, but I dunno if she's actually going to use it. I definitely don't see her "seducing" Baelish, but simply realising that he could make him do or say things just by asking and evoking some memories of her own mother. What I do wonder is if her own sexual awakening about some other guy might have a negative effect on LF towards her.

 

I agree with this post.  Currently Sansa is a 14-ish year old virgin and the only 'sex as weapon' instruction she had was from Cirsei, IIRC (that we know of).  What is potential dynamite is the last line of JonCon's post.  If LF were to discover Sansa has become intimately involved with someone else, I imagine his thinking would be immediate and two-fold:"How do I work this to my advantage?"  and "I am going to kill him, then her."   I wonder if GRRM is going in this direction!  



#14 yolkboy

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 08:51 AM

Worth noting in this discussion that... (WoW)

 

Spoiler

Edited by yolkboy, 02 August 2014 - 08:55 AM.


#15 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 08:57 AM

Worth noting in this discussion that... (WoW)

 

Spoiler

 

 

Considering the clear parallels in Arya's and Sansa's arcs, as presented here, this development is definitely not one that should be ignored. 

 

Though it's also worth noting that using sexuality is subtly different than using sex.



#16 SinLann

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 09:01 AM

I would prefer Sansa to be what she is & not turn into another Cersei or Arianne or Marg. Using sex as a weapon may work immediately but the results dont last forever as we have seen with Cersei. There are enough women using sex appeal/ actual sex as a weapon in the books. I hope Sansa doesnt become one of them. She is not the best but at least she is unique.



#17 yolkboy

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 09:04 AM

I would prefer Sansa to be what she is & not turn into another Cersei or Arianne or Marg. Using sex as a weapon may work immediately but the results dont last forever as we have seen with Cersei. There are enough women using sex appeal/ actual sex as a weapon in the books. I hope Sansa doesnt become one of them. She is not the best but at least she is unique.

 

Well - depending on people's interpretation of that Ghost of High Heart's vision - if it's Sansa at Winterfell she's stated as still being a maid.


Edited by yolkboy, 02 August 2014 - 09:04 AM.


#18 WSmith84

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 09:08 AM

I think that Sansa may use her sexuality, much like Queen Elizabeth. But I don't think she'll use sex to get what she wants, that's how Cersei plays and we've seen how ineffective that was. Her sexuality will just be one weapon in her arsenal, alongside her charm and skills at court - Tyrion notes how good she is at it and, whether people want to admit it or not, being skilled at court is an important skill. Look at Renly, he managed to do pretty well with his charisma.

 

As for Sansa sleeping with LF, god I hope not. That would just be creepy and wrong. And probably rape.



#19 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 09:15 AM

I think that Sansa may use her sexuality, much like Queen Elizabeth. But I don't think she'll use sex to get what she wants, that's how Cersei plays and we've seen how ineffective that was. Her sexuality will just be one weapon in her arsenal, alongside her charm and skills at court - Tyrion notes how good she is at it and, whether people want to admit it or not, being skilled at court is an important skill. Look at Renly, he managed to do pretty well with his charisma.

 

As for Sansa sleeping with LF, god I hope not. That would just be creepy and wrong. And probably rape.

 

Great historical reference.

 

No one would argue that Elizabeth was a vagina with a crown, but she undoubtedly used her sexuality as an accessory to her intelligence, proving her shrewdness as a politician in a  world that had been dominated by men until her reign.

 

And as yolkboy noted, depending upon your interpretation of the GoHH's vision, Sansa remains a maid for some time to come ;)



#20 Mladen

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 09:19 AM

I would prefer Sansa to be what she is & not turn into another Cersei or Arianne or Marg. Using sex as a weapon may work immediately but the results dont last forever as we have seen with Cersei. There are enough women using sex appeal/ actual sex as a weapon in the books. I hope Sansa doesnt become one of them. She is not the best but at least she is unique.

 

Actually, as I have said, the books bear clear message that sex as a weapon is actually quite flawed. Cersei using sex led her to Walk of Shame, Arianne's led to disaster. Point is that true women of power like Dany, Asha, QoT actually didn't use sex as weapon... 

 

 

 

Great historical reference.

 

No one would argue that Elizabeth was a vagina with a crown, but she undoubtedly used her sexuality as an accessory to her intelligence, proving her shrewdness as a politician in a  world that had been dominated by men until her reign.

 

And as yolkboy noted, depending upon your interpretation of the GoHH's vision, Sansa remains a maid for some time to come ;)

 

I think that Martin intentionally goes with Elizabeth I's parallels. We constantly speak about Virgin Queen and Maiden motif is Sansa's story, but look at Thomas Seymour/Baelish parallels.

 

And that is the whole point... No doubt that Sansa is a sexual being, that she possesses sexuality and certainly can use it. But to stipulate her on prostitution arc is a huge mistake, IMO.