Is Sansa going to have control of the Vale army by sexual manipulation?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Beside vagina, she has a head with brain and all mental functions, two legs, two arms, chests and abdomen... So, vagina is not all she has...

People conveniently forget that she's not a walking vagina...

On-topic: Pretty much what Mladen said, and just to add my own points: Sexuality =/ Sex, and Sansa, as a character, doesn't seem to walk towards the female fatale trope; In fact, I'd say Sansa has a brain, which she seems to be using just fine, and wouldn't have to sex up every Knight of the Vale in order to make them bid her command. Sansa can just as well politically isolate LF and exercise control over Robert Arryn. It doesn't have to be about sex.

I think that Sansa may use her sexuality, much like Queen Elizabeth. But I don't think she'll use sex to get what she wants, that's how Cersei plays and we've seen how ineffective that was. Her sexuality will just be one weapon in her arsenal, alongside her charm and skills at court - Tyrion notes how good she is at it and, whether people want to admit it or not, being skilled at court is an important skill. Look at Renly, he managed to do pretty well with his charisma.

As for Sansa sleeping with LF, god I hope not. That would just be creepy and wrong. And probably rape.

Agreed. It's dis servicing to the character to believe she needs to fuck her way to the top. Sansa can certainly use her sexuality as a weapon - Just not in the way some people think (i.e Sleeping with LF).

[WSmith84]

Personally, I hope that if Sansa does have sex it is with someone she fully wants to have sex with. It doesn't have to be mind-blowing, pornstar-style sex (a la Asha or Dany), it can be disappointing or sweet or gentle or whatever. As long as Sansa's happy with it, I'll be happy for her. Sansa really grew on me as a character and I hope nothing terrible happens to her.

[Mad Madam Mim]

What skills does Sansa that would be of use in her current situation? That's all she has. Unless an army comes of lemon cake men (the gingerbread man's cousin), she has no skill sets at all other than being a proper lady.

To say she has no skills is an underestimation of her character. Her arc so far has been about her transformation from a naïve girl into a potential player in the game. Her story may be a subtle journey, but no less important than the more dramatic arcs of other characters. From what I have read of the Pawn to Player threads so far, her skills are extensively documented there.

Cersei acts as a cautionary tale to Sansa and Sansa sees for herself how not to do it. Cersei uses what is “between her legs” as a weapon and Sansa seems to instantly reject this. Sansa will grow into her sexuality, but that does not mean she will resort to sex to get what she wants and Cersei has shown how spectacularly wrong using sex as a weapon can go.

[chrisdaw]

Why does she want an army?

[Rippounet]

I think that Sansa may use her sexuality, much like Queen Elizabeth. But I don't think she'll use sex to get what she wants, that's how Cersei plays and we've seen how ineffective that was. Her sexuality will just be one weapon in her arsenal, alongside her charm and skills at court - Tyrion notes how good she is at it and, whether people want to admit it or not, being skilled at court is an important skill.

:agree:

Using sexuality and using sex are different things.

All in all, the problem with this whole thread is "where is the line drawn?". Obviously a woman can use sexuality as a weapon... But might also want to go further if she feels like it...

One could say that Dany starts by using Daario to get his sellswords (sexuality), but progressively becomes actually attracted to him and ends up using him for her personal (sexual) needs.

We don't yet know how Sansa will act. She will obviously start by using sexuality... But might very well become actually atracted to someone.

[KingMaekarWasHere]

And why not?

Can it be less immoral to kill your enemies with arms and to bribe them with money than trapping and bribing them with sex? Or founding alliances in bed? Honorable slaughtering against evil seduction?

A different kind of weapon, that's all. People want Sansa "empowered", so why not allow her the weapons of her choice?

That idea of female purity and modesty transfers a rather misogynistic idea of female sexuality, where the biggest moral transgression a woman can commit is being actively sexual, is seeing her erotic body as her strength, giving her power. It's the fight of the male hierarchy against female control of reproduction and sex.

The same society that expects women to enter a marriage as virgins sells them like chattel to the highest bidder in arranged marriages.

Too true too true. Besides if you read Cleopatra's bio, you find that she was actually more moral than likely Julius or Augustus Caesar but that is still up for debate I guess. The point is sex was only part of Cleopatra's life, it was not her whole being.

[OldGimletEye]

Personally, I hope that if Sansa does have sex it is with someone she fully wants to have sex with. It doesn't have to be mind-blowing, pornstar-style sex (a la Asha or Dany), it can be disappointing or sweet or gentle or whatever. As long as Sansa's happy with it, I'll be happy for her. Sansa really grew on me as a character and I hope nothing terrible happens to her.

This

Why does she want an army?

Now what young teenage girl wouldn't want an army?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Actually, as I have said, the books bear clear message that sex as a weapon is actually quite flawed. Cersei using sex led her to Walk of Shame, Arianne's led to disaster. Point is that true women of power like Dany, Asha, QoT actually didn't use sex as weapon...

I think that Martin intentionally goes with Elizabeth I's parallels. We constantly speak about Virgin Queen and Maiden motif is Sansa's story, but look at Thomas Seymour/Baelish parallels.

And that is the whole point... No doubt that Sansa is a sexual being, that she possesses sexuality and certainly can use it. But to stipulate her on prostitution arc is a huge mistake, IMO.

Right. I think the key is understanding the difference between sex and sexuality. The former has, as you noted, unintended and often negative consequences and can thus be equated with lack of control. The latter, if we follow the Virgin Queen parallel, is far more successful and generally equates with taking control of a situation. In fact, the Thomas Seymour incident in Elizabeth's young life was her first display of the shrewd logic and capable wit that would characterize her future reign. I strongly suspect Sansa will be able to deploy her skills to handle her involvement with Littlefinger in a similar manner.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Maybe. I do expect her to take advantage of the fact that Littlefinger is sexually and otherwise attracted to her, but not all of that manipulation has to be sex.

[chrisdaw]

Cersei very effectively used sex to get what she wanted, as did Arianne, it's just what they wanted was foolish.

Sansa hasn't shown the will to take territory, even the North, through strength of arms. And it's not particularly a fitting method for a master player. Besides, who is she going to seduce? She doesn't need to seduce SR with anything more than a clumsy kiss and a story to manipulate him, and taking the Vale's army North is LF's plan all ready.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Not sex but by marriage not to sweet Robin but to Harry Hardyng.

[Mad Madam Mim]

Cersei very effectively used sex to get what she wanted, as did Arianne, it's just what they wanted was foolish.

Sansa hasn't shown the will to take territory, even the North, through strength of arms. And it's not particularly a fitting method for a master player. Besides, who is she going to seduce? She doesn't need to seduce SR with anything more than a clumsy kiss and a story to manipulate him, and taking the Vale's army North is LF's plan all ready.

Using sex to get what she wanted backfired spectacularly when she was arrested, forced to endure the walk of shame and contend with a trial by battle.

[Wmarshal]

I don't see why, taking control of a good half the kingdom is good enough reason for anyone.

[Luthien Targaryen]

I think Sansa can topple Littlefinger without having to use her, so far non-exsistant feminine whiles to do so. She's nice, people like her and warn to her on a platonic level, and the Vale Lords are not overly fond of Littlefinger. If dear, sweet little Sansa were to reveal her self as Poor Lost Sansa Stark, the Ned's little girl, and maybe mentioned that Littlefinger wants to do in poor orphaned Sweetrobin, the true heir to the Vale, then i'm willing to bet that the Vale lords, escpecially the likes of Yohn Royce who seems quite powerful and thinks fondly of the Starks, would snap her up and rally behind her and Sweetrobin. Throw in that Littlefinger also murdered Jon Arryn and Lady Lysa as well and she's laughing. Sansa has the dirt on Littlefinger, all she has to do is pick the right moment and the right person to tell. Come on , Sansa, I've got faith in you....Mind you, i remember thinking that about her Dad...

[RavenKing23]

I don't know, seems a bit out of character to me. When has she ever or hinted to using her sexuality or looks to get people to help her? Sounds too vain and shallow for her to have any real power. Cersei and Arianne had the same idea but they had no real loyalty or power as they were so easily brought down.

Its just like men who think they can buy alligence (LF) its a false power and they fall all the same

[FaceGardener]

If we assume (somewhat simple-mindedly) that sex is a weapon women are generally best with, and violence is a weapon men are generally best with, we can see plenty of examples throughout the books of folks using those weapons with great folly. Characters like Asha and Dany do use sexuality to their advantage--but sparingly. In the same way that the threat of violence is more powerful than violence, the possibility of sex is more powerful than sex.

[It's Not That Littlefinger]

Woman of War, on 02 Aug 2014 - 12:38 AM, said:

And why not?

Can it be less immoral to kill your enemies with arms and to bribe them with money than trapping and bribing them with sex? Or founding alliances in bed? Honorable slaughtering against evil seduction?

A different kind of weapon, that's all. People want Sansa "empowered", so why not allow her the weapons of her choice?

That idea of female purity and modesty transfers a rather misogynistic idea of female sexuality, where the biggest moral transgression a woman can commit is being actively sexual, is seeing her erotic body as her strength, giving her power. It's the fight of the male hierarchy against female control of reproduction and sex.

The same society that expects women to enter a marriage as virgins sells them like chattel to the highest bidder in arranged marriages.

She is 13... give her a couple of years

[Mladen]

Right. I think the key is understanding the difference between sex and sexuality. The former has, as you noted, unintended and often negative consequences and can thus be equated with lack of control. The latter, if we follow the Virgin Queen parallel, is far more successful and generally equates with taking control of a situation. In fact, the Thomas Seymour incident in Elizabeth's young life was her first display of the shrewd logic and capable wit that would characterize her future reign. I strongly suspect Sansa will be able to deploy her skills to handle her involvement with Littlefinger in a similar manner.

I think that we also need to separate public persona from private life. Elizabeth I's public face was the Virgin Queen, but from some reports, privately, she wasn't a virgin at all (although my knowledge on the subject isn't that vast). Therefore we might want to separate these things wrt Sansa. Basically, the "Maiden Queen/Lady/Princess" can become her political platform, a virgin woman married to a man whom she doesn't want, ruling in her own name, while at the same time having sexual relationships, or in fact relationships in general with men of her choosing...

BTW, nice job on your Radio. It was really nice hearing from all three you on my favorite ASOIAF subject :)

Cersei very effectively used sex to get what she wanted, as did Arianne, it's just what they wanted was foolish.

If we can say that Cersei got what she want, or that she was efficient, just like Arianne, then I suppose the failure got some new meaning... :)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Cersei very effectively used sex to get what she wanted, as did Arianne, it's just what they wanted was foolish.

Here I don't agree.

Cersei uses sex to get what she wants because she doesn't know any other way. despite being a Queen and having power, have ways to gain allies with words and being the daughter of a (let's admit it) great politician as Tywin was. In her case, it's a weakness.

Arianne is different. She is actually free to have sex with whoever she wants and she doesn't get anything from it except fun times. She didn't sex Arys for his help, that came later in their relationship.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

I have a reply to this, but it involves a WoW spoiler. How does one do the spoiler text?