Tywin and the Vale......

[Lee-Sensei]

Exactly. There are multiple baratheon options and the baratheons are also closely linked to the vale. The reason we only here about the stark supporters in the vale is because were getting it from sansas pov and sansa only cares about the ones that would help her faction.

[Galaxian]

Joffrey was a Baratheon in name and widely believed to be Robert's trueborn heir, Stannis' letter looks like a self serving lie.

It still caused doubts that were encouraged by Jon Arryn strange death and Lysa flight from KL. Plus as soon as Robert died, the Lannister completely took over which helps dissociate Robert from the crown as it stands now. Word of all the stuff Joffrey was doing was bound to reach the Vale which could only harm his standing in that region, as Tyrion put it "not Robert the Second but Aerys the Third".

[Boarsbane]

It still caused doubts that were encouraged by Jon Arryn strange death and Lysa flight from KL. Plus as soon as Robert died, the Lannister completely took over which helps dissociate Robert from the crown as it stands now. Word of all the stuff Joffrey was doing was bound to reach the Vale which could only harm his standing in that region, as Tyrion put it "not Robert the Second but Aerys the Third".

Lysa's actions contradict her accusations, Tywin invades her homelands and she does nothing, plus Tyrion was proven innocent of trying to kill Jon Arryn so she looks like a dumb ass as well as a liar. That isn't strange considering Joffrey is supposedly half Lannister and his own supposed Baratheon kin are rising up to overthrow him. Why wouldn't the Lannisters take charge in a situation where the other half of his family is coming to kill him? And I don't see why word of Joffrey would reach the Vale, his true colors don't really start to show until he becomes king and he usually has Tyrion or Tywin to keep in check.

[JoeyBanana]

Joffrey was a Baratheon in name and widely believed to be Robert's trueborn heir, Stannis' letter looks like a self serving lie.

You're right.

Still doesn't change the fact that the Vale lords wouldn't be fighting their beloved Baratheons but the Lannisters. How many Baratheon bannermen actually fought for Joffrey before Renly died and Stannis lost? That's what counts, not that Joffrey was believed to be Robert's son. They didn't know him at all but they knew the stormlords and knights who they fought and rebelled with. Some would definitely (not Lyn Corbray though) hesitate to march against old brothers in arms, but probably not against the opportunistic Westerland lords.

[Boarsbane]

You're right.

Still doesn't change the fact that the Vale lords wouldn't be fighting their beloved Baratheons but the Lannisters. How many Baratheon bannermen actually fought for Joffrey before Renly died and Stannis lost? That's what counts, not that Joffrey was believed to be Robert's son. They didn't know him at all but they knew the stormlords and knights who they fought and rebelled with. Some would definitely (not Lyn Corbray though) hesitate to march against old brothers in arms, but probably not against the "cowardly" Westerland lords.

Why would they care about the Stormlands bannermen? It is Robert Baratheon who grew up in the Vale not his bannermen. Joffrey is(to some of them) Robert's son, it doesn't matter which region is backing him.

[Lee-Sensei]

Robb rose up against the baratheons by declaring himself king in a move similar to balon. The vale lords have connections to the baratheons too. They would at some point be fighting the baratheons if they joined robb. Not only joffrey, but bobs brothers too.

[Lee-Sensei]

Robb rose up against the baratheons by declaring himself king in a move similar to balon. The vale lords have connections to the baratheons too. They would at sone point be fighting the bararhepns if they joined robb. Not only joffrey, but bobs brothers too.

[Galaxian]

Lysa's actions contradict her accusations, Tywin invades her homelands and she does nothing, plus Tyrion was proven innocent of trying to kill Jon Arryn so she looks like a dumb ass as well as a liar. That isn't strange considering Joffrey is supposedly half Lannister and his own supposed Baratheon kin are rising up to overthrow him. Why wouldn't the Lannisters take charge in a situation where the other half of his family is coming to kill him? And I don't see why word of Joffrey would reach the Vale, his true colors don't really start to show until he becomes king and he usually has Tyrion or Tywin to keep in check.

Why would they care about the Stormlands bannermen? It is Robert Baratheon who grew up in the Vale not his bannermen. Joffrey is(to some of them) Robert's son, it doesn't matter which region is backing him.

They will be fighting the Lannisters. You are saying that the Vale holds no allegiance to House Baratheon, because their bond is specifically with Rober, but you are also saying that they won't fight the Lannisters because Robert marrried one of them. Makes no sense.

Also, Stannis was not the only one that said Joffrey was not Robert's trueborn son. Ned said it as well and, as it has been stated repeatably in this thread, Ned grew up in the Eyrie, so the Lords of the Vale know what kind of man he is and his word probably holds a lot of weight in the Vale, even more than Robert's.

But let's say that some lords still doubt Ned and believe Joffrey to be the rightful heir, when they hear that the boy is becoming like Aerys, the king them and his father fought to dethrone, their love for Robert might not extend to his son and his regime.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

The enemy wasn't Baratheon, it was Lannister, though.

Stannis and Renly were also opposing Joffrey's rule. The Vale had without a doubt plenty of lords preferring to stay neutral or more loyal to the Baratheons, but i don't think there were many real Lannister supporters, just those that Littlefinger bribed to be faithful to the crown.

But apart from the individual loyalties within the Vale, they did what Lysa commanded, first and foremost.

:agree:

Also, when determining who the Vale would side with based on mutual love for Ned and Bobby and thus their children, when one of those children murders the other's father, that might swing the tide. Probably plays out the other way if Robb had killed Bobby.

[Boarsbane]

They will be fighting the Lannisters. You are saying that the Vale holds no allegiance to House Baratheon, because their bond is specifically with Rober, but you are also saying that they won't fight the Lannisters because Robert marrried one of them. Makes no sense.

Also, Stannis was not the only one that said Joffrey was not Robert's trueborn son. Ned said it as well and, as it has been stated repeatably in this thread, Ned grew up in the Eyrie, so the Lords of the Vale know what kind of man he is and his word probably holds a lot of weight in the Vale, even more than Robert's.

But let's say that some lords still doubt Ned and believe Joffrey to be the rightful heir, when they hear that the boy is becoming like Aerys, the king them and his father fought to dethrone, their love for Robert might not extend to his son and his regime.

Where did I say any of that? I said they owe no allegiance to the Stormlands so why would which king they back play a role in it? I am saying SOME of them wouldn't fight the Lannisters since the Lannisters were fighting for Robert's supposed heir.

Ned recanted everything he said about Joffrey publically before Joffrey executed him, not that he even had much chance to go around telling people Joffrey was a bastard before hand.

Assuming they even hear about it, Joffrey killing Ned was stupid politically but he was justified based on what Ned just falsely confessed to.

[Lee-Sensei]

Again, robert has brothers and robb was rising up against them too. Stannis worked with jon for 15 years. Joffrey executes ned legitately. He admiitred committing treason.

[lyannaisalive]

Robb rose up against the baratheons by declaring himself king in a move similar to balon. The vale lords have connections to the baratheons too. They would at sone point be fighting the bararhepns if they joined robb. Not only joffrey, but bobs brothers too.

Except if Robb allied with Renly that would make them allies again.

[lyannaisalive]

Again, robert has brothers and robb was rising up against them too. Stannis worked with jon for 15 years. Joffrey executes ned legitately. He admiitred committing treason.

I doubt anyone in the Vale who knew Ned would believe he was a traitor, both Renly and Stannis knew it was murder.

[Boarsbane]

I doubt anyone in the Vale who knew Ned would believe he was a traitor, both Renly and Stannis knew it was murder.

Ned grew up in the Vale but that doesn't mean every Vale lord knew him personally and liked him.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Again, robert has brothers and robb was rising up against them too. Stannis worked with jon for 15 years. Joffrey executes ned legitately. He admiitred committing treason.

When is it ever said he was rising up against Renly or Stannis? They were specifically fighting Joff and the Lannisters. There is a key to King IN the North. This implies that he is to be recognized as king when in the north. It does not necessarily implied he is king anywhere else. It also means his kingship trumps other kings' claims while both parties are in the north. He makes no claim to the IT, nor does he ever imply he is seeking it.

Ned grew up in the Vale but that doesn't mean every Vale lord knew him personally and liked him.

It's implied. Plus, he is Jon's ward and by all accounts Jon loved and completely respected Ned. I'd assume that trickled down. Plus he is a son to one of the great houses. The other young lords of lesser houses would absolutely try to befriend him, regardless of whether they liked him or not.

[lyannaisalive]

When is it ever said he was rising up against Renly or Stannis? They were specifically fighting Joff and the Lannisters. There is a key to King IN the North. This implies that he is to be recognized as king when in the north. It does not necessarily implied he is king anywhere else. It also means his kingship trumps other kings' claims while both parties are in the north. He makes no claim to the IT, nor does he ever imply he is seeking it.

It's implied. Plus, he is Jon's ward and by all accounts Jon loved and completely respected Ned. I'd assume that trickled down. Plus he is a son to one of the great houses. The other young lords of lesser houses would absolutely try to befriend him, regardless of whether they liked him or not.

:agree:

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It's implied. Plus, he is Jon's ward and by all accounts Jon loved and completely respected Ned. I'd assume that trickled down. Plus he is a son to one of the great houses. The other young lords of lesser houses would absolutely try to befriend him, regardless of whether they liked him or not.

You realize all that is true for Robert and his son Joffrey, right?

We start the books with POV's who view the Lannisters as villains and we know pretty soon that Joffrey is a Lannister bastard.

The realm of Westeros has known Joffrey is whole life as a Baratheon and does not have the same POV as Tyrion, Robb, Arya and Jon on the boy king. Most people would seem him like Sansa first saw him.

[Wavey Sauce]

When is it ever said he was rising up against Renly or Stannis? They were specifically fighting Joff and the Lannisters. There is a key to King IN the North. This implies that he is to be recognized as king when in the north. It does not necessarily implied he is king anywhere else. It also means his kingship trumps other kings' claims while both parties are in the north. He makes no claim to the IT, nor does he ever imply he is seeking it.

It's implied. Plus, he is Jon's ward and by all accounts Jon loved and completely respected Ned. I'd assume that trickled down. Plus he is a son to one of the great houses. The other young lords of lesser houses would absolutely try to befriend him, regardless of whether they liked him or not.

At least some support would be given to Ned though. Maybe only 10k but I doubt that he would get 0 support if he were to press the claim needing help he would for sure get some amount of backup

[thelittledragonthatcould]

At least some support would be given to Ned though. Maybe only 10k but I doubt that he would get 0 support if he were to press the claim needing help he would for sure get some amount of backup

Some support would also go the Crown, GRRM says so himself, then the Vale has the option of factions fighting each other in a civil war making the Arryns weaker and giving the mountain clans freedom to strike.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

You realize all that is true for Robert and his son Joffrey, right?

We start the books with POV's who view the Lannisters as villains and we know pretty soon that Joffrey is a Lannister bastard.

The realm of Westeros has known Joffrey is whole life as a Baratheon and does not have the same POV as Tyrion, Robb, Arya and Jon on the boy king. Most people would seem him like Sansa first saw him.

As said before in numerous threads, if Ned and Bobby are equals in the eyes of the Vale Lords, and Robb and Joff are likewise seen as equals, royalty be damned, and one of those said children kills the others father, the Vale Lords will likely support the child of the slain Lord, if said murder was deemed unjust, which it was.