MENA part infinity

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Continue.

[Shryke]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-130-palestinians-killed-israels-hannibal-directive-rescue-operation-hadar-1459601

More than 130 Palestinians were killed during the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) execution of the controversial "Hannibal Directive" to rescue captured soldier Hadar Goldin, according to Palestinian sources.

The protocol orders the use of any force necessary to rescue a captured soldier, even if it means endangering the life of the soldier himself.

Following Goldin's suspected capture in a tunnel operation conducted in the Rafah area, the IDF launched a bombardment of the Rafah area to prevent his captors' escape.

A senior officer told Haaretz that "a great deal of fire was used in the area, and targets were attacked" following the incident. Palestinian reports claim that the Israeli strikes targeted vehicles, including ambulances, heading for Rafah hospital.

The IDF source confirmed that all firepower in the southern Gaza Strip was sent to the Rafah area to carry out the directive. Heavy fire came from tank shelling, artillery bombardments and air strikes to isolate the area where Goldin was suspected to be held, according to Haaretz.

The IDF has admitted that innocents were killed as a result of the huge use of force and now claims that Goldin was killed in the tunnel operation and not whisked away to Rafah

The Hannibal Doctrine sounds like the protocol is "No casualty left uneaten".

[TrueMetis]

Samalander, your list of rockets Hamas has available doesn't really go against my point. The distances those things can reach can't even compete with the V2 and judging from the amount of damage and casualties they caused are even worse when it comes accuracy. I find it hard to believe to believe something worse than ww2 missile technology is "the most sophisticated missile technology that exists in the world" and I stand by my statement that a teenager could build better.

On another note I made a mistake when talking about the V2 in the last threat. I mentioned Germany "launching V2's form thousands of kilometres away" The operational range of the V2 is 320km. My mistake.

[aceluby]

No, the Israel Defense mechanism in place is horribly effective. That's not the same thing.

Since 2001 (ie before the Iron Dome was available) 28 Israeli's have died from rocket attacks. That's the GW Bush "Mission Accomplished" of effectiveness.

[Shryke]

In scarier ME news, ISIS has seized more shit from the Kurds, including towns, and oil field and the dam that supplies Mosul with power:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iraq-conflict-isis-fighters-seize-mosul-dam-oilfield-and-3-towns-1.2726684

Islamic State fighters seized control of Iraq's biggest dam, an oilfield and three more towns on Sunday after inflicting their first major defeat on Kurdish forces since sweeping across much of northern Iraq in June.

Capture of the electricity-generating Mosul Dam, after an offensive of barely 24 hours, could give the Sunni militants the ability to flood major Iraqi cities or withhold water from farms, raising the stakes in their bid to topple Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's Shia-led government.

"The terrorist gangs of the Islamic State have taken control of Mosul Dam after the withdrawal of Kurdish forces without a fight," said Iraqi state television.

The swift withdrawal of Kurdish "peshmerga" troops was an apparent severe blow to one of the only forces in Iraq that until now had stood firm against the Sunni Islamist fighters who aim to redraw the borders of the Middle East.

Also, they are selling oil to make cash:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/isis-makes-million-day-selling-oil-analysts/story?id=24814359

ISIS Makes Up To $3 Million a Day Selling Oil, Say Analysts

[Shryke]

Since 2001 (ie before the Iron Dome was available) 28 Israeli's have died from rocket attacks. That's the GW Bush "Mission Accomplished" of effectiveness.

I think you mean 2011

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I'm surprised the Peshmurga aren't putting up a better fight.

[The Notorious]

I think you mean 2011

I bet way more people died from traffic accidents than from Hamas shitty rockets.

[Arakan]

I'm surprised the Peshmurga aren't putting up a better fight.

I think they are rather defensive in their approach. After all, Turkey is warily watching...

The Kurds know very well, that Turkey can only accept a limited Kurdish military strenght. Erdogan is nervous...

[Fez]

Scot,

That point is pretty clearly debatable, at a minimum.

If people want to debate the issue (in another thread, there's enough going on in this one), that's fine. But I responding to post assuming as fact that it was a war crime.

[Shryke]

I think they are rather defensive in their approach. After all, Turkey is warily watching...

The Kurds know very well, that Turkey can only accept a limited Kurdish military strenght. Erdogan is nervous...

Erdogan is waving his dick around about running the Gaza blockade with Turkish navy vessels in order to scare up votes.

[aceluby]

I think you mean 2011

No, 2001.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. As of July 2014^[update] the attacks have killed 28 people

Here's a list of everyone who has died in the attacks since 2001. There's more than what was counted for the wiki for some reason for a huge total of 40 people in 13 years and thousands of rockets.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/rocket-deaths-israel.html

In other words it would be harder for these attacks to be less effective than they currently are, with or without the Iron Dome.

[Axes]

Samalander, your list of rockets Hamas has available doesn't really go against my point. The distances those things can reach can't even compete with the V2 and judging from the amount of damage and casualties they caused are even worse when it comes accuracy. I find it hard to believe to believe something worse than ww2 missile technology is "the most sophisticated missile technology that exists in the world" and I stand by my statement that a teenager could build better.

On another note I made a mistake when talking about the V2 in the last threat. I mentioned Germany "launching V2's form thousands of kilometres away" The operational range of the V2 is 320km. My mistake.

When 80% of the country lives at a 150 KM radius from Gaza, you don't need long range missiles. Nor do you need high tech weaponry to shut down a country's population, society, economy. Few might die, but simply because they have to go into hiding 3 times a day.

No, 2001.

In other words it would be harder for these attacks to be less effective than they currently are, with or without the Iron Dome.

The Iron Dome is not the main system saving lives. That would be the early warning system, which gives you between 10-15 seconds to run for cover. Add to that the existance of safe rooms or bunkers in almost every residential building in Israel, plus billions invested in creating new one's + fortifying schools and hospitals, which lowers the Israeli casualty count, as long as thousands (and in the last round, millions) of people take cover and hide a few times a day. So, as long as the economy and society shut down, casualties are low, and Israel has no legitimacy in curbing Hamas. The height of irony.

Don't know how to quote from previous posts, but in response to Dicer:

But it's not that simple is it? Israel left 40% of the WB and 80% of Gaza and that should have made the Palestinians happy? Let's look at the facts more clearly as this article I linked to earlier lays it out. In case you missed it, here it is again.

Yep, it lays out why the 2005 evacuation could have been conducted better in a way that strengthens the moderates. I agree with parts of it, disagree with others. What I'm trying to say is that an improvement in the situation of the Palestinians emboldened Hamas to terror, not the other way around. In the 90's, Palestinian support for the peace process soared as a result of the above, yet Hamas had far larger motivation to attack Israel, and did, with hundreds dead. The point is that goodwill creates goodwill, from moderates, not Hamas. And with Hamas, there is no long term political solution. Strengthening the Palestinian moderates and negotiating with the PLO in good faith is what should be done, no doubt, but not with Hamas, and and political action with the moderates has to entail curbing the extremists, militarily if needed.

Quit playing the victim. No one is going to take that seriously this time around. In case you did not notice, Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization. Hamas has not managed to do anything to Israel so far. Hamas has the ability to shut down Israeli economy? What nonsense.

So what? That designation does not prevent naive liberals from thinking that they are a legitimate government. And yes, by shutting down Israel's main international airport, the economy tanked, international flights stopped, everything stopped. If this does not warrent a response, nothing does.

So Hamas is an army? Then why do the Israelis call them terrorists?

Army, military force, whatever. Tens of thousands of armed men, ATGM's and strategic missiles. Wanna call them a well armed terror organization? Call it what you will.

OK. Let's take the analogous situation of Northern Ireland. Britain suffered many, many terrorist attacks during the latter part of the twentieth century. Those organisations were often funded by groups in the US, oddly enough.

Yet, for all the nastiness and oppression involved, the UK never carpet bombed the Catholic parts of Belfast or Derry. They never blockaded the Republic. They never, for all their many faults, sunk to the level of what Israel is doing now.

Ofcourse not, for the simple reason that Britain directly controlled the center of operations of the IRA, Northern Ireland. Indirect support from the mainland did not warrant a full military response (unless covert), similar to how Israel controlles the west bank, so its army and police force can do the job. If you want a similar analogy, take a scenario where the republic of ireland declares the UK has no right to exist, and starts lobbing rockets on larger and larger swaths of British territory, causing millions of Britons to hide in bunkers. Not many are killed, but the whole nation is shut down. How long before the RN enacts a blockade on Ireland? Considering the harsh sanctions on Saddam's Iraq in the 90's, a country far removed from the UK or US, I would say less than a day.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lev,

And also, Datepalm can call herself anything she want; I am under no obligation to accept it as legitimate. I have no doubt she's very sincere.

Why is your definition of Zionism more true or accurate than Datepalm's assertion that she is a Zionist who opposes Israeli possession of the Occupied Territories?

[The Notorious]

Scot,

Well if she opposed the occupation and is opposed to the state terrorism committed in gaza, no matter how futile her efforts have been, she wouldn't be classified as a a zionist in my book. But if she want to call herself a zionist, then whatever float her boat .... But that does not impede me in any way from using the word to describe others who fall into that category. :-)

[Axes]

 

Lev,

Why is your definition of Zionism more true or accurate than Datepalm's assertion that she is a Zionist who opposes Israeli possession of the Occupied Territories?

 

There is a fairly universal definition of Zionism, the support for the existence of a Jewish state. As a result of the very general definition, you will have religious Zionists, pacifist Zionists, atheist Zionists, communist Zionists. Settler Zionists or Zionists that are opposed to the occupation of the west bank. Datepalm is a Zionist because she believes in the existence of a Jewish state. So why has the term been perverted over the years? One, because if turning Zionism into a universally negative word, then considering its original definition was support for Israel, it helps de-legitimize the whole state. That is why when pacifists like Dataplm call themselves Zionists, it makes certain people uncomfortable, because, suddenly, things cannot be painted in black and white colors, as extremists from both sides like to do.

For the record: I oppose the occupation of the west bank, I abhor the settlements, although I'm probably far less left wing in my political views than datepalm, because I believe that at the same time, we need to deal with Hamas, possibly even topple it, in order to help the moderates. I also consider myself a Zionist.

[The Notorious]

Lol, what's with all the chest-thumbing and proud declaration about being a zionist ....... Well you know what, it's the equivalent of the republicans' clinging to the claim of being the party of Lincoln. :-)

[Shryke]

  

There is a fairly universal definition of Zionism, the support for the existence of a Jewish state. As a result of the very general definition, you will have religious Zionists, pacifist Zionists, atheist Zionists, communist Zionists. Settler Zionists or Zionists that are opposed to the occupation of the west bank. Datepalm is a Zionist because she believes in the existence of a Jewish state. So why has the term been perverted over the years? One, because if turning Zionism into a universally negative word, then considering its original definition was support for Israel, it helps de-legitimize the whole state. That is why when pacifists like Dataplm call themselves Zionists, it makes certain people uncomfortable, because, suddenly, things cannot be painted in black and white colors, as extremists from both sides like to do.

For the record: I oppose the occupation of the west bank, I abhor the settlements, although I'm probably far less left wing in my political views than datepalm, because I believe that at the same time, we need to deal with Hamas, possibly even topple it, in order to help the moderates. I also consider myself a Zionist.

Or, you know, because alot of people who've done some really terrible things or had really terrible ideas have used the term as well.

It's so broad as to be useless in discussion.

[The Notorious]

Lol, i sense a "petition to the mods" soon from our resident zionists, like that whole "teabagger" petition.

Remember that one? Good times. :-)

[Axes]

Or, you know, because alot of people who've done some really terrible things or had really terrible ideas have used the term as well.

As did many people from almost every country under the pretext of patriotism. That does not make patriotism at its core bad. But narrowing the term to include only the extremists within the movement/ideology serves certain individuals wishes in undermining the whole ideology which is the base for Israel's existence.