Jon Snow traveling beyond the Wall again?

[JonisHenryTudor]

I was under the impression that the knives stuck in Jon when he was stabbed...I don't have the book with me to double check though. Not that it matters in the end, I am fairly certain that Jon will live. Even if he does "die," Mel should have the power to resurrect him a la Thoros of Myr.

I am also hoping that we get a POV at Hardhome. Dead things, dead things in the water, a ruined town, stranded Nights Watch; I think it would be awesome to see.

One knife stuck. One cut him, and the other hit him in the back (there is nothing to suggest this penetrated skin or even went deep, only that he was hit between the blades). That is it. I have said this a dozen times in the general forum, but people have gone the ER with over 30 stab wounds and have not died. Also, just because a knife sticks in you doesn't mean anything. It could stick in at 1 inch deep. Also Jon was stabbed with a knife, not a sword. He likely was wearing boiled leather, etc. So the gut punch penetrated, but we have no idea how far. Nor do we know how long the blade was.

And as it has been said by others, dead people do not feel anything.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I believe it will be somewhere in the SSMs.. It's not new.. He didn't say it very recently in relation to TWoW specifically.. I believe it was either just before or after the release of ADWD that I saw it , but he might have answered the same question even earlier.. He didn't promise Benjen in person but said that we would learn what happened to him...and I agree that there are many ways this could happen. Only time will tell.

However, I think that Benjen is one of 2 or 3 characters that are around behind the scenes ( just off-page ) in ADWD already. - Benjen being in Winterfell as the Hooded Man , IMO - keeping WF's magic defenses alive, and working hand-in-glove with the GNC ... until he can be replaced by a Stark best suited to take up rulership .

So I'm betting we'll get at least part of his story from the horse's mouth... Just my particular take.

I have an in-depth assessment that I've posted on another thread that I could give here if wanted .. but just one example, briefly..

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end

"When he pulled his hand away," .. that would only be if he was "pulling" out the knife ( e.g. in order to stab again ) .. he didn't stab and then let go..

"the dagger stayed where he had buried it".. You can bury a thing IN something or UNDER something.. Does the use of the word hint at UNDER .. as in under , say, layers of garments ? If so, how many and what sort ..boiled or studded leather ? any fur ? Ringmail? ... Unknown, as yet...

Does it imply buried IN ... as in buried in Jon's belly ? Bellies are soft.. so why would the dagger stay where it was when Bowen pulled his hand away ?

Jon " found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free " ... WRENCHED it FREE from his soft belly ?.. This is not just pulling it out. It sounds like it's stuck or caught on something - like a shirt of ringmail (Which could have prevented all but the "pointiest end" from going in, in the first place ).

This dagger is unlikely to be Valyrian steel and Bowen is not the most powerful of attackers.

To me, the ringmail GRRM planted back in AFfC is "Chekov's ringmail". It's never discussed or even mentioned between characters. We don't see Jon working on it , yet he must have been ,off-page , since it was in his quarters , on his workbench .. and it's in that same scene where he tells Sam (after the raven pecks him,drawing blood), that they all bleed for the watch and to wear thicker gloves. I think he's been taking his own advice for some time. ( That's why he seems so unconcerned by Mel's warnings )

The rest of the scene can be subjected to the same kind of scrutiny with similar results , and we know how GRRM loves to play with language that can imply more than one thing.

ETA: I think we should all be hoping like hell that Mel does nothing to "resurrect" Jon or interfere with him in any way. Whatever special abilities he may have would only be depleted in the process. Look at Beric ... look at Stannis. I think Jon needs to be himself , completely.

I would also add that I believe Ghost is there. Jon doesn't think about Ghost, he whispers his name. I also believe this is why the attack suddenly stopped. Someone let Ghost out.

[Mordwyn of House Harcarste]

I agree with JonisHenryTudor, being stabbed or even shot in the stomach is extremely painful but far from fatal and would take a long time to die even without medical attention, which Jon would receive right away, since he's lord commander. I also like this "He was wearing Mail" theory, I'd put stock in it being true.

[Mrmanakan]

Maybe that's where Mel went. To let ghost out. She was in the shield hall at the begining of Jon's speech for all we know she may have seen his speech and known that this was the begining of the attack. All I know is that if Jon is dead, & needs to be resurrected it's already too late for the nights watch. Jon is the king of the wildlings this side of the wall, anyway you look at it. They all follow him and have no loyalty to anyone else. There won't be a crow left except maybe leather and one or too that tormund had somewhat trusted, but even then, the one guy that saved their people murdered by his brethren? And all those people in the shield hall ready to goto battle for Jon as well. All those are Jon's me. Not bowens. Not the first builder yarwyck. No man in the nights watch has been the leader of so many people for hundreds of years. There will be blood, everyone in the north, everyone in kings landing, everyone in the river lands everyone in the reach better be praying to their gods that Jon's alive because if not the wall IS DOOMED. The free folk don't follow stannis, they pretended to kneel to live that's all they follow Snow. And if Snow Is falling then so is the wall.

[sj4iy]

I think Bran will give us the POV beyond the Wall. I think Jon will end up heading South in order to rally Westeros to fight with him (after he recovers, of course).

[Johnny Snow]

I agree with you about it not being Jon or Stannis, but remember that the show and the books are not mutually exclusive...especially now that a lot of the show's storylines are caught up. The show's obviously going in a different direction than the books, and anyway they're not going to have unpublished book spoilers on the show.

I feel like Jon may do some "warging" to take us to the LoAW...but that's just me.

Why?

They've already shown the Nights King and he's not been seen in the books yet. So the show is going to make its own story up so as not to spoil the books.......I don't think so.

[sj4iy]

Why?

They've already shown the Nights King and he's not been seen in the books yet. So the show is going to make its own story up so as not to spoil the books.......I don't think so.

This. The show is going to finish before the books. The showrunners are working towards Martin's ending and using his notes to fill in what they don't have. They know how every storyline will end. There's absolutely no reason to think the show will be changed so as not to spoil anything.

[Talking Hodor]

The stabs will jolt Jon into his warging abilities - it always seems to be enabled via some trauma of sorts - and he'll proceed to rip out some betrayers' throats prior to detaching from Ghost, reentering his body, and getting his superficial wounds treated. Yes, I believe he's wearing armor.

[have mercedene]

Why?

They've already shown the Nights King and he's not been seen in the books yet. So the show is going to make its own story up so as not to spoil the books.......I don't think so.

We know for 100% certain that's the Night's King? (Correct me if I'm wrong, though). Wasn't that whole scene with the baby added for the show? IIRC that part was never in the book. I'm pretty sure the Night's King was only mentioned once throughout the series so far, and only by Bran. Has GRRM said that the Night's King is definitely going to show up later in the books?

Ok, fine. The showrunners don't care about book spoilers, whatever. According to Benioff, they know the "broad strokes" of the story's ending. That doesn't mean they won't do whatever they feel they need to for the sake of the show to get there. For example, the show killed off Mago in Season 1, even though GRRM warned them that Mago will have an important role later in the series. Coldhands, Stoneheart, Jeyne Westerling - all situations where the show is obviously deviating from the books.

Anyway, who knows what will happen with any of that, on the show and in the books. My point is that you can't use what's happening on the show to support book theories. That's all I meant.

[sj4iy]

We know for 100% certain that's the Night's King? (Correct me if I'm wrong, though). Wasn't that whole scene with the baby added for the show? IIRC that part was never in the book. I'm pretty sure the Night's King was only mentioned once throughout the series so far, and only by Bran. Has GRRM said that the Night's King is definitely going to show up later in the books?

Ok, fine. The showrunners don't care about book spoilers, whatever. According to Benioff, they know the "broad strokes" of the story's ending. That doesn't mean they won't do whatever they feel they need to for the sake of the show to get there. For example, the show killed off Mago in Season 1, even though GRRM warned them that Mago will have an important role later in the series. Coldhands, Stoneheart, Jeyne Westerling - all situations where the show is obviously deviating from the books.

Anyway, who knows what will happen with any of that, on the show and in the books. My point is that you can't use what's happening on the show to support book theories. That's all I meant.

Of course they'll make changes. No one ever argued that they wouldn't.

But they won't make changes just to avoid spoiling the books. And they have more than just 'broad strokes'...they have the author there to tell them what happens. They have his notes. They have outlines. They probably have unpublished manuscripts.

Some people will say "we can't draw conclusions from the changes made in the story!", which really isn't true. Nor is it true that we CAN draw conclusions from it, either. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Some changes will affect the story and others won't. But the truth of the matter is that next season will probably start dropping spoilers, and the season after that- if the next book isn't out by then- will spoil a lot. And the final season (which is pretty much guaranteed to be out before the final book) will have the biggest spoilers of all.

[Black Crow]

Of course they'll make changes. No one ever argued that they wouldn't.

But they won't make changes just to avoid spoiling the books. And they have more than just 'broad strokes'...they have the author there to tell them what happens. They have his notes. They have outlines. They probably have unpublished manuscripts.

Some people will say "we can't draw conclusions from the changes made in the story!", which really isn't true. Nor is it true that we CAN draw conclusions from it, either. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Some changes will affect the story and others won't. But the truth of the matter is that next season will probably start dropping spoilers, and the season after that- if the next book isn't out by then- will spoil a lot. And the final season (which is pretty much guaranteed to be out before the final book) will have the biggest spoilers of all.

Agreed, to which I'll add just a couple of comments.

There's no doubt that for a while the show was wandering off track and that characters like Mago were offed too soon, but in the Spring of last year Benioff and Weiss had a meeting with GRRM in Santa Fe to sort this out and in particular to find out how the story arcs of a number of characters are going to end. As a result although there were still a number of differences, forced by the practical demands of adapting the books, series 4 pretty well got things back on track [and as for Craster's sons, that was in the books all along - see below].

The second comment concerns the supposed demise of Jon Snow. He will not be resurrected for the simple reason that he aint dead yet:

Entertainment Weekly: "So why did you kill Jon Snow?"

George R R Martin: "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?"

http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g/

[have mercedene]

Of course they'll make changes. No one ever argued that they wouldn't.

But they won't make changes just to avoid spoiling the books. And they have more than just 'broad strokes'...they have the author there to tell them what happens. They have his notes. They have outlines. They probably have unpublished manuscripts.

Some people will say "we can't draw conclusions from the changes made in the story!", which really isn't true. Nor is it true that we CAN draw conclusions from it, either. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Some changes will affect the story and others won't. But the truth of the matter is that next season will probably start dropping spoilers, and the season after that- if the next book isn't out by then- will spoil a lot. And the final season (which is pretty much guaranteed to be out before the final book) will have the biggest spoilers of all.

Right, I get it, there will be book spoilers on the show. But I don't understand how you can draw a conclusion on what will happen in the books based on incidences that are unique to the show.

[sj4iy]

Right, I get it, there will be book spoilers on the show. But I don't understand how you can draw a conclusion on what will happen in the books based on incidences that are unique to the show.

Well, I couldn't be certain about it, but I could look at what happened in both and definitely draw conclusions.

Books: Pyp and Grenn get sent off to other places on the Wall.

Show: Pyp and Grenn die in the battle of Castle Black.

Conclusion: Pyp and Grenn most likely will not have an affect on the outcome of the story.

Of course, I could have said that just based on the books alone, but the show helps give weight to it.

The bigger things, though...those are harder to gauge, and I wouldn't really venture a guess about those.

[CountFJM]

Jumping back to the OP, I don't think this is far-fetched. Jon is almost certainly not dead, dead - I side with the theory that he'll (temporarily?) live in Ghost, as foreshadowed by the Varymyr prologue, before returning to his body ("ice preserves"). I don't know the how - a Mel resurrection seems very unlikely just because we've seen The Last Kiss happen with lesser characters, I suspect GRRM has a major twist up his sleeve for Jon that we can't anticipate yet.

My guess has to do with the Bran chapter when he learns to skinchange into the crows, and discovers that one still hosts the spirit of a long-dead CotF. I think something like that will happen with Bran finding Jon within Ghost and helping him accept his nature and his own powers, as Bloodraven did for him. Jon, like Dany, struggled with grief and his own identity throughout aDwD (both Mel and Varymyr confirming separately that his gifts were strong, but he was untaught and fought his true nature). I think it would be a touching plot development and a nice payoff of no Stark children reuniting for like 4 straight books if it was Bran who helped guide him back.

[JonSnowed]

I hope it doesn't happen but I do fully expect the TV show to have major spoilers from the final books. By that I mean the fate of all major characters will very likely be the same in TV and in print, however I accept there maybe some detours as to how we get there.

I'm sure D&D have access to the draft materials George has already written so I believe season 6 will remain close to Winds. If the book is not out at that time then it's almost inevitable we will get spoilers. Thankfully I have a feeling Winds will drop next summer around completion of season 5.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I think Bran will give us the POV beyond the Wall. I think Jon will end up heading South in order to rally Westeros to fight with him (after he recovers, of course).

I agree with Bran. I think we can see Benjen again (maybe not), but it would be odd for a Benjen chapter to just appear without some sort of lead to it. It could be possible that Bran finds his uncle, dead or alive.

[JonisHenryTudor]

As far as the unpublished book spoilers...I am a bit nauseated with all the claims that the books are different. Sure some things will be different but as I have argued in the general forums, D&D have the story from beginning to end. Since they cannot put everything on screen they have to tie point A to point Z, which means changing bits to create a smooth transition from S1E1 to the final episode. This also means that we will receive unpublished events in the shows.

Right, I get it, there will be book spoilers on the show. But I don't understand how you can draw a conclusion on what will happen in the books based on incidences that are unique to the show.

They are unique because D&D have to cut huge amounts of information out to make a cohesive story for the viewers only.

For example. A chef or culinary student understands everything from the ingredients to the final product. The person eating the particular dish only cares about the final product. If the final product doesn't make sense, someone is going to be unhappy. Not the best example, but this is precisely what D&D are doing. They are producing something on a trajectory that makes the final product near perfect. People die earlier then they should, but that might be because D&D are not going to shoot the scene when these people actually die. Or take SJ's example, killing Pyp and Grenn added a significant emotional element to the scene, but we can also assume that they are going to die or do nothing at all. There is also the Gendry/Mel scene which suggests that Gendry will have a role by the end of the story. As we get closer to the HBO version of AffC/DwD, there are going to be a lot of situations that tie into WoW. Many of us guess that Jon's parentage will be revealed in WoW.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I hope it doesn't happen but I do fully expect the TV show to have major spoilers from the final books. By that I mean the fate of all major characters will very likely be the same in TV and in print, however I accept there maybe some detours as to how we get there.

I'm sure D&D have access to the draft materials George has already written so I believe season 6 will remain close to Winds. If the book is not out at that time then it's almost inevitable we will get spoilers. Thankfully I have a feeling Winds will drop next summer around completion of season 5.

Yes. I agree, which is why I have stopped watching the show. I will pick up again with S4 once I have finished WoW.

My concern for the show (which is why I am boycotting it) is that AffC and DwD is either going to end quicker than expected, or it will spend several episodes following Brienne..... Considering the action was somewhat neutralized in those two installments, D&D are going to have to find a way to keep the viewer only crowd into it. This could be done by slamming both books into a season and a half, with the second half beginning with WoW.

But back on topic.

The more I think about it, I like the idea that SJ brought up of Bran taking us further north. Are there any WW trees that far north? Jon could go north, but I am not sure that he will go too far to the north. If anything, I see Jon begin to move to Winterfell. If the books are going to end in 2, then it is time that Martin begins to tie things up; otherwise it will just feel rushed. I think he has already said something to this point already?

I see Jon returning to Winterfell and beginning the "rebuilding process", which ultimately alerts the Stark children. Not sitting in WInterfell ruling the North, but beginning to build an army to resist the Others and making Winterfell his rally point. As much as I like Stannis, ehh this could mean that his end is near. I don't see Jon being able to do this with Stannis there demanding allegiance. I could be wrong, but unless Stannis has a good reason to follow Jon, there could be tension there. But... What better way to lure Ayra home or Sansa away then to make it known that their 1/2 brother sits at Winterfell and has reunited the North under the Starks. Rickon would return as well. This might also explain why Martin meant to call the final book a Time for Wolves, but it also ties into Ned's statement that the lone wolf dies but the pack survives. It could very well be that by the end of WoW, all the Starks are back in Winterfell or, at least, heading there.

[Androme]

Most probably Bran warging into some animal and exploring the lands of always winter.

[sj4iy]

Yes. I agree, which is why I have stopped watching the show. I will pick up again with S4 once I have finished WoW.

My concern for the show (which is why I am boycotting it) is that AffC and DwD is either going to end quicker than expected, or it will spend several episodes following Brienne..... Considering the action was somewhat neutralized in those two installments, D&D are going to have to find a way to keep the viewer only crowd into it. This could be done by slamming both books into a season and a half, with the second half beginning with WoW.

But back on topic.

The more I think about it, I like the idea that SJ brought up of Bran taking us further north. Are there any WW trees that far north? Jon could go north, but I am not sure that he will go too far to the north. If anything, I see Jon begin to move to Winterfell. If the books are going to end in 2, then it is time that Martin begins to tie things up; otherwise it will just feel rushed. I think he has already said something to this point already?

I see Jon returning to Winterfell and beginning the "rebuilding process", which ultimately alerts the Stark children. Not sitting in WInterfell ruling the North, but beginning to build an army to resist the Others and making Winterfell his rally point. As much as I like Stannis, ehh this could mean that his end is near. I don't see Jon being able to do this with Stannis there demanding allegiance. I could be wrong, but unless Stannis has a good reason to follow Jon, there could be tension there. But... What better way to lure Ayra home or Sansa away then to make it known that their 1/2 brother sits at Winterfell and has reunited the North under the Starks. Rickon would return as well. This might also explain why Martin meant to call the final book a Time for Wolves, but it also ties into Ned's statement that the lone wolf dies but the pack survives. It could very well be that by the end of WoW, all the Starks are back in Winterfell or, at least, heading there.

Well, as far as Season 5 goes, I think we are only going to get one season for both books. I know you haven't seen season 4 yet, so I won't say anything specific, but we've already had several storylines move into AFFC/ADWD/TWOW territory already in the show, so I have no doubt we will get through both AFFC and ADWD in Season 5.

I'm not sure how long Stannis is for this world, but I could easily see Jon taking up his mantle at some point, and even being declared KitN (if Robb's will is ever brought up again, that is). I think he will reunite the North, since he seems the best one suited for it.