The Sacred Order of Green Men.

[Carcetti]

There they forged the pact

...so the gods might bear witness to the signing

This makes me think of first-men weddings. With a heart tree present and everything.

Could it be that 'The Pact', was actually a marriagepact between one of the Children and one of the First Men and that the Green Men (and maybe the crannogmen as well) are the offspring of this marriage?

The marriagepact would symbolize the union of the two races and the married couple, as well as their offspring, would be charged with protecting the balance in the world (Ice and Fire). This could also explain why some crannogmen receive greendreams, and maybe even Howland saving Ned's life at the TOJ.

Edit:

I don't want to waste all of my credibility here, and i'm also not 100% on the timelines, but i will go as far as to speculate that the married couple ^ consisted of Azor Ahai (First Men) and Nissa Nissa (COTF).

The name Nissa is of scandinavian origin. The meaning of Nissa is 'friendly elf'

source: http://www.ourbabynamer.com/meaning-of-Nissa.html

Edit II: Ok timelines don't match. Still marriage pact sounds plausible. Also mirroring the possible marriage of Raeghar and Lyanna on the Isle of Faces.

[Hangover of the Morning]

With the magical barrier though how did Howland Reed and Addam Velaryon get to the isle of faces, the only thing I can think of is that either the Greenmen know who's coming to them and can let them pass through the magical barrier or it has something to do with Kings blood. The theory http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96492-a-dragonfly-among-the-reeds-is-howland-reed-the-grandson-of-duncan-the-small/ could be onto something there as if Howland Reed has Targaeryn ancestors then due to his blood he might be able to bypass a magical barrier and obviously the same goes to Addam Velaryon riding his dragon.

I am not really bothered about Howland because he is a mysterious half-magical little green man himself so he'd probably know how to get by but could be that he only achieved his alleged magical abilities at the Island in question.

I don't know who Addam Velaryon is so can't really comment. I don't subscribe to the theory that King's blood has any particular power. I find it kinda offensive and not really logical given that nearly everyone can declare himself a king or that everyone is in some way blood related to some ancient king or queen.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

With the magical barrier though how did Howland Reed and Addam Velaryon get to the isle of faces, the only thing I can think of is that either the Greenmen know who's coming to them and can let them pass through the magical barrier or it has something to do with Kings blood. The theory http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96492-a-dragonfly-among-the-reeds-is-howland-reed-the-grandson-of-duncan-the-small/ could be onto something there as if Howland Reed has Targaeryn ancestors then due to his blood he might be able to bypass a magical barrier and obviously the same goes to Addam Velaryon riding his dragon.

But why would the CoTF or the Green Men care about king's blood, particularly Targaryen blood? We can probably assume that the titles of men are of little concern to them. And the Targaryens have absolutely no connection to the pact on the Isle of Faces as far as we know. In the grand scheme of things, the Targs are newbies while the Green Men have been doing whatever they're doing for more than an order of magnitude longer than the entire Targ era.

We've heard a lot from Mel about the blood of kings being important to her blood magic. But we don't even know what she means or whether she's right. Thus far, she's used blood from only a handful of people. We don't have a large enough dataset to know whether these people's relationship with Targaryens is actually important. Maybe her magic worked because and Stannis and Edric are related to Argella Durrandon (allegedly a descendant of gods and the Storm Kings through Elenei) rather than the Targs.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

This makes me think of first-men weddings. With a heart tree present and everything.

Could it be that 'The Pact', was actually a marriagepact between one of the Children and one of the First Men and that the Green Men (and maybe the crannogmen as well) are the offspring of this marriage?

The marriagepact would symbolize the union of the two races and the married couple, as well as their offspring, would be charged with protecting the balance in the world (Ice and Fire). This could also explain why some crannogmen receive greendreams, and maybe even Howland saving Ned's life at the TOJ.

Edit:

I don't want to waste all of my credibility here, and i'm also not 100% on the timelines, but i will go as far as to speculate that the married couple ^ consisted of Azor Ahai (First Men) and Nissa Nissa (COTF).

source: http://www.ourbabynamer.com/meaning-of-Nissa.html

Interesting. Given how little we know from the text, I'm all for shooting the s*** about the origins of names, etc. Wouldn't it be interesting if the Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa legend and the Night's King legend were actually retellings of the same even from different perspectives? Or retellings of very similar events? Both legends became garbled throughout the years (millenia of retellings will do that!).

[The_Crannogman]

But why would the CoTF or the Green Men care about king's blood, particularly Targaryen blood? We can probably assume that the titles of men are of little concern to them. And the Targaryens have absolutely no connection to the pact on the Isle of Faces as far as we know. In the grand scheme of things, the Targs are newbies while the Green Men have been doing whatever they're doing for more than an order of magnitude longer than the entire Targ era.

We've heard a lot from Mel about the blood of kings being important to her blood magic. But we don't even know what she means or whether she's right. Thus far, she's used blood from only a handful of people. We don't have a large enough dataset to know whether these people's relationship with Targaryens is actually important. Maybe her magic worked because and Stannis and Edric are related to Argella Durrandon (allegedly a descendant of gods and the Storm Kings through Elenei) rather than the Targs.

I agree with you saying we can't say anything with any level of confidence on the topic of the blood of kings being important.

I don't firmly believe that the blood has anything to do with it and I'm more sort of thinking aloud in the hope that some can rule out what I say or develop on it so we can reach some sort of conclusion, but there has got to be something that stops the ordinary person from visiting the isle of faces whenever they fancy. I only said targaeryn blood might be important as I believe the Targaeryns are connected to the song of ice and fire (mainly representing the fire side of things) and I believe the green men are interested in the balance between ice and fire so there might be some areas of overlap between the two, of course I could be entirely wrong but at least then we will have ruled out one thing.

[WeaselPie]

I can't help but think that Rhoynish blood may be involved somehow. One of the only named characters who was (according to legend) able to magically influence the elements was Prince Garin. Granted, we don't know much more about this legend, but the event also created (semi?) immortal unHumans - namely the Stone Men and their Shrouded Lord. The only others we know who can influence the elements are the CotF, and possibly the Others.

Given the Rhoynish devoted to the Greenblood River (that can't be a coincidence), combined with the legends of earth-bending magic. it could mean something.

/random thought. Greensight, Green Men, Greenblood.

Good discussion

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

I agree with you saying we can't say anything with any level of confidence on the topic of the blood of kings being important.

I don't firmly believe that the blood has anything to do with it and I'm more sort of thinking aloud in the hope that some can rule out what I say or develop on it so we can reach some sort of conclusion, but there has got to be something that stops the ordinary person from visiting the isle of faces whenever they fancy. I only said targaeryn blood might be important as I believe the Targaeryns are connected to the song of ice and fire (mainly representing the fire side of things) and I believe the green men are interested in the balance between ice and fire so there might be some areas of overlap between the two, of course I could be entirely wrong but at least then we will have ruled out one thing.

You're right that there has to be something stopping most people from going there, and I certainly don't mean to be dismissive about.

Addam Valyerion is such an oddity. IIRC, there was quite a bit of speculation about whether he had any Valyerion blood at all. His Valyerion bastardhood may have been invented. He came out of nowhere, tamed a dragon, slept in the dragon pit (right before it was raided), and attacked Tumbleton, leading to the deaths of Vermithor, Seasmoke, and Tessarion. Vermithor was allegedly the most powerful dragon in Westeros after Vhagar (Aegon's mount). This guy is connected to a lot of dragon deaths.

I have to wonder whether Rhaenyra was on to something. Addam may have been an agent of the Green Men from day one...

[Carcetti]

I can't help but think that Rhoynish blood may be involved somehow. One of the only named characters who was (according to legend) able to magically influence the elements was Prince Garin. Granted, we don't know much more about this legend, but the event also created (semi?) immortal unHumans - namely the Stone Men and their Shrouded Lord. The only others we know who can influence the elements are the CotF, and possibly the Others.

Given the Rhoynish devoted to the Greenblood River (that can't be a coincidence), combined with the legends of earth-bending magic. it could mean something.

/random thought. Greensight, Green Men, Greenblood.

Good discussion

Nice one. Let's for the sake of argument assume that my theory is correct, and the crannogmen are in fact offspring of the first Green Men. We then know that they moved north to the Neck (probably to help hold back the Andals) and after they succeeded, settled there (in order to protect the North from further invasion attempts).

The same could be true for the fight between the Rhoynar and the Valyrian Freehold. When the Rhoynar were in trouble, a bunch of greenmen offspring went there to help the Rhoynar, and when they didn't succeed, went along with Nymeria to Dorne, and settled in the Greenblood area. The only missing peace of the puzzle here is why would the Green Men send a force to assist the Rhoynar against the Valyrian Freehold?

An interesting coincedence is that these crannogmen type people settled in an area close to the place where the chilren of the forest destroyed a piece of land (the arm of Dorne), same as the crannogmen with the Neck.

Could it be that they foresaw another invasion that would destroy the balance of the world (Aegon and his sisters) and wanted to try and protect one of the easiest invasion routes?

Idk, this is all speculation. Maybe someday I'll try to write up all my thoughts in a coherent matter and make a proper theory out of it

[The_Crannogman]

I have to wonder whether Rhaenyra was on to something. Addam may have been an agent of the Green Men from day one...

Oh now wouldn't that be a twist. So are you suggesting that Addam could have been sent by the greenmen to kill/reduce the dragons, now that could bring a balance between ice and fire from their view. I wonder if there is some link between the Maesters and the greenmen then as they both could be interested in getting rid of the dragons.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Oh now wouldn't that be a twist. So are you suggesting that Addam could have been sent by the greenmen to kill/reduce the dragons, now that could bring a balance between ice and fire from their view. I wonder if there is some link between the Maesters and the greenmen then as they both could be interested in getting rid of the dragons.

This pretty much encapsulates my views on the matter http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/113179-the-gods-eye-conspiracy-part-i/page-2 (Do not read unless you've finished TPATQ and The Rogue Prince. Also, I've meant to update it, but I haven't had time). In short, yes, I think that a certain faction at the Citadel (but likely not the entire institution) and certain Houses are working with the Green Men to enforce the ancient pact between men and children. Dragons were/are a threat to that pact.

[Carcetti]

Oh now wouldn't that be a twist. So are you suggesting that Addam could have been sent by the greenmen to kill/reduce the dragons, now that could bring a balance between ice and fire from their view. I wonder if there is some link between the Maesters and the greenmen then as they both could be interested in getting rid of the dragons.

I was just thinking about a link between the Green Men and the death of the dragons. Haven't finished TPATQ, sounds a lot more interesting now.

[The_Crannogman]

I was just thinking about a link between the Green Men and the death of the dragons. Haven't finished TPATQ, sounds a lot more interesting now.

Well I highly reccommend that once you've finished reading TPATQ you read the http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/113179-the-gods-eye-conspiracy-part-i/#entry5963112 and by Mitbert Strangejoy. Certainly a lot to think about

[The_Crannogman]

This pretty much encapsulates my views on the matter http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/113179-the-gods-eye-conspiracy-part-i/page-2 (Do not read unless you've finished TPATQ and The Rogue Prince. Also, I've meant to update it, but I haven't had time). In short, yes, I think that a certain faction at the Citadel (but likely not the entire institution) and certain Houses are working with the Green Men to enforce the ancient pact between men and children. Dragons were/are a threat to that pact.

Having read your theory it certainly is interesting. There is just one thing I don't quite understand and that is who started the conspiracy. Are you saying that right from the outset there were some Maesters or the Greenmen against the Targaeryn regime and so overtime developed their plan or are you saying it came in later when people thought fire was beginning to dominate?

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Having read your theory it certainly is interesting. There is just one thing I don't quite understand and that is who started the conspiracy. Are you saying that right from the outset there were some Maesters or the Greenmen against the Targaeryn regime and so overtime developed their plan or are you saying it came in later when people thought fire was beginning to dominate?

The pact between men and children dates back to the dawn of days, so I assume that cooperation between certain men, houses, institutions, and children goes back thousands of years. But I don't suspect that they were anti-Targaryen from day 1. They might not even be anti-Targaryen now (probably more anti-dragon than anti-Targ, and Bloodraven himself has targ blood).

There is something pretty interesting about the Targ invasion: it occured immediately after Harren the Black built Harrenhal on the shores of the Gods Eye. Harrenhal almost certainly would have been viewed as a major affront to the pact between men and children. Harren killed countless weirwood to build his massive keep, and he bespoiled a sacred place. The giant towers were a monument to human artifice, standing in stark contrast to the children's unity with nature. On the day he took up residence, Aegon invades and Harrenhal is reduced to rubble, "cursed" from that point forward. Now the massive castle belongs to the bats, creatures of nature instead of opposed to it. Houses come and go, but no one retains the castle, and some curious Houses (which play major roles in shaping Westerosi politics) emerge from nowhere and even identify with the castle's native bat population. It's a bit funky, no? In other words, it's not out of the realm of possibilities that the Green Men themselves invited or facilitated Aegon's conquest to destroy Harren the Black.

I suspect that the Green Men were worried about the dragons because (1) fire is traditionally associated with destruction of forests and the Andal/First Men invasions; CoTF didn't use fire; (2) it represented an imbalance between fire and ice; and (3) there is an apocryphal story about Jaehaerys I travelling north of the wall with dragons to kill wargs, giants, and other such beings. The legend of Jaehaerys' assault on the North puts this event immediately before Otto becomes hand. And you already know what I think about Otto... I'd say that the keepers of the Pact determined that Dragons needed to go at approximately this time.

Three-eyed monkey,

Let me know if any of my rambling turns into threadjacking. Everything I'm writing is directly tied to the Green Men, but it's your thread and I don't want to mess with it.

[Carcetti]

Well I highly reccommend that once you've finished reading TPATQ you read the http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/113179-the-gods-eye-conspiracy-part-i/#entry5963112 and http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/113179-the-gods-eye-conspiracy-part-i/page-2 by Mitbert Strangejoy. Certainly a lot to think about

I definitely will, thanks!

[The_Crannogman]

3. They are a magical entity created by the Children. An invoking of the spirit of the woods. I think this fits better with the whole Green Man symbolism being used by GRRM. Perhaps when you go to seek the Green Men's council, you end up talking to the faces carved in the trees, even if the the voice on the other end of the line, so to speak, is a Greenseer, like Bloodraven or his predecessors?

I'm not certain Coldhands is a Green Man, despite what Bran thinks. The Children had never seen a horse until the first men came so I agree that the elk-riding might be a tradition of the Children, or an amalgam between CotF and FM traditions as Mitbert Strangejoy suggests. Coldhands does seem to be connected to the Children, which could explain the symbolism of the elk, without him being a Green Man as such.

On this bit here, as I said before I like this idea. One reservation I do have as is the wording THE GREEN MEN and the fact they are an ORDER does seem to suggest that they are an actual physical thing. I agree with you they could just be the trees and the answers come from Greenseers but could there also be a bloodraven type set-up at the isle of faces, so could there be greenseers physically connected to the weirwood trees and who have had their lives unnaturally lengthened by magic/weirwood trees/CoTF

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

I also like the notion that the GM are actually spirits of the woods rather than corporeal beings.

Another possibility is that the word "Green" implies discoloration associated with longevity in a corporeal body. When asked why his hands were black, Coldhands attributes the color to congealed blood. It's possible that an animated, eternal body in the hotter, wetter climate of Riverlands would eventually turn green with moss and/or other vegetation. If the GM have bodies at all, those bodies could be nothing more than vessels for skinchanging. (This doesn't necessarily assume that Coldhands is a GM; I'm only using him as an example of bodily changes experienced by the reanimated).

[three-eyed monkey]

I can't help but think that Rhoynish blood may be involved somehow. One of the only named characters who was (according to legend) able to magically influence the elements was Prince Garin. Granted, we don't know much more about this legend, but the event also created (semi?) immortal unHumans - namely the Stone Men and their Shrouded Lord. The only others we know who can influence the elements are the CotF, and possibly the Others.

Given the Rhoynish devoted to the Greenblood River (that can't be a coincidence), combined with the legends of earth-bending magic. it could mean something.

/random thought. Greensight, Green Men, Greenblood.

Good discussion

A very interesting random thought. Nice. How long ago did Nymeria land in Dorne? I can't recall.

Three-eyed monkey,

Let me know if any of my rambling turns into threadjacking. Everything I'm writing is directly tied to the Green Men, but it's your thread and I don't want to mess with it.

No, not at all. We're brainstorming here so anything Green Men related is welcome. I read your theory a few weeks back and it was very good read. A lot to get ones head around but it certainly struck a few cords with me. Looking forward to seeing where you go with it. I certainly think the Green Men have an agenda, and that it is probably related to the balance of ice and fire. But please, feel free to share any of your thoughts on the subject here too.

On this bit here, as I said before I like this idea. One reservation I do have as is the wording THE GREEN MEN and the fact they are an ORDER does seem to suggest that they are an actual physical thing. I agree with you they could just be the trees and the answers come from Greenseers but could there also be a bloodraven type set-up at the isle of faces, so could there be greenseers physically connected to the weirwood trees and who have had their lives unnaturally lengthened by magic/weirwood trees/CoTF

When I first read AGoT I thought they were men, for the very same reasons you mentioned. But by the time we got a few more details from Old Nan via Bran, faces framed by leaves, antlers, etc., it struck me that GRRM is using real-world symbolism and that the Green Men were simply inspired by the Green Man, which really is just an embodiment of the spirit of the woods, a bit like Herne the Hunter or something like that. Considering that the final book will be called A Dream of Spring, then it seems to me that the Green Men will connect to this theme.

Another interesting point to note with regards to the Reeds is that they turned up at Winterfell during the harvest feast, which strenghtens my belief that the Reeds and the Green Men are both working towards the coming winter and making sure there are men left to rise again in spring.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

I looked around at some random literature about the Green Man motif (as per three-eyed monkeys comments). It's interesting, and the parallels between the Green Man and the Green Men are certainly there. I can't say exactly what it means though.

While following one trail to another, I started looking at papers on the Green Knight. There are no obvious connections between the Green Knight and the green men, but one of the translations of the Green Knight's castle -- "Hautdesert" -- stuck out as odd/concidental. One interpretation is that it means "High Hermitage." "Distert" in old Irish apparently means "Hermitage." So the lesson today is that all roads apparently lead to Gerold Emo "Darkstar" Dayne. :P

[The_Crannogman]

I looked around at some random literature about the Green Man motif (as per three-eyed monkeys comments). It's interesting, and the parallels between the Green Man and the Green Men are certainly there. I can't say exactly what it means though.

While following one trail to another, I started looking at papers on the Green Knight. There are no obvious connections between the Green Knight and the green men, but one of the translations of the Green Knight's castle -- "Hautdesert" -- stuck out as odd/concidental. One interpretation is that it means "High Hermitage." "Distert" in old Irish apparently means "Hermitage." So the lesson today is that all roads apparently lead to Gerold Emo "Darkstar" Dayne. :P

Yes I did a quick google and saw the Green Knight, Sir Gawain and others. If what you're saying is true and Hautdesert does mean High Hermitage you get some connection between The Greenmen, the reeds, your Gods eye conspiracy with the whents/strong/hightowers and finally the Daynes now bringing together a collection of some of the most mysterious houses in Westeros